Real & Virtual Aquarium - Rebuilt

[Ardeus]

Hi. Too bad I found this forum this late. I decided many things on this project too fast and on 3rd october it must be complete.

Here's the concept: a 840 liter fresh water aquarium with a 120cmx70cm auto-stereoscopic plasma screen right behind its back. The idea is to place 3d stereoscopic film inside the aquarium without the need for any 3d glasses. Real fish swimming with virtual fish.

I made a test with a small aquarium and the images somehow seemed more "substancial" in water than on air, which was a surprise to me.

Does anyone have any idea of the effect TV has on fish? The auto-stereoscopic plasma frequency is only 56Hz.

I'm getting a Malawi cichlid community and I wonder how much affected will they be by the film in the background. They won't be able to see stereoscopically because they will be too close.

Here's one of my virtual fish (this one will not be in this film, it would be out of place). I haven't even started modelling the african cichlids because I'm waiting for the shop to tell me what species they will get.

 

[BillyZ]

I honestly can't say what the affect would be on them. The only thing you might consider is aggression. If the live species you put in the tank views the virtual species as tresspassors or even possible mates you could run the risk of injuries to the real fish as they try to engage the virtual fish.

Just a first thought.

Looking forward to updates and some pictures!

 

[Ardeus]

I don't think aggression will be an effect because they are too close to be able to see the stereoscopic effect, they'll only see a blur that changes as they move, which I think will be difficult for them to identify. But this weird effect you get when you are moving in front of the plasma screen is disturbing, even if for a few seconds. They will be continuously exposed to that.

I hope it doesn't "stupidify" them or make them psychologically unbalanced (tv has this effect on people).

I already know what will be the community:

Aulonocara baenschi benga
Aulonocara sp. nyassae (hansbaenschi red flush)
Copadichromis azureus
Copadichromis borleyi red kadango
Protomelas sp. steveni taiwan reef
Protomelas steveni eastern
Protomelas nemalange red empress
Protomelas marginatus
Sciaenochromis ahli

These species are organized in couples or small harems of adult fish. There will be an assortment of younger fish. This is meant to be an exhibition tank so it will be fuller than I would like. For me this aquarium would be great with just 8-12 fish.

I'll post pictures of the final result. Since this aquarium will be placed at a picture exhibition, I'm going to put two paintings behind the aquarium, on each side of the plasma screen.

I expect to post some images of the virtual fish within the next days since I'll begin modelling them in my free time.

If anyone has any information on the effect of prolongued exposition to TV on fish, please let me know.

 

[thetmaxx]

That sounds really neat, can't wait to see the complete thing.

Sorry I can't help with the effect it will have to the fish...

 

[BillyZ]

I think it will be somewhat "new ground" but also sounds like it will be up for way too short of a period to get any accurate data from to form a real conclusion. The only thing I can think to add would be that if the display behind the aquarium contained a lot of fast movement and changing images, even though the fish won't be able to focus on it, it could cause some stress. I notice from my aquariums over the years the fish to react to movement outside the tank. While some of their reaction may be from transfered vibration through the floor to the stand and tank, some may also be from movement.

I'm also looking forward to seeing the final "product" as well as your conclusions! Good luck!

 

[Ardeus]

The fish will arrive in Lisbon today and will be shipped here in a 3 or 4 days. And then they will be on the tank without video for less than 48 hours. From then on, the plasma will be on from 9:00 till 18:00.

Since it's a large community all at once, I think maybe there won't be many killings.

I suspect they will be a bit "stupidified" too. Like fish in petstores or in places where there's too much movement.

But it's just for two weeks. I think they will recover their old sefves when they leave the exhibition.

For some time, I wanted to do this in a large public aquarium, so this will be a test to the idea.

 

[Blazeherd2306]

I agree, it's a very short amount of time to draw any conclusions if it's due on Oct 3, but I would think the fish would be scared at first, but will soon adapt to the virtual fish.

Good luck

 

[aoplayo]

you should do a tank with it take some tests and then if it works sorta make it real and sell a tank ready for it. if it has no adverse affect on the fish then sell it. but if you do a long term experiment you should tells us cuz that is a cool idea.

 

[Ardeus]

For now it's just a two week experiment. If it works I will adapt the idea and maybe sell it to a small local public aquarium. But the technology will be completely different.

 

[Ardeus]

I installed the aquarium yesterday and the fish arrived today... all 21 of them were in good condition. In the few hours I watched them, they were as peacefull as a goldfish aquarium. No aggression at all yet.

To encourage aerobic bacterial grouth I installed a 60 liters/min air pump. That thing looks like a geyser and the fish avoid the area. I had reduce the air flow to less than half, but even so, they don't like it very much.

I recieved the salts with the fish and while they were floating in their bags already on the aquarium I used one full container of salts which was labbeled for 600 liters. Since the aquarium has a capacity of 850, I thought there would be no problem.

When I measured the PH it showed a bright violet - a colour not listed on the color table, so my guess was that it was well above 9.

I started making water changes (which was quite painfull, since I'm installing it in a museum and I had to make 200 meters runs with a bucket between floors) and it dropped slightly. Any sugestions about controlling this?

The fish seemed fine... they showed good appetite when I tempted them with a little food, considering they've been making a succession of flight trips for a week.

I have a filter already installed and another working in an old aquarium. I was thinking about installing this last filter on the new aquarium when I start noticing the amonia levels raising. Is this a good plan?

I'll post some pictures next monday.

 

[Ardeus]

And I got milky water... I've been reading about it and it seems that it can be a bacterial or algae bloom. I wonder which of these can happen in 48 hours in a new aquarium. I ran accross town trying to find a phosphate test with no luck. Amonia and nitrites are still very low. Another possibility may be the ceramics in the filter, but I don't think so.

The aquarium is in front of a white wall and it casts a bluish tone on the wall that made me consider it was algae. But I guess it may also be due to the different wave length absorption of the water.

The only thing I did was to add activated carbon to the filter.

Although I've read that neither the bacteria or algae bloom cause many problems to the fish, the fog will be terrible for the viewing of the plasma screen at the back of the aquarium.

 

[Ardeus]

Today was one of those mad days where everything is solved on the limit and I did not take very good pictures.

But it worked! It worked better than I expected. Some people were at times confusing the real fish for virtual fish. There was a great deal of movement both from the virtual and the real fish and at time it made even me loose track of what was real and what was virtual.

The book really looked like it was in the middle of the tank and many times the real fish seemed to be floating just above it or reading it . That was the best effect. A great effect were the more slow virtual fish.

The pictures really can't capture the effect though. You really need two eyes to see it.

But the water really makes the 3d images more "solid" looking. Once thing I found important is to match the lighting of the film with the lighting of the aquarium.

I'm not sure about the effect of the plasma on the fish yet. The fish looked a bit "lost" but there was a great deal of people moving around.

I think I will have to test it under more calm conditions when they come to my room in 10 days.

 

[BillyZ]

Well done. i would say it's pretty much impossible to determine the affect on the fish in this atmosphere. With that much commotion and everything else going on there would be no way to seperate the display's affect on the fish from all of the other stimulus.

Happy to hear that things worked out for your experiment. The only advice I would give, is that you should have had the filters and tank set up much further in advance. Even if it's not at the show, you need to cycle the filters and at least some of the water before you're show set up. Freshly set up tanks will often be cloudy as the go through their cycle. Once cycled it's much easier to keep them clear and clean. And you can simply put the tank water into buckets with lids and take that to the show with the tank and everything else. Yes, its a lot of extra work... but it will make your display that much better as well as being that much better for the fish.

Congrats on a successful experiment.

 

[Ardeus]

Thanks BillyZ.

When I first set up the aquarium, I just put a new filter with a product to increase cycling speed. I had another filter running in an older aquarium but I thought that at least the bacterias of the later part of cycle (the ones the convert nitrites into nitrates) would starve in the first days.

So I thought I would wait until I could detect amonia and nitrites in the tank (which happened today). So I ran and brought the old filter. Am I thinking wrong here? I hope not. If the level keep climbiing, I'll do a PWC.

Today, during the morning, they were without film and without people around them. So when I arrived they got scared with every move I made. They also got scared when I turned on the plasma. Some of them even kept looking at it for a few seconds. After a few minutes, they seemed to ignore it.

I think I can only test the effect of the plasma in a couple of weeks when the exhibition ends.

Tomorrow I'll test the tank again.

This are still images from the film. I only had time to model two of the species in the tank.

 

[Ardeus]

I'm experiencing the nitrite spike now. I'm trying not to water change until the middle of next week. The fish show no signs of being much affected. Only the Aulonocara Baenshi looks a bit down but he's not breathing heavily , which I think would be a sympton of nitrites intoxication (he's been the less healthy looking fish since the beginning). But the tank is being over-aerated.

I'm pouring large amounts of bacterias every other day, either directly in the filters and in the water.

I read that the bacterias that eat nitrites are a bit slow to reproduce.

Next week I'll be moving the tank out of the museum. BillyZ, I will follow your advise and try to bring at least 50% of the water.

I didn't notice the amonia spike, but it must have happened, cause I couldn't be having a nitrite spike without an amonia spike before, right? The tank seems to be cycling fast. If tomorrow the nitrites are lower, the tank will have cycled in just a week, since I set up the tank a week ago.

This is all a bit scary cause I can't watch the fish when I want. I hope that the absolutely non-aggressive behaviour has nothing to do with nitrites intoxication. They all look extremely hungry and I only feed them every other day and very little.

But if tomorrow the nitrites are higher, the people at the museum will have to let me do a 40% water change and have the museum closed a couple of hours later, while I carry 10 liters buckets of water up and down.

I can't wait to bring them to my office.

 

[BillyZ]

Nitrites at any level can be very bad. When you say you're "pouring large amounts of bacteria" what exactly are you adding? Some of those products aren't really adding the bacteria, but adding the ammonia the bacteria feed on to help accelerate a normal cycle. If you can post the brand name, and how much you're adding and how often I'll see if I can get some FW folks in here to see if they can offer any advice. I've been out of touch with FW for a while.

Lets see what we can do to keep your tank's parameters in line.


But in regards to the display, they're very intriguing images! I wish I could see it in person. It looks like you did an excellent job in the modeling. What software are you using for the animation and rendering? Without being able to see it myself my perspective may be off a little, but it seems the motion blur may be a little strong. (if you don’t mind a critical opinion)

 

[Ardeus]

I'm adding Cycle from Hagen. Since the tank has 840 litres and each bottle it's said to be enough for 1800 litres but doses should be doubled for new setups, I'm using a full botlle.

I also did 2 things: took media from my old tank into one of the the new tank's filters and built a sort of extra filter with the pourous gravel I also had in the old tank. I placed the gravel behing some tall rocks with 3 large air stones beneath it.

The fish however seem great. Even the Baenchi benga is in a better mood. But no doubt that the nitrites are higher than yesterday.

Should I do a water change? Or should I wait for the fish to "ask for it" displaying any symptons of not being well? Does the intoxication happen fast?

Thanks a lot for all the help.

I only had 2 or 3 days to do the film and I used 3ds max. But I had to generate 8 camera views per frame which is needed for the auto-stereoscopic display.

I did one part of the film with motion blur and the other without. On the still images I posted, the motion blur doesn't look good, but on film it makes it much more smooth. The motion blur was done at rendering.

 

[Ardeus]

Meanwhile, in 3 hours, the nitrites level seemed to drop from 0.8 to 0.3. Can this happen this fast???

While I was taking out the test set, I also took their food out of the box where I keep everything near the tank. The way they reacted made it impossible for me to not feed them. They looked miserably hungry. But I only fed what I considered would be enough for 4 or 5 medium fish (they're 22).

Once thing: In the community, some are vegetarian and some are not. I have two types of food, but they end up eating whatever they can get.

 

[greenmaji]

If your cycling with seeded media (from your other tank) the cycle can be very quick..
I change the water far before the fish respond to stress, check your NH3 and NO2 levels.. if there high change the water regardless of the fishs' behavior/reaction to the stress.

Im with BillyZ on this one.. what software package are you using to do your 3-D modeling?

 

[Ardeus]

On the 13th I will be moving out the tank and I'll do a large water change. After I used the old media NH3 levels dropped slightly to almost zero and NH3 dropped considerably. But if tomorrow the NH3 descent doesn't continue, I'll follow your suggestion and make an immediat water change.

I'm using 3ds max for the films... that's what I do for a living and I do mostly underwater animations these days.

Thank you both