Unexplained deaths? Rummies, corycats

[lagoonlyrics]

I have a 55 gallon tank, upgraded from a 20 gallon 4 weeks ago. 7 white skirt tetras, 4 albino corys, 1 pleco, 1 guppy moved over from the 20 gallon. The old bio filter media went into the new filter, a cascade 300. The old gravel, plants(anacharis, java/flame moss) and driftwood moved over too. After the new tank had been running for 2 weeks and parameters were normal I added a 3" angelfish. The following week I added 9 rummynose tetra.

The day they were added, I noticed that one of the rummies was hanging out at the bottom of the tank and not schooling with the others. It eventually twitched, turned over and died by the end of the day. The following day another rummy died in the same pattern and two more that day after that. The remaining 5 rummys have been stable and normal for the past 4 days. Yesterday morning I found one of the corys dead. This morning 2 more were dead. None of the corys showed any indication of a problem before hand.

Can anyone point me in the direction of what might be wrong? At first I thought that maybe the rummies didn't acclimate well or were a just a bad batch but then the corys died. I was then thinking I might not have given the new tank long enough to cycle but the parameters were normal before and after the deaths.

pH 8.0, KH 120, ammonia 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm, nitrate 10ppm, 76-78F. I've been doing 30% weekly water changes. I alternate flakes, pellets. Bloodworms once a week, fast once a week. Algae wafers once or twice a week.

 

[DavidAl]

If you moved the filter media to the new tank 2 weeks ahead of the fish, and did not produce a source of ammonia to keep the beneficial bacteria alive, the bacteria may have died.

The pH is high for all your fish, minus the guppy. Most of your fish come from very soft water with a 6.0 to 6.5 pH range. This could also be an issue.

David

 

[Cactuspixie]

If you moved the filter media to the new tank 2 weeks ahead of the fish, and did not produce a source of ammonia to keep the beneficial bacteria alive, the bacteria may have died.

The pH is high for all your fish, minus the guppy. Most of your fish come from very soft water with a 6.0 to 6.5 pH range. This could also be an issue.

David

The way I read it, the OP had the new tank running with the stock from the old tank for two weeks before adding newly purchased fish.

OP- was the ph of your old tank 8 also?

Do you see any symptoms of sickness? Eg. Not eating, clamped fins etc? It may be that your rummies introduced something.

 

[lagoonlyrics]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, it was a full move; gravel, filter media, fish at the same time. Ammonia/nitrites were zero after the move and up through to now.

For the ph, we have hard high ph tap here. 8.0 is a little high, 7.8 is more typical. I guess it could be a possibility for the new fish but all the original fish including the Corys have been swimming in that ph for 10 months or so.

For symptoms, the rummies that died hovered at the bottom, didn't school, and were generally low energy until they died. They did eat though. For the corys, I can't say I noticed anything. The first death was a total surprise. I watched the other corys and they were eating and behaving normally as far as I could tell but then two were dead this morning. I haven't seen fin clamping before but from what I've seen from pictures, all the fins on the remaining fish look fine.

 

[DavidAl]

A fish's physiological system performs at its peak when it lives in the conditions it has evolved in for millions of years. It's cell structure is adapted to a certain chemistry. Outside of that, a fish can live, but will do so at an elevated stress level. Over time, this stress takes its toll on the immune system.

I'll chalk this up to a high pH issue.

David

 

[lagoonlyrics]

A fish's physiological system performs at its peak when it lives in the conditions it has evolved in for millions of years. It's cell structure is adapted to a certain chemistry. Outside of that, a fish can live, but will do so at an elevated stress level. Over time, this stress takes its toll on the immune system.

I'll chalk this up to a high pH issue.

David

I see. So high ph would explain both events? It could kill the rummy in a few hours and also kill the corys after 10 months without symptoms? If high ph is the problem, what can I do for the remaining fish?

 

[Cactuspixie]

I have to disagree. While a high ph may have shocked new fish, it doesn't explain the deaths of fish that have lived in that ph for almost a year.
If you want to safely lower the ph, you could put a piece of bogwood in the aquarium or crush some Indian almond leaves and put them in a filter bag.
Just kind of thinking aloud here, but I wonder whether the rummies died from osmotic shock because of the ph, which caused a spike in ammonia during the night, which would have been more toxic at a high ph? By the time you retested your water your bacteria may have converted the ammonia, giving you a zero reading. Or maybe your kit is dodgy?
Hopefully you'll get some more ideas

 

[lagoonlyrics]

Okay, I'm at a loss. Found the guppy dead this morning. Is high pH still a possibility or ruled out?

On the possibility that my kit was not giving me accurate readings, I picked up a bottle of dipstick tests. Results match between tests except the dipstick put the pH at 7.8.

 

[Cactuspixie]

Okay, I'm at a loss. Found the guppy dead this morning. Is high pH still a possibility or ruled out?

On the possibility that my kit was not giving me accurate readings, I picked up a bottle of dipstick tests. Results match between tests except the dipstick put the pH at 7.8.

No. The ph would only have affected the new fish, not your old stock. When was your last water change and what size was it?
What were your numbers for ammo, nitrite and nitrAte when you last tested?

 

[Berylla]

My rummynose tetras and discus are thriving in my Midwest hardwater, high ph 8.0 for over two years. My discus have spawned in this water twice.

Sudden deaths are related to toxins in the water. If you are on city water, they flush their systems with concentrated amounts of chlorine and chloramine from time to time, which will overwhelm your decholor.

You can take a sample to have it tested at your city water supplier for free. You can also buy a chlorine test kit at Walmart or Target in their seasonal aisle where all the pool stuff is.

You can also run carbon in your filter to absorb any toxins in your water.

Also, your water change frequency could be increased to 2x a week. Triple dose your dechlor for now until you know what the levels of chlorine and chloramine are in your tanks.

 

[lagoonlyrics]

No. The ph would only have affected the new fish, not your old stock. When was your last water change and what size was it?
What were your numbers for ammo, nitrite and nitrAte when you last tested?

Last water change was today, of 30%. Before that it was 30% last saturday. Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 10ppm yesterday via the API test kit and confirmed today with Jungle 5 in 1 test strips.

My rummynose tetras and discus are thriving in my Midwest hardwater, high ph 8.0 for over two years. My discus have spawned in this water twice.

Sudden deaths are related to toxins in the water. If you are on city water, they flush their systems with concentrated amounts of chlorine and chloramine from time to time, which will overwhelm your decholor.

You can take a sample to have it tested at your city water supplier for free. You can also buy a chlorine test kit at Walmart or Target in their seasonal aisle where all the pool stuff is.

You can also run carbon in your filter to absorb any toxins in your water.

Also, your water change frequency could be increased to 2x a week. Triple dose your dechlor for now until you know what the levels of chlorine and chloramine are in your tanks.

That's interesting, sounds like a better fit. I'll pickup a test kit and check my water and my tap.

 

[Berylla]

I did a bit of reading and it looks like the "pool" test kits only test for chlorine and not chloramine. Check out these other two tests:

Culligan Water Test Kit - TK-2 Only $6.99

Culligan TK-2 Water Test Kit: Plumbing & Fixtures : Walmart.com

I don't like dip strip tests, but this seems to test for alot of different chemicals

There's also the chlorine/chlormine test kit form INKMKR:
Levamisole, Flubendazole & other chemicals for the aquarium

Just scroll to the bottom. I like this one better since it's a liquid test kit.

There is also this one from Hach:
http://www.hach.com/chlorine-free-and-total-test-kit-model-cn-70/product?id=7640219516

It give you actual readings, not just presence of chlorine/chloramine. However, it's the most expensive of all of them at $75

Here is a really good article about chlorine and chloramine:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/

 

[lagoonlyrics]

I got the HTH 3-way pool test kit from Walmart. It gave me a zero for the aquarium water and maybe a 0.5 for the tap water (barely noticeable color change, if any) It only tests for chlorine though.

From reading this post, it seems like testing the tapwater using the ammonia test will detect chloramine? Assuming that's so, I ran ammonia on the tap and got another zero...

Is it still possible that a chlorine spike last week killed my fish but water changes and time have brought the aquarium and tap water chlorine levels back down since then?

If not, where should I go from here?

 

[Cactuspixie]

How long did you have the cories before getting the new tank? Was anything new (other than water and the new fish) added to the new tank that hadn't previously been in the old tank?

As another poster said, carbon will remove any toxins that may be in your water. To ensure that it is doing its job, I'd change it after 3 weeks.

From the look of your test results I don't think you need to do more than weekly water changes. Retest in a few days time and if your results are unchanged then you are on the right schedule.

 

[Berylla]

I got the HTH 3-way pool test kit from Walmart. It gave me a zero for the aquarium water and maybe a 0.5 for the tap water (barely noticeable color change, if any) It only tests for chlorine though.

From reading this post, it seems like testing the tapwater using the ammonia test will detect chloramine? Assuming that's so, I ran ammonia on the tap and got another zero...

Is it still possible that a chlorine spike last week killed my fish but water changes and time have brought the aquarium and tap water chlorine levels back down since then?

If not, where should I go from here?

From reading the article, I'm still not convinced that a standard ammonia test will read for chloramine. The dip sticks are cheap and can also be ordered for free pickup at walmart.

Another option is to filter your tap water before it enters your tanks. You can purchase a 2 stage filter from RV Water Filter Store:

RV Water Filter Store: Standard Filter Canisters for Whole RV

Skip down to dual canisters. You can put a fine filter in the first canister to screen out rust, dirt, and even bugs like cryptosporidium, the the second stage is carbon. It attaches to your sink using adaptors and potable water hoses that are standard garden hoses but are safe for drinking water. They are usually white or blue color.

You can see it in action from my blog:
Many Hats of Me: Aquarium Water Change System

 

[lagoonlyrics]

How long did you have the cories before getting the new tank? Was anything new (other than water and the new fish) added to the new tank that hadn't previously been in the old tank?

As another poster said, carbon will remove any toxins that may be in your water. To ensure that it is doing its job, I'd change it after 3 weeks.

From the look of your test results I don't think you need to do more than weekly water changes. Retest in a few days time and if your results are unchanged then you are on the right schedule.

The corys were the first fish I bought, so they were in the old tank for 9 months.

From reading the article, I'm still not convinced that a standard ammonia test will read for chloramine. The dip sticks are cheap and can also be ordered for free pickup at walmart.

Another option is to filter your tap water before it enters your tanks. You can purchase a 2 stage filter from RV Water Filter Store:

RV Water Filter Store: Standard Filter Canisters for Whole RV

Skip down to dual canisters. You can put a fine filter in the first canister to screen out rust, dirt, and even bugs like cryptosporidium, the the second stage is carbon. It attaches to your sink using adaptors and potable water hoses that are standard garden hoses but are safe for drinking water. They are usually white or blue color.

You can see it in action from my blog:
Many Hats of Me: Aquarium Water Change System

Okay, I'll look for a chloramine test today. In the old tank I was cutting sheets of filter pad for replacements but I realize that in the new tank/filter I have the stock filter cartridge that came with the new filter, that has activated carbon in it. Could the tap water chlorine spike high enough to overcome both the dechlorinator and the carbon in the cartridge?

 

[Berylla]

The corys were the first fish I bought, so they were in the old tank for 9 months.



Okay, I'll look for a chloramine test today. In the old tank I was cutting sheets of filter pad for replacements but I realize that in the new tank/filter I have the stock filter cartridge that came with the new filter, that has activated carbon in it. Could the tap water chlorine spike high enough to overcome both the dechlorinator and the carbon in the cartridge?

There is a very small amount of carbon in any stock filter you purchase except for the ones for the Aquaclear 100. However, since the water is not pre-filtered with the carbon, it will take alot of time for the water to recirculate through a filter and the damage of the chlorine and chloramine has already been done.

I don't run carbon in my tanks since all of my water is pre-filtered. I suggested to run it just in case the toxin in the water is still present.

 

[lagoonlyrics]

No luck finding a chloramine test locally. Too bad because I was hoping to nail down the problem soon, before I lose anything else. Ordered a test online but I won't be here until the end of the week.

 

[Goldfish loach boy]

I would keep an eye out for disease and get the test kit ASAP

 

[Cactuspixie]

No luck finding a chloramine test locally. Too bad because I was hoping to nail down the problem soon, before I lose anything else. Ordered a test online but I won't be here until the end of the week.

What dechlorinator are you using? If it is prime or safe, by Seachem, then just dose at the rate given for ammonia and you won't have a problem. If your tap water doesn't smell or taste of chlorine you probably don't have to worry.