Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > General Aquarium Forums > DIY Projects
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 05-22-2006, 10:47 PM   #1
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 22
20 gallon tank missing bottom frame

I recently got a free 20 gallon tank that looks like it should be leak free. I have not tested it since the tank is missing its bottom frame. It still has its top frame, but I am worried about filling it up without the bottom frame. First should I be worried? Secondly what are my options to replace the frame or make a new frame for the tank.

__________________
kitbasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2006, 01:37 AM   #2
AA Team Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Whitby, Ont,Canada
Posts: 2,764
It isn't necessary to have a frame on the bottom of the tank. I have several without frames, including 4 I built. If you are worried about them, place them on a piece of styrofoam. This will take up any irregularities in the surface you are placing the tank on. Either 1/2" or 3/4" will do.
__________________
Join a fish club. Don't have one in your area? Start one.
BillD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2006, 07:20 AM   #3
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cleveland ohio
Posts: 361
Send a message via ICQ to JProx Send a message via AIM to JProx
the styrofoam trick is a myth, in my opinion. it will provide a safe and stable platform between the tank and the stand, but not help with anything else.

your tank should be fine without one, if your really worried about it, you can go to a LFS (not a chain store) and ask them to special order you a new bottom frame. i had to do this for the top frame of a 55gal yrs back, and it ran me about 20bucks and 2 weeks of waiting.

putting it on shouldn't be difficult, just make sure the glass is clean and free of any silicone from the last frame, apply silicon to the inside lip of the frame and insert your tank, after your sure its seated correctly put some weight on the top of the tank, i would think 100 lbs or so would good for this, let it sit like that for 24hrs and you should be all set.
__________________
JProx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2006, 04:56 PM   #4
AA Team Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Whitby, Ont,Canada
Posts: 2,764
The styrofam "trick" is hardly a myth. If you look at a steel stand, it is more than likely that the centre of the tank will be unsupported. A piece of syrofam will compress where the stand is high, until the entire bottom is supported. That is fact, not opinion. It is not the answer for bad installations, but it will do the job of supporting the tank on uneven surfaces.
__________________
Join a fish club. Don't have one in your area? Start one.
BillD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2006, 07:18 PM   #5
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cleveland ohio
Posts: 361
Send a message via ICQ to JProx Send a message via AIM to JProx
i have never seen a steel stand not support the center of the tank. thats where the most amount of downward force is being applied, the furthest point away from any supporting beams. Any commerically made stand (wood, steel, etc) will not have a plank for the tank to sit on, instead just a lip usually about 1/2" for the tank to sit on. this is because the weight of the tank is being distributed around the corners and edges of the aquarium, not the base of the tank, thus there is no reason to support the tank there.

the reason styrofoam does not work on tanks larger than 15 gallons is because of the of total weight of the tank, exceeds the stryfoam's ability to compress and flex, its just compressed. if we dealing with a 10gallon tank and a plank of 1inch styrofoam it should help equalize the downward forces and help the tank find a level plane, within reason. but anything larger than 15gallons; lets say for a 55gallon tank the thickness of the styrofoam needed for 1/16" equalization is massive, somewhere in the ballpark of 5and 5/8" thick. wouldn't it be easier and cheaper just to use a couple of shims on the stand and skip the myth ?
__________________
JProx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2006, 07:41 PM   #6
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: perth australia
Posts: 1,599
forgive my ignorance but what do you mean by bottom frame?
__________________
Dimidiochromis compressiceps,
Astatotilapia latifasciata
Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos
Labidochromis caeruleus
Cynotilapia afra 'Cobue'
Pseudotropheus acei 'Msuli Point'
Aulunocara stuartgranti 'chipoka'
Labidochromis freibergi
Oreochromis mossambicus
Etroplus suratensis
DeFeKt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2006, 07:48 PM   #7
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cleveland ohio
Posts: 361
Send a message via ICQ to JProx Send a message via AIM to JProx
the little plastic piece that seperates the glass of the tank, from the stand. every commerically made tank has 2, one on the top and bottom. most of the time they are 'oak grained' or black plastic.
__________________
JProx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2006, 08:10 PM   #8
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: perth australia
Posts: 1,599
don't suppose you have any pics? i'm really lost on this one..
__________________
Dimidiochromis compressiceps,
Astatotilapia latifasciata
Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos
Labidochromis caeruleus
Cynotilapia afra 'Cobue'
Pseudotropheus acei 'Msuli Point'
Aulunocara stuartgranti 'chipoka'
Labidochromis freibergi
Oreochromis mossambicus
Etroplus suratensis
DeFeKt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2006, 08:27 PM   #9
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cleveland ohio
Posts: 361
Send a message via ICQ to JProx Send a message via AIM to JProx


the arrow is pointing to the black bottom bracing. its also called a frame.
__________________
JProx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2006, 08:57 PM   #10
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: perth australia
Posts: 1,599
aaah ok thankyou.
I suspected so but wasn't 100%

For kitbasher: These have absolutly no structural strengthening advantage whatsoever.
They are purely for looks because people don't like seeing the edges of the glass.
__________________
Dimidiochromis compressiceps,
Astatotilapia latifasciata
Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos
Labidochromis caeruleus
Cynotilapia afra 'Cobue'
Pseudotropheus acei 'Msuli Point'
Aulunocara stuartgranti 'chipoka'
Labidochromis freibergi
Oreochromis mossambicus
Etroplus suratensis
DeFeKt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2006, 07:24 AM   #11
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cleveland ohio
Posts: 361
Send a message via ICQ to JProx Send a message via AIM to JProx
it does a little more (not much) than just offer a better look to the tank, they do offer a small amount of protection, when placing a tank against a hardsurface it acts like a little buffer, but being a little cautious with the tank is usually the best protection.

the top frame actually does add a bit of structial strength to larger tanks, where a center brace is needed. the center brace will keep the water from pushing the front, back panes out (also called bowing) and help hold the tank together. for the record the top actually does add stength the bottom one is mostly for looks.
__________________
JProx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2006, 07:53 PM   #12
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: perth australia
Posts: 1,599
a plastic strip, even though it is angle, will not add any strength to the top at all.
with the bottom the only buffering agent in the equation would be the silicon holding the strip on as they are all hard surfaces barr the glue. As stated, caution is the best protection.
__________________
Dimidiochromis compressiceps,
Astatotilapia latifasciata
Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos
Labidochromis caeruleus
Cynotilapia afra 'Cobue'
Pseudotropheus acei 'Msuli Point'
Aulunocara stuartgranti 'chipoka'
Labidochromis freibergi
Oreochromis mossambicus
Etroplus suratensis
DeFeKt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2006, 10:42 AM   #13
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 477
http://www.glasscages.com/?sAction=ViewCat&lCatID=43
__________________
Lepomis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2006, 02:54 PM   #14
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 22
Thanks for all the replies everyone. For the record the tank has been sitting full of water on my back patio (on some indoor outdoor carpet) for over a day testing for leaks. So far so good.

Lepomis, thanks for the link. Only $1.38 for the frame, and $15 to ship. I think I will just use it without it.
__________________
kitbasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2006, 05:04 PM   #15
AA Team Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Whitby, Ont,Canada
Posts: 2,764
Quote:
Originally Posted by JProx
i have never seen a steel stand not support the center of the tank. the furthest point away from any supporting beams. Any commerically made stand (wood, steel, etc) will not have a plank for the tank to sit on, instead just a lip usually about 1/2" for the tank to sit on.

the reason styrofoam does not work on tanks larger than 15 gallons is because of the of total weight of the tank, exceeds the stryfoam's ability to compress and flex, its just compressed. if we dealing with a 10gallon tank and a plank of 1inch styrofoam it should help equalize the downward forces and help the tank find a level plane, within reason. but anything larger than 15gallons; lets say for a 55gallon tank the thickness of the styrofoam needed for 1/16" equalization is massive, somewhere in the ballpark of 5and 5/8" thick. wouldn't it be easier and cheaper just to use a couple of shims on the stand and skip the myth ?
Much of the above is incorrect. Firstly, you must not have looked at many steel stands is you have never seen one with centre unsupported. I have yet to see one that does.That includes ones I have fabricated myself. Steel is seldom straight. Even square tubing, which is generally better than structural members such as angle iron and channel iron, is rarely straight for any length. In addition, welding deforms steel. I have been fabricating with steel for 25 years, and have had to deal with this in every case.
Not all commercial wooden tank stands are open on the top. If we accept that MDF or HDF can be classed as wood products, they generally have a solid top. A solid top also strengthens the stand strucrure, whether it is necessary to carry the weight or not.
The purpose of styro is not to aid in leveling the tank, only for absorbing discrepencies in flatness. Contrary to what you are stating, the styro will compress until the entire edge is supported. I have 4 frameless tanks (30gals) on steel stands, and the styro (3/4") has compressed on the ends where necessary and the entire bottom edge is supported. You do not want the styro to flex.
Shimming the stand has nothing to do with making the top edge or plate flat, only in making it level. Styro will not make tank, on an unleveled stand, level. That is not it's purpose. It is only there to absorb discrepencies in flatness, and weight distribution. A tank could probably be supported only on the ends if the ends were level and there was no flexing. Still, it would be bad practice.
You are entitled to your opinion, but please, refrain from stating an opinion as fact. Much of what you stated is untrue.
__________________
Join a fish club. Don't have one in your area? Start one.
BillD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2006, 08:06 PM   #16
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: perth australia
Posts: 1,599
Quote:
Much of the above is incorrect. Firstly, you must not have looked at many steel stands is you have never seen one with centre unsupported. I have yet to see one that does.That includes ones I have fabricated myself. Steel is seldom straight. Even square tubing, which is generally better than structural members such as angle iron and channel iron, is rarely straight for any length. In addition, welding deforms steel. I have been fabricating with steel for 25 years, and have had to deal with this in every case.
Not all commercial wooden tank stands are open on the top. If we accept that MDF or HDF can be classed as wood products, they generally have a solid top. A solid top also strengthens the stand strucrure, whether it is necessary to carry the weight or not.
The purpose of styro is not to aid in leveling the tank, only for absorbing discrepencies in flatness. Contrary to what you are stating, the styro will compress until the entire edge is supported. I have 4 frameless tanks (30gals) on steel stands, and the styro (3/4") has compressed on the ends where necessary and the entire bottom edge is supported. You do not want the styro to flex.
Shimming the stand has nothing to do with making the top edge or plate flat, only in making it level. Styro will not make tank, on an unleveled stand, level. That is not it's purpose. It is only there to absorb discrepencies in flatness, and weight distribution. A tank could probably be supported only on the ends if the ends were level and there was no flexing. Still, it would be bad practice.
You are entitled to your opinion, but please, refrain from stating an opinion as fact. Much of what you stated is untrue.
I don't have as many as 25 yrs experience, but being a qualified fabricator myself (engineer - fabrication stream) I can vouch this post is 100% correct.
I really do find it odd however that braces are not put under the centre of the tank.
even though I have a 12mm base on my 100gallon, i would not be putting the 60+ kg's of rock, sand substrate 350kg's of water etc on a steel stand with no central support weither it had styro or not. But that is just my presonal preference. Overkill is better then underkill imo.
The only stand I have seen with central support is this one....

which was custom made with 50mm RHS, and heavily supports the underside of the tank as it is 3 foot wide and in excess of 440 US gallons.

alot of claims have been made in this thread which, quite logically, are untrue, I hope people read the entire thread and not just skim the surface as they might just end up in trouble with their tanks and furnishings.

Matt
__________________
Dimidiochromis compressiceps,
Astatotilapia latifasciata
Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos
Labidochromis caeruleus
Cynotilapia afra 'Cobue'
Pseudotropheus acei 'Msuli Point'
Aulunocara stuartgranti 'chipoka'
Labidochromis freibergi
Oreochromis mossambicus
Etroplus suratensis
DeFeKt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2006, 12:09 AM   #17
AA Team Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Whitby, Ont,Canada
Posts: 2,764
Thanks for the support DeFeKt. Actually, your point about an unsupported span, is agood one. However, whether it would be necessary, would depend on the length of the span, the choice of material, and whether the weight needed to be evenly spread to the bottom for distribution over the floor. So, we could change from 2" x 2" tubing to 2" x 3" to span further, or we could use a lighter walled 2" x 2" if we are adding extra supports. In the latter case the overall weight could possibly be less and still be stronger overall. the one caveat is that everytime you add a piece, you are liable to get some deflection or warping, especially in welded construction. Styro would help, if the frame was otherwise level.
By the way, that is a very nice tank.
__________________
Join a fish club. Don't have one in your area? Start one.
BillD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2006, 12:50 AM   #18
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: perth australia
Posts: 1,599
and heavy to mate,
took 7 of us to lift it through the door, out onto the balcony so it could be picked up by a crane.
he had to have it built inside his house , but without thinking about the overall weight it will be putting on the 100mm concrete pad he eventually sold his unit and bought a ground level house just so he could fill it. sump is 110+ gallons in itself. (Credits go to Chuckmeister from PCF)

Quote:
So, we could change from 2" x 2" tubing to 2" x 3" to span further, or we could use a lighter walled 2" x 2" if we are adding extra supports
In the above example, I would opt for a thicker walled 2x2 and run colder welds.
I've found hotter is not nessicarily better. I prefer to run a little colder and use more wire(mig). It creates a little bit more cleanup but the advantage is less warping with a just as strong weld. more so the case with aluminium.
Using an example of a 6foot long x 1 1/2 foot wide tank i would have 4 legs supporting front and back (8 combined) whereas it probably only needs 6 combined, but like I said, thats just my overkill.
__________________
Dimidiochromis compressiceps,
Astatotilapia latifasciata
Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos
Labidochromis caeruleus
Cynotilapia afra 'Cobue'
Pseudotropheus acei 'Msuli Point'
Aulunocara stuartgranti 'chipoka'
Labidochromis freibergi
Oreochromis mossambicus
Etroplus suratensis
DeFeKt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2006, 09:14 AM   #19
AA Team Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Whitby, Ont,Canada
Posts: 2,764
My experience with MIG has been that it pulls much more than stick, and a lot more thought needs to go into holding the material in place, to counteract the pulling. I tend to overkill also,lol. With regard to the frame in the picture, weld strength is not so much of a concern, because the welds aren't really taking the weight, which is good design.
__________________
Join a fish club. Don't have one in your area? Start one.
BillD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
20 gallon, bottom, frame, missing, tan

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Glass Tank frame Etunes DIY Projects 7 01-16-2010 10:18 PM
55 gallon frame newfishhobbyist General Hardware/Equipment Discussion 0 05-25-2009 04:24 PM
Metal frame (antique) tank willyboy DIY Projects 8 04-06-2007 01:47 PM
Small Bottom Feeder/Cleaner for 6-gallon tank? DarylF2 Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 9 06-28-2006 10:30 AM
hob skimmer and tank frame size? phish7740 Saltwater Reef Aquaria 3 06-23-2006 02:54 PM







» Photo Contest Winners







All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.