Two guppies near the surface, lethargic...

[corrado33]

Hey guys, I don't know what's going on with my fishies... All of a sudden, today, two of my guppies (from the same tank at the LFS, bought them a couple weeks ago), are staying near the top of my tank. It doesn't LOOK like they're gasping for air, but since I started CO2 I guessed that's what it was. I'm only using a CO2 bell, and when I first noticed it I checked my pH and kH to use one of those charts to predict my CO2 concentration, and it was like 8ppm. Not enough to hurt fish in the least? Also, I didn't think you could get high enough concentrations with a CO2 bell. I made mine out of the top of a bottled water container. I immediately turned off the CO2 regardless, and when that didn't help, I added an airstone. I also did a small 15% PWC. Any ideas what it could be??? The rest of the fish are fine, swimmin around as usual. I haven't checked the other params yet, but I'm gunna go do that now, but I haven't changed all of my filter media recently. About two weeks ago I took out some REALLY old carbon, and replaced it with sponge, then a week ago I took out my old sponge and replaced it with MORE sponge, but I still have the ceramic inserts, and I don't THINK I would have gotten rid of too many of my beneficial bacteria. Going to check now...

Other levels are perfect, 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, 0 Nitrate (ok well nitrate is LOW but that's not going to hurt the fish, it'll give me algae, but won't hurt anything.) I'm not happy with sick fish. Oh, pH 8, kH 10 degrees, didn't test gH but I'm guessing it's 12 degrees, cause that's what it was a week ago when I changed the water, and hardness doesn't just "disappear."

 

[jsoong]

CO2 should not cause fish to gasp at the surface. At typical levels, it should not affect O2 solubility at all, and definitely not at 8 ppm (that is only 2x atmospheric).

If the fish appears to be starved of O2, it is possible that the fish has something affect the gills (perhaps a parasite - eg ich). High nitrites can also cause the inability of the fish to pick up O2, but since your nitrites is zero (and your other fish are fine), that wouldn't be the case.

Another possibility may be swimbladder disorder so the fish cannot sink. <Perhaps air in the gut.> This is common in goldies but not that common in tropical fish.

I would QT the fish to prevent possible spreading of disease. Then watch for other signs (spots, bloating, etc) to guide treatment.

 

[corrado33]

Thanks for the reply jsoong. I'm not sure if it's a swim bladder disease cause they can swim around just fine. If I put my hand next to the tank where they are, they swim away. They look if you look really closely, it looks like they are chewing on something. Their mouths are just... chewing, not opening and closing. It looks like they're chewing on gum lol. I dunno, I can either use a little 2.5 as a QT, or my twenty gallon. I'd rather use the 2.5 as it would take less medication to treat it. I think I'll put them in it, with a small bubbler, do PWCs every day, and see what happens, if they're not swimmin around by tomorrow, I'll see if I should start some Maracyn or somethin.

EDIT: I think it almost HAS to be a parasite. When I bought them they were REALLY skinny fish, I just thought they were young. They haven't grown much, unlike my danios who grew almost immediately. The one is eating, the other isn't, so we'll see what happens. Let's see if I can catch them without stressing them. lol

Alright, I'm off to the LFS to pick up some maracyn II, as the packaging says that's the one to use for internal parasites. I know the medication itself is more expensive than the fish, but that's not the point. I can't bring myself to just give up on a fish. That's all. I'll let you know how it goes. I'm going to use the 2.5 gallon, and I don't have a filter for it, but I'll stick one of the filter pads from my AC in it to give it some BB, and I'll do PWCs every day (unless I'm treating it). We'll see how things turn out.

 

[corrado33]

Got some pics... any ideas???

As you can see this one's doing better than the one in the background of the one pic. He's always been a little black like that, even when I bought him. This made me initially think it was velvet, but again, no other fish show any signs, and my water conditions have been perfect for months...

Oh and I added some Parasite clear from Jungle Lab. I've read very good things online for both internal and external parasites, so hopefully it'll work. I'll repeat the dose in 48 hours if they're still alive. Crossing my fingers... If not I have some Maracyn and Maracyn two and some API Furan II. I just... hate seeing fish sick. It bugs me, it's not like I'd get really upset over it, I just feel bad that's all.

As you can see I bought a small sponge filter for the tank, just for some water movement and to aerate the water. It actually works REALLY well surprisingly, the tank is too shallow for the entire filter to be underwater, but still the water is rushing up and out of the tube. I think when I get my 20 gallon set up, I'll use the 12 for a QT and use this and the small heater I bought for it. I wanted a heater anyway to pre heat water going into the tank, so when I don't have the QT set up, I'll use the heater in my PWC bucket.

EDIT: Half hour later they're both swimmin again, instead of sitting on the bottom. Still staying in one place but at least swimming.

 

[dkpate]

Sounds like it's working. Make sure you still keep the water clean after they are better, since it looks like they have some fin rot going on.

 

[corrado33]

They're both alive and at least attempting to eat this morning. They each ate at least one tiny thing of food. That's an improvement over last night! We'll see how the day goes.

Actually DK, they've always been like that, they've never had "smooth tails". And like I said, my water params have been perfect for... months (well at least ammonia nitrite and nitrate).

Do you guys think I should drop a tablet in my main tank as well, just in case? My other guppies are shiny, and I've always read shiny fish = healthy fish...

 

[jsoong]

It is good they are looking better.

I don't like the way the tails or the dorsals look ... certainly suggestive of finrot. If they were like that when you got them, they might have been sick to start.

 

[corrado33]

Well, I'm starting to think it might be a fungus, as DK suggested in chat. Here are a couple new pics with brighter lighting. In the second one you can almost see the black stuff coming off. Again, I'm not sure if it's their coloring, or if it's a fungus...

DK also suggested Pimaflix and Metaflix (yeah I can't spell), so I'm off to wal mart to get some since she said that they treat "everything but Ich" lol. I think I'll let the parasite clear work it's magic for one more day (as that's one full treatment), then switch over to the Pimaflix and Metaflix.

Any other support for the fungus diagnosis? Oh, and SOMETHING I put in the tank will clear the fin rot. The thing is, in my tank, when I put a different guppy in about a week and a half ago, he had a slit in his tail, probably from being stressed... Now it's cured, so I KNOW my fish don't have fin rot there... Right?

Just tested my water: Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0 (ugh), kH 10, gH 12 If those aren't good water conditions I don't know what is? Besides the nitrites, again, I don't low nitrates would hurt the fish though...

Pics..

 

[corrado33]

UPDATE: I fed them today, and they both swam around pretty actively. Only one of them ate a lot though. The other one only ate one or two pieces (if that), and he has white stringy poo. Not like the normal white stringy poo that people normally see, but this stuff looks like filter floss comin out of him. Any ideas? They definitely seem better than they were yesterday when I put them in there. I think I may have been right with the internal parasites. I'm going to leave them until tomorrow when the dose wears off.

If they continue to improve, I'll keep treating with the stuff I'm using, if they hit a plateau, I'll start Metafix and the other one. I'm going to keep them in QT for a good couple weeks, maybe even months until they're 100% better.

 

[jsoong]

Finrot can develop from stress (decreased immunity). It is possible to have a parasite to start, which stress the fish enough to bring on finrot.

As to fungus ... what people call fungus is really a bacterial infection (rather than a true fungus infection) ... and finrot is a result of bacterial infection as well, so the 2 are basically the same thing & treated the same way.

I tend to agree with you. If the fish is improving with the current treatment. I would finish it and only switch to something else if the fish is getting worse.

 

[corrado33]

Just a quick update. I was workin on my moonlights tonight and I saw them swimmin around. It was the first time I had seem them near the surface in days, so they are definitely improving. (However, twenty mins before that one was pretty much laying on top of the filter, I thought he was dead, I had to poke him to make sure he wasn't..., he MAY have been sleeping, but I dunno) We'll see how they eat in the morning.

 

[corrado33]

Update again, they both ate this morning. But I have a question, should I treat them again with the parasite clear? Today would be the day for the next treatment, so please let me know. They're still not perfect, they still hang out on the bottom most of they day.

 

[jsoong]

I would follow the treatment instruction & finish a full course. It is not good to stop treatment in the middle as that promotes drug resistance in the bugs.

 

[corrado33]

Thanks again jsoong. As of right now, they're swimmin around for a bit, then laying down, etc etc. However, their fins have become more ragged, as the fin rot has become worse. I think I'm going to do a slow 50% water change today, then add another tablet. At the middle of next week I might switch to the Mela and Pimafix to treat the fin rot, after a full course of those, they should be good. I'm playin this one day by day here.

The directions on the Jungle Parasite clear are kinda vague, and only tell you what to do if you are treating for specific parasites. I have no idea what I'm treating for, so I'm just going to treat for a week, and see how things go. I'm not THAT worried about resistant bugs as after this treatment is done, another one will most likely be started, so any bug that may have become resistant, will be wiped out by the second treatment.

 

[dkpate]

If ti was my tank, I would go with the Mela and Pima like I suggested earlier. I would skip out on the Jungle tabs. You are not sure what they have, and they may have 2 things, so the M and P will fix those.

 

[corrado33]

I'm debating DK... I'm doing my rinse/flush right now, so that'll take a good bit of time. After I rinse it, I'll decide what to do. Thanks for everyone's input. Just a quick question though, would you guys suggest putting any dechlor in there? Mine says that it can protect fins as well as dechlorinate? Ideas?

 

[corrado33]

Fish are VERY active as I change the water. They're both swimming around just fine. I'm still probably going to treat for fin rot, but they look great right now.

 

[dkpate]

They could still have the internal parasites, so be careful. Always always use dechlor! They do make some that promotes tissue regrowth (aloe) and one that help the slime coat. I did use the aloe for my bettas when I first got them.

 

[corrado33]

They're doin well DK. I don't does dechlor because I use DI water, so there is no need. I was just asking because some dechlors help with the slime coat like you said. They have been swimming all day. I fed them some frozen brine shrimp today. It's weird, it seems like they have a hard time knowing the food is there. I put it in, but they don't rush the the surface like most of my other fish do. Most of the time, the food goes to the bottom, then I see them picking at it later. I don't know how to feed them other wise. I've tried feeding them smaller ammounts more repetively, but that didn't work either. I dunno, they ARE eating, jsut not normally.

On a funny note, I fed my betta some as well, and he didn't know what to do cause he's used to his food floating. He was like... WTF? Then he flared up and swam to the other side of the tank haha.

 

[corrado33]

BTW DK, it WAS some kind of fungus/ something on the fish. That black stuff was not part of the fish's coloring, it was something bad, because day two of treating with the mela and pima, the black stuff is gone!!! I really appreciate the help guys. You should see how pretty the fish look now, all shiny. Actually, they are a little less colorful than they were with the fungus lol, they're mostly orange, that's ok, I still love em!

EDIT: I think they had both parasites and fungus.