People that don't listen. . .

[Mr502go]

ABSOLUTELY MAKE ME WANNA PUKE!!!

For those that have been following my tank cycling issues using bio-spira, here is the e-mail I sent following my phone call with ms. personality, Emily, at Marineland.

Hello, I'm not sure if I've directed this to the right area, but I would greatly appreciate it being forwarded on the appropriate people.

Over the past few weeks, I have purchased well over $50.00 worth of your Bio-Spira (3-1oz bottles & 1-3oz bottle). I have been trying to set up a new freshwater 10 gallon aquarium. My ammonia has steadily increased by approx .25ppm a day, I have 6 small diamond tetras, and one Bristlenose Plecostomus. I am using a Penguine 125 with Bio-wheel, and have also supplied air via a Rena 100 w/bubblewand.

Friday, when my ammonia was once again at 1.0ppm, I was desperate and changed the water 50%, put in the 3oz bottle of Bio-spira, nitirites remained at 0, nitrates were at 5.0ppm (oh yes, I do have a small Java Fern also), after the water change, my Ammonia was .50ppm, again nitrates were 0, and so were nitrates. Yesterday afternoon I checked my levels again, and they were back up to 1ppm, and my fish were stressing. I purchased some of your White Diamond in desperation, as I don't want to keep upsetting my fish by changing so much water, but have to control ammonia. I cut down on their feeding, to once (a very little bit) every other day.

I heard great things about your Bio-Spira product from experienced aquarists on different aquaria related forums, mainly www.aquariumadvice.com this is why I confidently spent $$$ on your product, which I feel has FAR but lived up to it's reputation. I don't know if the handling of the Bio-spira at my local fish store has killed it off or what, I have no way of knowing, it was refrigerated when I got it, but I don't know if it's always been refrigerated.

I called your customer service, friday evening (actually right before I ran out to get the 3oz bottle), and Emily told me I shouldn't change my water for THREE WEEKS!!! I explained to her that after a few days my ammonia was already at 1.0ppm, the kind of levels she was suggesting would have killed my fish for sure, I can't believe this is how the product was intended to be used. I'm not quite sure how confident I am in Marineland products anymore, and thought you should be aware of the situation.

I would like to know how Bio-Spira is supposed to be handled, how fast does it REALLY work, what is it compatible with, I have other products I haven't added due to questions of compatibility, like Stress-zyme which supposedly promotes the bio-filter.

Please help me, I really need to cycle my tank, and don't want my fish to suffer, I bought your product 5 times in good faith, only to have thrown good money after bad.

In closing I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to read this rather lengthy letter, and to please have somebody that understands your products, and aquaria to contact me. PLEASE HELP

Sincerely,

Robbie J Dix

The reply came from EMILY in tech support. . . AArrrgghh, who was the bloomin IDIOT that forwarded this to her, anyway, her reply. . .

Hello, 1ppm of ammonia is not deadly to fish, as explained in our conversation. Bio spira is not an "ammonia eliminator". It is meant to cycle the aquarium, readings of nitrites & nitrates, means that it is working. These are present from the bacteria breaking down the ammonia & converting them into nitrites, then nitrates. Unless your package of Bio Spira over heated or froze... the bacteria are alive and doing there job. Water changes will not benefit the fish, & can interrupt the cycle. Keep your feeding minimal & be patient and the Bio - Spira will do it's job. Thanks Emily Marineland Tech support


So is it me, or does she just not get it, I understand the cycle already, I also understand that day1=.25ppm day2=.50ppm, day3=.75ppm, day4=1.0ppm and so on, yet she says don't change water for 3 weeks!!! yeah, one ppm may not be deadly but I'm pretty sure the 5.25ppm I'd have after 3weeks w/no water change at that rate WOULD be. Correct me if I am wrong.

This woman seems to totally miss the point. I absolutely loathe people that don't take enough pride in their jobs to at least give the impression of listening. I mean even if you really don't care, at least fake it well enough so that the rest of us don't know you loathe your job.

Grrr, thanks for listening, just had to vent

[William]

Ask to talk to her superior, and continue moving up the chain of command.


Not pet related, but I've dealt with so many people that wouldn't listen that there have been times were I've worked my way up to the regional managers, and let me tell you.. These people don't want to be bothered by something a store employee should have fixed.

So just keep working your way up the ladder, Eventually your going to get your satisfaction

[dralarms]

Sorry to hear about your bad experiance. I too have had to deal with STUPID people, Like the guy at wal mart that told me to set up my tank, fill it with water, put in "start right" and come buy some fish tomorrow. If I knew what he looked like I'd slap him for letting me kill so many fish. I too would call again and speak with a supervisor, who knows I have had to do this and gotten very good results. Also gotten bad but not as often as I have good.

[William]

I know how Mr feels, I have gotten two bottels of BioSpira myself, even put it in a cooler with coolpacks after buying it for the ride home, and it didn't work.

[Mr502go]

William, thank you for that, I thought I was the only one, I'm wondering if my lfs in particular handles bio-spira with less "urgency" than is necessary. I may just try finding another local lfs, and see about getting some bio-spira from them just to try, or maybe I'll order from Bernie.

Currently I've hooked up my backup HOB filter, and it's circulating water through 100% white diamond ammonia remover, so levels went down to .25ppm, so I turned the flow down, and it's been holding there.

The good news is my fish seem more spry.

I can't believe this woman is so heartless, how can she bear to live with herself watching another little creature suffer, when she has all the power in the world to do something about it.

I hope she is born a tropical fish in her next lifetime, maybe the guy from Wal-mart will add her to his collection

[dralarms]

Originally Posted by Mr502go

I hope she is born a tropical fish in her next lifetime, maybe the guy from Wal-mart will add her to his collection

I sure hope not, if so she won't last long either. But that was your point wasn't it.

[cdawson]

I've heard of this happening before, it must be the way the LFS you're visiting handles the product. Try ordering it online, they ship it in a cold package so it stays good.

So is it me, or does she just not get it, I understand the cycle already, I also understand that day1=.25ppm day2=.50ppm, day3=.75ppm, day4=1.0ppm and so on, yet she says don't change water for 3 weeks!!! yeah, one ppm may not be deadly but I'm pretty sure the 5.25ppm I'd have after 3weeks w/no water change at that rate WOULD be. Correct me if I am wrong.

OK, sorry to say it, but, you are wrong...

#1, It takes in upwards of 3 to 6 weeks for even a 10 gal tank to cycle.
#2, She was right in saying not to change water, as you will only prolong the cycle. And in some cases never cycle. Uphill battle forever.
#3, While the tank is cycling, IMO you should not have any fish n there at all.

If you understand the process of cycling an aquarium, why would you buy the products that claim they boost the bacteria in the system, when all of this happens on its own.

I think she was doing her job and quite frankly accurate.

I suggest getting some good books and read about how to start an aquarium and keep one..

[EMS503]

Timbo2 is right on the money, any of these products only help to speed up the cycle not eliminate ammonia, Check the forum for the fishless cycling method.

[Allivymar]

Up until recently I'd have completely agreed with you timbo2 and EMS503. But with the advent of Bio-Spira things have changed drastically. Unlike other products on the market, it is the only one to contain the correct bacteria to cycle a tank. No longer is it necessary to wait 3-6 weeks for a tank to cycle. Or it shouldn't be.

I have done cycling with fish, fishless cycling and have used Bio-Spira 3 separate times. Without a doubt Bio-Spira has been the quickest, safest way to cycle a tank IMHO. In all 3 instances, I have added it WITH fish as per the directions and have never once registered ammonia or nitrites. Each tank was instantly cycled. I never had to do water changes to remove toxic nitrogenous wastes although of course I did (and do) regular water changes to reduce nitrate levels.

I did my research on it prior to trying it; you can check some of it out here: http://www.marineland.com/science/nspira.asp (the scientific papers) and here: http://fishgeeks.com/index.php?name=...ewtopic&t=7372 (personal experiences with Bio-Spira). I wasn't about to subject my fish to a possibly dangerous situation until I could be reasonably sure this was an effective product. My own experiences have borne out the positive results I read about.

It claims to make a tank "fish safe overnight" and "prevents new tank syndrome". In my experience, and in the experience of many others, it has. The issue here is it is not working as well as it claims or as well as it has for numerous others, and it SHOULD be, as per the results of many other folks and the research itself. Mr502go based his decision to use it on those results and the research just as I did. For him to be having the probs he is having is unusual and not par for the course. I agree the woman he spoke to was not helpful, and I too would be asking for someone higher up the line; the product is not performing as advertised. Based on my experiences I tend to think the product he used was defective, and probably exposed to heat during shipping or in the store itself.

As for doing water changes during an initial cycle, I agree that it SHOULD be done if there are fish in the tank if ammonia or nitrites are at readable levels. While it does prolong the initial cycle, there is no reason to subject the fish to ammonia/nitrite. Better to have healthy fish and a long cycle then stressed or dead ones IMHO.

[tkos]

Regardless of the method of cycling the tank, whenever ammonia registers and there are fish present you should take steps to eliminate the excess ammonia. Any extra means that there are not enough bacteria to handle the overload. And the tests that we buy as hobbiests aren't super accurate so doing a water change will still leave a small amount of ammonia behind which will help the bacteria grow. 1ppm is way too much ammonia. The bacteria will continue to grow with less than .25 ppm so why keep the excess around to hurt the fish. Will this potentially slow down the cycle? Yes, but in the long run the fish will be healthy and survive better.

As for bio-spira like Allivymar says, it does instantly cycle the tank and you do add fish right away. So the bio-spira in question does sound suspect and I would suggest going to another store if possible. And I would suggest talking to another person at the company. Often the people hired to work the phone only know as much as the piece fo paper in front of them says. This Emily person may not even have pet fish at home.

[sumphead]

This seems to me to be more of a failed product/customer service issue than a fish issue. It is merely a matter of opinion on how to cycle a tank. And no Bio-Spira does not claim to be an ammonia eliminator. However it does claim to instanly cycle a tank with fish safely added immediatly. It seems in this case that the product fell short on it's promise. One would think that your LFS would stand by the products it sells and back the manufacturers promise. However if your LFS will not not it is the manufacturer's responsibility to back claims they make on thier products. I would stay on top of both the LFS and the manufacturer. If you don't get the response you want, keep moving up the ladder.

There should be no reason to go to a different store or even order online for that matter. You spent money on a product that you as a consumer expect to work as it claims.

I realize this doesn't help much more than moral support, but I wish you luck. Go Get Em'.

R-

[reefrunner69]

Moving to general retailers forum. As this seems to have more to do with Marineland and one of their products than FW fish husbandry.

[reefrunner69]

OK, sorry to say it, but, you are wrong...

Hmmm, this is kind of strong, I don't know about you Tim, but I've never used the product so I can't say whether it works or not. I do not hold much stock in many of the products that promise to cycle the tank instantly, but have had high hopes for biospira.Mostly cause they are working on a SW version. 25 years ago, people would have flamed me for recommending removal of the biomedia in the filters of their reef tanks, they would have flamed us for encouraging people to add 4-6" of sand to the display tank.

Let's try to keep an open mind when new products come on the market, be skeptical, but open minded.

[Madame_X]

I personally don't interpret Marineland's claims to mean that their product "instantly cycle a tank". They claim that it prevents new tank syndrome and makes it safe to introduce fish immediately, but to me that doesn't necessarily mean that the tank is cycled. Their website has a disclaimer that says:

IMPORTANT: BIO-Spira is a "live" bacteria culture that is sold refrigerated and must be kept refrigerated until used. It can not be overdosed. Repeated dosing of your aquarium with ammonia removing liquids (such as BIO-Safe, Amquel, Ammo-lock and Aqua-Safe) can inhibit the beneficial action of BIO-Spira. Ammonia removing liquids should only be used to initially treat tap water. It is normal to have a small (<2 ppm) amount of ammonia or nitrate during the first few days after set-up. These concentrations are not harmful and will quickly drop to zero with proper use of BIO-Spira.

All I know is that I used the stuff according to the directions as a complete newbie on my first tank. 7 fish in a 12 gallon Eclipse. My tank took 2 1/2 weeks to complete the cycle, but my ammonia and nitrites never rose above .5ppm. As per all the instructions and advice I had read, I did not add any ammonia reducing chemicals (i.e. Bio-Safe, Amquel) and I did no water changes until the cycle was complete.

I have to believe that in a tank that small with 7 fish in it, my ammonia levels would have gone through the roof without the BioSpira. I lost no fish and for a newbie starting a new tank, it was a positive experience for me.

Mr502go,

Just as Kevin stated, I do believe I came off pretty strong saying that you were wrong. and I apologize.

I will still stand strong on the fact that I do not believe there is such a product out there, that will cycle a tank in 1 day. It may for the brief moment that the tank is set up, and maybe for the next 24 hours, but the bacteria in the tanks substrate, decorations, and fitration must mature fully, before ammonia, and nitrite can be broken down immediately. These products like Hagens "Cycle" and Marineland's "Bio-Spira" are somewhat misleading when they say that you can add fish right away. Sure you can. You can add them without the additive. At some point, I believe that the "real" cycle is going to take place, and when it does, that little bottle of water is not going to take care of the massive amounts of ammonia that builds up.. This is why the fishless method of cycling is much better... The fish do not have to endure that trauma. When I first got into this hobby, the worst thing I had to endure was patience in waiting for my tank to complete the cycle...

[AtodaJ]

What nobody is mentioning is that Mr502go gravel vacumed up the bio spira he put into the tank.

As I said in the other thread I'm not surprised that Mr502go is experiencing these issues and I doubt very seriously it is due to multiple bad batches of Bio Spira. You can't remove a substantial portion of this product in the early stages of cycling and expect it to work as advertised. The fact that Mr502go is getting some nitrates tells me that there are good bacteria present just not in larger numbers cuz they were taken out before they could migrate to the bio wheel!

Some peeps seem to believe that bacteria are like fish and can choose where they want to live in the aquarium which is not true. Where they are first located in large numbers is usualy not where they will end up in large numbers after the cycling is complete. So just because you have a bio wheel doesn't mean that you can go vacuming and cleaning everything you want during cycling....... especially if you dumped the Bio Spira into the gravel in the first place! 8O

[AtodaJ]

Originally Posted by timbo2

These products like Hagens "Cycle" and Marineland's "Bio-Spira" are somewhat misleading when they say that you can add fish right away. Sure you can. You can add them without the additive. ...

This belief is what I was referring to in another thread.

I'd be willing to bet timbo2 hasn't used this product. Bio Spira is NOT Cycle or Stress Zyme..... that is an assumption on his part (a common assumption granted). I was skeptical at first too but I've used it and it worked like a charm! More importantly, many other users of this forum have used it (as directed) and have reported the same long term successes. That can't be said for Cycle or Stress Zyme cuz they operate very differently and don't work. With science progressing as it has been it was just a matter of time before this break through was made.... it will just take more time for some peeps to recognize it has already happened! Next time you have a tank to cycle give it a try and let us know your experience.

[sweetsuvvyb]

I just wanted to say to Mr 502...you're doing a great job with your fish.

Please don't get discouraged by a couple setbacks, or negative experiences. I think it's important we recognize someone that's doing their research, and learning, and trying, because it's far too easy to just not bother.

Keep up the good work!

[Mr502go]

No Worries Timbo

After doing a lot of reasearch at a number of different sites on the internet, I originally intended to do a fishless cycle. Upon seeing the numerous success stories with Bio-Spira, I decided to give it a try. These success stories came from many experienced aquarists, who HAVE done it the "natural" fishless way. They've done it all ways, and preferred the bio-spira method.

My only qualm is A.) product doesn't work as it is marketed to.

B.) I am being told by a "Professional" to not change my water for 3weeks, even after I've explained not only the current ammonia level, but have also explained the rate of chane in ammonia.

She continually harps on 1ppm not being deadly, obviously to my fish 1ppm, at least for periods less than 24 hours isn't deadly, they are still swimming. My concern wasn't so much the 1ppm, but what it would be after 3weeks with no water change!!!