Unhappy gold fish

[goldiefishy]

Hello!

About three weeks ago I picked up a gold fish from some friends who didn’t want him anymore. He is about 10cm long and 8 months old and up until now has been very active and happy according to them.

So I went and bought a new (very stylish fluval ) fish tank which holds 23L (6gallons) of water. At first he was happily swimming up and down the tank but now seem to just sit on the bottom of the tank with occasional rather crazy spurts up and down the fish tank when startled.

At first I am sure it had elevated ammonia levels because he started developing black spots on his scales which I assumed to be ammonia burns so I did a few water changes over the next couple of days and bought a testing kit. The test now indicates zero ammonia.

I then tested the pH which was at about 7.8 and with pH up seems to have stabilised at 6.9.

I don’t know why he won’t cheer up! He also takes a while to realise when there is food in the tank, and seems to have trouble finding it. I just feed him fish pellets.

The tank also contains Milfoil which is thriving quite well in the tank and some gravel bought from the fish shop.

I’m not really sure what else to do. He came from a tank, about the same size (23L) but with 2 other gold fish and 2 guppies (one of which he ate, hence why he was given away ) and he was happy in there so I’m not sure it is lack of space? Could another fish help? What else could it be in the water making him so subdued?

Any help anyone can give me would be greatly appreciated. I am new to owning fish, and so am open to any suggestions anyone can give me.

Thanks,

Sally

 

[jsoong]

Hi & welcome to AA.

A 23l tank is quite small & you will need a fair bit of work to keep things in balance.

I would suspect that you did not cycle the tank ahead of time. That would account for some of the problems. The unstable pH might be a problem as well.

For a small tank, it would be important for you to do lots of water changes to keep the fish healthy. I cannot recommend a big pwc at this point because of that screwy pH. For now, limit your pwc's to 10-15% until we figure out what is happening to your water.

To really know what is happening, I would like to know:
1. What test kit are you using, what parameters have you measured & their numbers.
2. What is the pH of your tap water? <If possible, the KH & GH as well.> If you let a sample of tap water sit out in a container for 24 hrs, would the pH change?
3. How much water are you changing?
4. Did you check the nitrites? Nitrites is the second toxin in an uncycled tank. This may be causing problems even if the ammonia is zero.
5. What is the temperature of the tank?
6. What kind of goldfish is it? <Single tail, double tailed fancy?>

I would recommend NOT using pH up. pH adjuster tend not to have enough buffering capacity to keep pH stable. If you must doctor the water, you need to add a proper amount of a buffering agent. <pH up is just not a good buffer - at least not if you use according to its instruction.> It is far better to figure out why your pH is dropping before using band-aid solutions.

 

[goldiefishy]

Hello,

Yes, it is rather a small tank. When the ammonia was a problem I was doing quite large water changes (about 30-40%). The last water change was on the 21st of September and i havent changed it again. Perhaps I should be doing it once a week instead of once a fortnight?

The pH has been stable at around 6.9 for the last 7 days so i think it may have stabilised? But the pH the tap water is on the very edge of the pH indicator at 7.4, so it could potentially be even higher. I have taken a small sample of it and will let it sit for 24 hours.

As to your questions,
1. The range of the pH tester is from 6.2 to 7.4
2. The tap water pH is on the edge of the pH testers ability at 7.4 and am still waiting for the 24 hour results
3. The last water changes were about 30-40% because of the high ammonia levels 10 days ago (keeping in mind the tank has only been operational for 3 weeks)
4. The nitrite reading is zero
5. The water temp is about 24C (76F)
6. I think he is just a common goldfish (my profile has a picture of him)

I did ask the sales man at the pet shop re that issue with the pH up and his response was goldfish are dirty fish and will stabilise the pH once we have gotten it up. But then again, perhaps he was just a really good at his job

Thanks for your help so far!

 

[jsoong]

It is better to do smaller pwc's more frequently. In a small tank like yours, you would prob. need to do pwc's twice a week, even after it is cycled. Daily water changes is the rule with goldfish during cycling in small tanks.

It is worrisome to have the tank pH drop like that. Goldfish cannot stand pH crashes too well. <0.2 units is about the max they can handle per day.> They also prefer pH to be in the mid to high 7's.

The lfs is trying to warn you about the pH crash (after a fashion.) Basically, goldfish make lots of waste. The breakdown of the waste (NH3 -> NO3) releases acids. This can drop the pH in tanks that are not well buffered. <A buffer is a substance that resists pH change, usually, it is bicarbonate (HCO3) in the typical water source.>

Small tanks are more prone to the pH drop because there is less water to dilute out the pollutants. I would, however, disagree with your lfs in using pH-up as the buffering agent. Carbonates are far more effective (& natural). Properly buffered, the water should stay in the 7's, like in your source. Dropping down to 6.9 is not actually acceptable. <Well, it did prevent the pH to drop into the 5's ... which is usually the lethal level for golds, so I guess it is doing something!>

Before suggesting ways to doctor your water, we need to know the actual buffering capacity of the source water. A KH level would be helpful. <KH is basically the carbonate/bicarbonate level of the water.> However, tracking the change of pH in the tap water as it sit will give a clue as to what is going on. <You might need a high range pH kit to do this accurately. Or find your water quality report from your water co to get the number .... most water quality reports will also have the KH level as well. (They might call this alkalinity, total carbonates, carbonate hardness, or temporary hardness.)>

If you source water has adequate KH, then maintaining your pH is simply a matter of doing more frequent water changes to replenish the buffers that are used up. <Buffers are consumed by acids, decreasing buffers causes pH crashes.> Otherwise, you might consider using a source of carbonate (crushed shells, crushed coral, etc.) to keep the pH stable.

 

[jsoong]

More reading on water chemistry:
Beginner FAQ: Water Chemistry

I looked at the pic of your goldfish. That is a single tailed variety, prob a fancy comet. Do know that it will grow to 12" or so & really need something a lot bigger (4-6' tank minimum, or a pond). <You can prob. manage it in your 6 gal only for a year or 2. So you might want to start planning ahead.> Given proper conditions, the fish can live for 10-15 years.

 

[Phrozian]

Hi Sally,

I'm also new at keeping goldfishes, I've had my tank for a little over 2 months now, and my fishies have been quite sick . I've learnt quite a bit in the process, and I just thought I might share some of my experiences with you.

Jsoong is absolutely right, water quality is extremely crucial. First things first, I would suggest that you should do an ammonia, nitrite, nitrate test every 24 hours, and correlate that with when you feed him. That way you can plot the changes in the level of those toxins and have a better idea on how these levels change over time. I find that changing water according to necessity rather than schedule is a better way to keep fishies happy.

Also, I've found that (at least, in Sydney) our water supply has a natural ammonia concentration of about 0.5ppm. Although it's not life-threatening levels, but for a fish that is showing signs of lethargy, every bit helps. What I am doing now, is to age my water for a period of time before adding it into my tank. This is what I do:
I have a 25L bucket, I add 4 teaspoons of sea salt (non-iodized) and water conditioner (I use stress coat+, it has aloe vera and helps the fishies a bit more). Fill it up with water, and add perhaps a mL or two of cycle bacteria (Nutrafin Cycle), mix it well and let it sit for at least a week before using it for my tank. I find that the ammonia levels have reduced to close to 0 by the time I do water changes. Now my fishies are much happier and are healing slowly.

Also, find an aquarium, rather than a pet shop. My experiences have taught me that pet shop owners usually don't have the expertise or knowledge sufficient to keep our fishies happy long-term.

Nevertheless, definitely spend some time reading the stickys on these forums, they are a great source of information and I believe the moderators on this forum are doing a great job!

 

[goldiefishy]

Hi Guys, Thanks so much for the advice. I think the problem is, is that he is just far too big for the tank. He is nearly 10cm long excluding tail in a 23L tank. I haven’t tried to change the pH with pH down since the first day we bought it and it hasn’t changed again. It is sitting happily on about 6.9~7.0. And at the prospect of him possible growing to 30cm! I just cannot accommodate him in the future.

Pet shop owners are not helpful! The guy I bought the tank off suggested it could hold two or three goldfish happily.. They also said that a pH of 7.4 was way too high for a goldfish and thus sold me the pH down. But really I should have done better research than I did prior to getting the tank. So for now I think I will consider passing him on to another, bigger home and perhaps looking at some smaller, tropical fish..

I really think the pH, ammonia and nitrite levels are very stable, but I will definitely try testing it in relation to when I feed him and see what happens. I also bought a thermometer, and the temperature is reading between 24~26C and with it coming into summer (living in Newcastle) it’s not going to get any cooler. Those temperatures seem like they would be too warm for a goldfish?

Ill keep you updated on my progress though. Thanks so much for all the advice, this forum has been a massive help!

 

[crushyfish]

Talk about overthinking it, what about a larger tank with a friend. He was used to interacting with other fish and now he is alone. I to have a lone fish and I play with him daily with an aquarium algae cleaning magnet, it is like taking him for a walk. Every living thing needs interaction. Good luck, he is a beautiful fish! -Crushyfish

 

[goldiefishy]

That would be the obvious option.. Except I hardly have enough room in my apartment for this fish tank! And this fish tank cost me a bloody fortune so I want to use it. He is such a cutie though. When he was happy he used to chase your finger along the top of the tank!

 

[jsoong]

I haven’t tried to change the pH with pH down since the first day we bought it and it hasn’t changed again. ...

So you are using pH Down (not pH up as previously stated?) Personally, I think that is worse than pH up. It is a phosphate based buffer & all it does is grow algae, plus making your water pH yo-yo up & down.

Anyways, you lfs is wrong in the pH recommendation. Goldfish do best at 7.4-7.8 pH. Also, most fish can acclimatize to your source water pH (unless it is really bad) without doctoring the water. Doctoring the water is an advanced part of the hobby & simply dumping in chemicals will not give you good results. <It gives good profits to the store tho!>

Since your source water pH is in the mid to high 7's, I see no reason to doctor that at all. I would suggest daily or every other day water changes of 10-20% to gradually bring the pH back to your source water pH. <That is assuming that your source water doesn't change pH on its own sitting out.>

Assuming that the fish shows no other signs of illness (spots, bumps, gasping at the surface, etc), I think it would be best to maintain clean water in the the tank with lots of pwc's & see if he improves. And I do think he will do better in a bigger setup (& with friends ... goldfish are schooling fish), but that would be in the future.

That temp is not too high, as long as there is adequate aeration. My tank temp routinely goes into the 80's in summer without ill effects. you can increase aeration by dropping your tank water level so the filter will make a splash, or add an airstone or other device to agitate the water surface.