Urgent Help Needed Another HUGE Sore on my Oranda's Wen & He Lays on The Bottom :(

[lratledge]

Urgent Help Needed Another HUGE Sore on my Oranda's Wen & He's Layin on The Bottom

In the middle of last night I caught the smaller male chasing this male around the tank. Not sure why a male would bother trying to mate with another male but they both have the white tubercules on their pectoral fins and this guy even has breeding stars!

Note: did a 20-25% WC last night & treated with Seachem Stability and Seachem Prime.

Problem: woke up to find Puffy laying at the bottom of the tank (something he never does) with a huge knot that has a few red dots on the surface of his wen and underneath the tissue appears whiteish. Note that nothing is seeping from the wound as far as I can tell.

All day he's been lethargic and will lay at the bottom of the tank until I approach, then he makes an effort & swims around, but at a much lower pace. Last time he had a "wen pimple" he acted like his normal self. I suspect he got injured during last night's chase.

Took a water sample over to Petsmart who said my ammonia was .5 and alkaline is 80. I use the API kit, so never get to test Alkalinity, but I bought some test strips so that I could continue to monitor. Ph is 7.2, Chlorine is 0, Hardness = 150, Nitrite = 0, Nitrate = 20. Could Alkaline be harming his wound or does this look like a fungus or bacteria issue?

What can I do to help the abrasion & get him back to normal? This is my prized fish and I love him dearly.

Hoping jlk is online & can give me some advice .

Thank you in advance!

 

[jlk]

Hi! Does your Petsmart use strips as well? Your ammonia definitely needs to come down asap. Atleast two 50+% water changes. If your ammonia is .25ppm or higher again tomorrow, same thing again. Alkalinity is definitely not too high and it actually should be higher for your goldies. Stay on top of water changes to keep toxins minimal.

Ok, behavior-wise, it's quite common for another male to chase and abuse anyone and everyone. It's not breeding behavior but dominance and aggression. Weaker males may be targeted. Toxins in the water can also incite more aggressive behavior. Your other male did most likely cause the injuries here but the unhealthy water has caused further issues.

We can try to address the aggressor's behavior but let's focus first on the injured fish. Do you have qt tank? If not, I can offer different suggestions than if you have one.

 

[lratledge]

Yes, my Petsmart uses the strips.

Thankfully I was way off on my Ammonia # (should have written down the fish lady's readings). I just tested using my API kit & it's sitting nicely between 0 and .25 .

Puffy's wound has opened up and looks almost exactly like the last Wen pimple now, with a bit of whiteish tissue protruding. Should I use peroxide or Neosporin on it?

Unfortunately I do not have a QT and Petsmart didn't carry any tank dividers what would fit my 72 gal tank. I do have a breeding boxes, both the hard plastic & the netting types, but Puffy is really too large to fit comfortably in them.

It's just so odd to me that the smaller male (Smokey) would chase Puffy who is literally 2x his size. Previously the chasing went in the opposite direction. Generally Smokey will act sweet & rub up on Puffy - in fact I've never seen any agressive behaviors from him. Do they generally save that for night time? I have an LED light that has a very dim light for night. Would you suggest I leave that on all night?

I worry about doing another WC tomorrow, since I did one last night before he was injured. I don't want to stress him more.

Update: his behavior is much better. He is generally moving about the tank, maybe a little slower than prior to the injury, but spending a lot less time on the bottom (although
still laying there some).

Other thoughts? I bought a bacterial/fungus med but didn't want to use it before checking in with you first.

 

[jlk]

Ok, that's better with your ammonia! I would do a wc tomorrow anyway. Does he also have a wound on his side near his tail? It's a bit difficult to tell from my cell! I may just be seeing a light reflection (3rd pic).

Does his wen issue appear fuzzy or just bubbly and white?

If you notice bad behavior from your little bully, use a breeder box/something similar and stick him in it for an hour or two. Every time you notice the bad behavior, he needs to go back in for a time out. His attitude should improve in no time.

 

[lratledge]

No wound on his side, that must be fingerprints from my daughter on the tank.

How much WC should I do tomorrow & should I treat again with Seachem Stability & Prime or just one of the two??

I love the time out idea for Smokey - it's going into effect tonight. With their delicate fins, should I use the netting breeder box instead of the hard plastic?

Puffy's wen appears slightly fuzzy where it recently popped open - looks like the early stages of the last Wen pimple that popped. This one was much larger/huge though! Should I treat it with peroxide or anything else, or just proceed with a WC tomorrow? The rest of his wen is unaffected, with exception of a single tiny white spot near his gill cover that I believe to either be new wen growth in process, or he's finally getting the tubercules on his gills.

One thing that I am really hoping didn't cause an issue is that I petted his wen gently last night during the WC. My hands were clean but also nice & wet. Puffy approached my fingers, so it wasn't as if I forced him to interact with me. I hope I didn't ruin his slime coat, making this wound worse that it would have originally been . I did not notice any slime coat removed during our interaction yesterday.

 

[jlk]

That's good! Check your numbers tomorrow and do a 30-50% wc based on them. Keeping everything very low including nitrates is important with wen issues.

Ok, the peroxide resulted in a hole last time- if you can manage, a bit of neosporin ointment for tonight and let us know how things are in the morning! Keep the neo far away from the gills and eyes.

The other white spot is most likely a breeding tuberucle- Puffys pectoral fins are covered in them! I am surprised you have not seen them on his gill plates yet!

Time outs work well for most over zealous males. Key is patience and persistence as they figure out pretty quickly time outs are not any fun!

Two things you should consider now would be a product called BioBandage (online or a good lfs) and MediGold or another quality antibiotic medicated goldfish food.

 

[lratledge]

Human Neosporin, right?

Lights on, off, or dimmed tonight?

I will circle back tomorrow with an update. I can’t thank you enough

 

[lratledge]

Medi Gold?

Is Medi Gold the medicated food that you can only buy via Goldfish Connection? Do I feed it to all the fish, or isolate Puffy & let him eat it up?

After placing the human grade Neosporin on his wound, he seems to have a little more spunk. I also isolated Smokey immediately after seeing him chase Puffy a bit ago; he's in the plastic breeder. I may keep him there all night rather than be an insomniac that checks on them throughout the night.

I failed to mention that Puffy has had a normal appetite all day. His nickname is Hoover and he did not fail to scoop up some yummy food tonight. Tomorrow I plan to feed broccoli, their second favorite next to shelled peas.

Some day I'll make it back to Philly; until then, I'd really like to send you a gift. What is your favorite retailer?

Night,
Lisa

 

[lratledge]

Good news to report: Puffy's wound responded great to the Neosporin!! He's alert & actively enjoying his breakfast .

Smokey (the aggressor) spent the night in the breeding box unhappily. First thing he did when I let him loose this am - he chased all 3 other Goldies. Does tank temp impact the aggression? I was keeping ours at ~72 degrees, but upped it last night b/c we are getting a cold front.

I will do the WC in a bit & report new levels; wanted to thank you again jlk for all your help!

 

[jlk]

Glad to hear Puffy is improving!!! That's great news! I think he is just having some very unusual wen growth and being pushed around, likely scraped and bumped it.

Smokey is quite the bully! Lol!!! Take some time to work with him. If he starts chasing as soon as he is released, stick him back in for an hour then let him go. If he starts again, back in the time out box for another hour. Let him go again. Just keep repeating this. Hopefully, he will realize this isn't fun and he will start to run away as soon as you approach. Sounds a bit awful but the point is for his behavior to be modified enough that you only need to approach him and he will stop the chasing immediately because he does not want to go back in the box. Its worked successfully for all but my most aggressive males but it can take a couple weeks to a month+ of repetition. If it does not work after a length of time, unfortunately, your going to have to consider tanking him by himself as injury, harassment and stress to your other fish is not worth it.

No gifts! A thank you is more than sufficient!!! Happy to help you and your beautiful goldies!