Walmart's Bettas (Just Read.)

[Ian086]

Originally Posted by Pearly

Dear Desi! You sound like someone I'd love to talk with sometime! You sound like a very kind and sensitive to injustice person, respectful of others, you obviously love animals and hurt when see them suffer... I see both sides, The Activist who stands his ground by not buying from big boxes for the better good and The Individual Tenderhearted Animallover who will once sees the suffering animal, he/she "owns it" and feels responsible for its' well being. Both sides are right and I just wanted to tell Desi something: DO NOT EVER LOSE THIS QUALITY ABOUT YOU! Many of us have started off that way in our youth and then ... Life happened! And we have become jaded by its experiences, cynical, practical....which is all ok and much needed to survive in the "adult world" but we often lose what made us -US, the core of our being which is the most beautiful and valuable thing. Your strong beliefs and system of values is good and based on positive energy (life preserving, service of other beings, caring) cherish it and protect it! D not lose it! It's beautiful! I felt very inspired reading your post. It makes me feel much better about our young generation

+1...
Hi Desi, I think what you are trying to achieve is very admirable and you are a credit to your family. I see completely where you are coming from and completely agree with you. I work for a large multi-national retail company, who DON'T sell pets. Trust me, they only care about profits, nothing else. If you and others can somehow get the message out to the people, that is the best way to stop the sale of these fish and other pets. They will have every inch of the store set aside for sales, if something is not selling->making profit, then it will be quickly replaced with something that does. Hopefully not any livestock. Stores like these are expensive to build, run and staff, so they have accountants working out how much profit every foot of retail space should yield. Also bad publicity is no good for any business, so some kind of petition maybe more useful than buying the 'sick' fish. They do not give a **** who buys their fish/pets, as long as they appear on the sales report at the end of the week.....

[Desi]

Thank you. And I'm going to target two of my local Walmarts (i live in between two towns) and speak to upper management about it and look more into the petition way. I guess it's best to target locally first, but I'm still frustrated that its going on in the big picture. If I see a fish on the verge of death and I can help it, I will. NOBODY deserves to die for any reason, especially an innocent animal. I'm getting with people I know who feel the same, and we'll come up with a plan about dealing with how these Walmarts are taking care of the fish.

[Ian086]

Originally Posted by Desi

Thank you. And I'm going to target two of my local Walmarts (i live in between two towns) and speak to upper management about it and look more into the petition way. I guess it's best to target locally first, but I'm still frustrated that its going on in the big picture. If I see a fish on the verge of death and I can help it, I will. NOBODY deserves to die for any reason, especially an innocent animal. I'm getting with people I know who feel the same, and we'll come up with a plan about dealing with how these Walmarts are taking care of the fish.

As I said I admire you for saving fish you see are suffering. I totally agree that no animal should suffer. We as humans, have no right to create or stand by and let them suffer. I persuaded my lfs, the only one in my town who did sell them(in similar conditions), to stop selling them this way. He has a sign up in the shop now to let customers know he sells them but he only orders them as requested...
I wish you the very best of luck in your quest and please keep us updated on your progress

[Desi]

Originally Posted by Ian086

As I said I admire you for saving fish you see are suffering. I totally agree that no animal should suffer. We as humans, have no right to create or stand by and let them suffer. I persuaded my lfs, the only one in my town who did sell them(in similar conditions), to stop selling them this way. He has a sign up in the shop now to let customers know he sells them but he only orders them as requested...
I wish you the very best of luck in your quest and please keep us updated on your progress

Will do thanks my actual pet store around here keeps them in beautiful conditions, and all of my fish so far have come from there (really love that place, and it's even a chain store!). It really just depends on getting people who really know what they're doing.

[SharpieItBlack]

Originally Posted by Desi

That's exactly what I was saying against. This has done very little. And fish are still suffering. If I see a very ill betta I can take home, I will. For that one fish it matters.

I saw a large, like 8 inches, goldfish stuck in a 10g, with very noticeable mouth rot, ick everywhere, ratty fins, bloody fins.... I almost cried...

[SharpieItBlack]

Originally Posted by Desi

Will do thanks my actual pet store around here keeps them in beautiful conditions, and all of my fish so far have come from there (really love that place, and it's even a chain store!). It really just depends on getting people who really know what they're doing.

My PetSmart keeps bettas like Wal-Mart... so I don't want to buy from there. But there's no where else to go in my city.

[Desi]

Originally Posted by SharpieItBlack

My PetSmart keeps bettas like Wal-Mart... so I don't want to buy from there. But there's no where else to go in my city.

That's sad try mentioning it to someone there?

[Paxlerod]

The problem is endemic through out the Betta breeding business. Check out the videos on Betta hatcheries and you will see that other then when there juvies and in grow out tanks, Bettas spend their life's in cups. The life we created for them. Hopefully for their sake they only have conscious level of a plant. If not how sad indeed.

[Pawtrekker]

That poem made me want to cry. I completely understand your position. A while back I bought two Bettas from my local Walmart that had been carelessly dumped into the same cup and were ripping each other to pieces. It was a miracle I even saw them as they had been pushed to the back of the shelf. I was so mad. A friend of mine went to one of the employees and told them. They made one of the most ridiculous excuses ever, "We don't have another cup for them so they will just have to stay like that." I was thinking THIS IS WALMART! Don't tell me you can't find another cup! No, they didn't care and the poor things were stuck back on the shelf. I had to take them home. If only just to let them die in peace. Both ended up recovering. Sadly, only one is alive today.

I live in a fairly small town and I cannot imagine our Walmart sells too many Bettas but it doesn't matter, they keep ordering them anyway. I know some people say you shouldn't support stores like that by buying the Bettas but when a fish is 'calling to you' for help, it's so hard to leave them there when you know you could make a difference. Even if it's only one little fish at a time.

[aquandrew]

so whats your take on feeder goldfish at the fair? they are living creatures in the same size cups as the bettas sitting out in the hot sun all day. i feel like most people who havent been in the aquarium hobby dont think that fish are an animal with a personality they just think of them like bugs or something thats just there. so they dont really think about the animal suffering because they dont know anything about what it needs. what we need to do is keep spreading knowledge and that will be the best way to help our little fishy friends out because they probably wont stop selling them in the conditions they are

[Desi]

Originally Posted by aquandrew

so whats your take on feeder goldfish at the fair? they are living creatures in the same size cups as the bettas sitting out in the hot sun all day. i feel like most people who havent been in the aquarium hobby dont think that fish are an animal with a personality they just think of them like bugs or something thats just there. so they dont really think about the animal suffering because they dont know anything about what it needs. what we need to do is keep spreading knowledge and that will be the best way to help our little fishy friends out because they probably wont stop selling them in the conditions they are

It's the same situation, and I agree with what you say. This had never been something I thought about really until last year when my county fair was in town, and I saw and started doing a little more research about that too. It's not fair. And not one of those situations any one can throw in the quote about "life not being fair"- that'd just be an extreme form of heartlessness. Puppy mills, bad betta conditions, cock fighting, factory farms, and treating goldfish as a game at the local fair isn't right, along with MANY other ways humans have come to abuse animals.

[Alyxx]

Originally Posted by Paxlerod

The problem is endemic through out the Betta breeding business. Check out the videos on Betta hatcheries and you will see that other then when there juvies and in grow out tanks, Bettas spend their life's in cups. The life we created for them. Hopefully for their sake they only have conscious level of a plant. If not how sad indeed.

The difference between cups in hatcheries and cups in Walmart is the level of care. Bettas are ok in cups, at least for the relatively short time between needing to be separated from siblings until they are purchased, as long as the water is warm and clean. Most of these hatcheries and breeders change the water in these small containers daily, or even multiple times per day. The fish rooms are kept warm so that heaters aren't necessary.

My LFS uses cups half the size of the ones at Walmart, yet their bettas look 10x better. Why? They take the time to change the water daily and feed the bettas properly. Yes, the lack of space in the cups is less than ideal, but it isn't detrimental to the fish's health unless the water isn't taken care of or the fish is never moved into a better container.

Personally, when my betta fry need "jarring" they will be going into 2 liter plastic bottles with the necks cut off. So a little less than half a gallon. But they will also get daily water changes. And proper care. And honestly, I would rather see juvie bettas growing up in cups than left to rip each other apart in a grow out tank.

[Pearly]

Originally Posted by Alyxx

The difference between cups in hatcheries and cups in Walmart is the level of care. Bettas are ok in cups, at least for the relatively short time between needing to be separated from siblings until they are purchased, as long as the water is warm and clean. Most of these hatcheries and breeders change the water in these small containers daily, or even multiple times per day. The fish rooms are kept warm so that heaters aren't necessary.

My LFS uses cups half the size of the ones at Walmart, yet their bettas look 10x better. Why? They take the time to change the water daily and feed the bettas properly. Yes, the lack of space in the cups is less than ideal, but it isn't detrimental to the fish's health unless the water isn't taken care of or the fish is never moved into a better container.

Personally, when my betta fry need "jarring" they will be going into 2 liter plastic bottles with the necks cut off. So a little less than half a gallon. But they will also get daily water changes. And proper care. And honestly, I would rather see juvie bettas growing up in cups than left to rip each other apart in a grow out tank.

Thank you Alyxx!!!! 2 of my rescues of petco dearh row have to be house in 1 gal tanks each, but they are both filtered, planted, dw, almond leaf, places to hide... I test daily till I'm sure tank is stable, change water as indicated, feed them best food I know to give... Speaking of which... What is best for them? Mine get frozen brine shrimp, tubifex, glass worms and bloodworms alternating daily for variety with frozen peas. About once a wk I do the betta pellets or flakes with tropical fish flakes in my community tank. I'm seeking more variety and to be sure they get the best they can. For now all of my fish are plump, happy and completely nonaggressive towards snails, or ghost shrimp or each other. Just trying to figure out right balance of "fed well, vs overfed"

[Paxlerod]

Like I said I hope Bettas have the feeling and awareness of self as a plant. If not how horrible of a life in a cup. Even if its a 2 liter bottle.

[Pearly]

Originally Posted by Paxlerod

Like I said I hope Bettas have the feeling and awareness of self as a plant. If not how horrible of a life in a cup. Even if its a 2 liter bottle.

Their self awareness is definitely more then the one of a plant! They unlike plants have a brain and complete nervous system. They each are unique in their behavior and way the react to the environment. Call it "personality" or whatever else, but I do know they experience fear when threatened and contentment after a good meal when they rest on larger plant leaves or wedging themselves in the clump of christmas moss. All of us fishlovers strive to provide them with best care and create the most optimal environment for them within our own limitations. I'm with Desi on this one. "It matters to this one", I too have. very difficult time "boycotting" or turning my back on suffering animals. No "we can't change the world", and public awareness on this issue is very poor. What I feel compelled to doing is keep working on educating the public, and in the meantime if able .... "Make a difference to this one"....

[Desi]

Originally Posted by Pearly

Their self awareness is definitely more then the one of a plant! They unlike plants have a brain and complete nervous system. They each are unique in their behavior and way the react to the environment. Call it "personality" or whatever else, but I do know they experience fear when threatened and contentment after a good meal when they rest on larger plant leaves or wedging themselves in the clump of christmas moss. All of us fishlovers strive to provide them with best care and create the most optimal environment for them within our own limitations. I'm with Desi on this one. "It matters to this one", I too have. very difficult time "boycotting" or turning my back on suffering animals. No "we can't change the world", and public awareness on this issue is very poor. What I feel compelled to doing is keep working on educating the public, and in the meantime if able .... "Make a difference to this one"....

Fish have all very different personalities and if you've had them, you will quickly learn that firsthand it's just like you and I, the only difference is a language barrier, but body language is fairly the same.

[jetajockey]

Are we swinging the pendulum back into anthropomorphism again? They are not people.

The "it matters to this one" stance for saving cup bettas actually promotes and continues the problem at hand, directly. It's a clear case of supply and demand.

It saved that one fish, and it makes us feel good about ourselves, so if the goal is self gratification then mission accomplished. Is it worth saving one life when you have to step on others to do so?

So you win a small battle to lose ground in the war, and in doing so become one of the enemy that you are so morally opposed to in the first place.

[Paxlerod]

Originally Posted by jetajockey

Are we swinging the pendulum back into anthropomorphism again? They are not people.

The "it matters to this one" stance for saving cup bettas actually promotes and continues the problem at hand, directly. It's a clear case of supply and demand.

It saved that one fish, and it makes us feel good about ourselves, so if the goal is self gratification then mission accomplished. Is it worth saving one life when you have to step on others to do so?

So you win a small battle to lose ground in the war, and in doing so become one of the enemy that you are so morally opposed to in the first place.

I am sorry to say jetta is right. Business for the most part doesn't care what you do with there product. To most of them it's just that product. They want the consumer to get attached and personal with their product. Free advertising. A prior post said it, if we care. We all do are share in different ways. A big way is in education. My sister has a big party coming up and had requested from the decorators to acquire white and pink Bettas to place in center pieces. She wanted ME to type up instructions on what to do with the poor Bettas once the guest took them home. It was her way of making it right. (Reminded me of the Bridesmaid scene where they took puppies home as gifts). Anyways I said no and put a stop to it. Informing her of what a cruel idea it actually was. Buying (rescuing?) those Bettas off a store shelf and placing them in a slow death with people with no intention of keeping them in optimum environment would of been wrong.

[Desi]

Originally Posted by jetajockey

Are we swinging the pendulum back into anthropomorphism again? They are not people.

The "it matters to this one" stance for saving cup bettas actually promotes and continues the problem at hand, directly. It's a clear case of supply and demand.

It saved that one fish, and it makes us feel good about ourselves, so if the goal is self gratification then mission accomplished. Is it worth saving one life when you have to step on others to do so?

So you win a small battle to lose ground in the war, and in doing so become one of the enemy that you are so morally opposed to in the first place.

Alright. Where to start on this one?

It was just said that no, they are not people. BUT, they are living things with feelings and fears and likes. Would you kick a puppy or leave it to fend for it's self in a box of its own waste with no food? I would pray not. There are people that do though, and then there are people who come help that puppy. They're not going to "boycott" it or leave it to suffer for a "greater cause".

It's the same thing, don't say it's not.

Face it, most people here are just saying "lets educate", but hardly are. If a Walmart has bettas, people have obviously been buying them, and still will. Mothers with begging 5 year olds? It's still going to happen. Don't get me wrong, we need to show other people the correct way to treat these fish, but also help those just dying in the meantime. Too many have already suffered.

There is so much more I could say, but I think this was enough to make my point in the most polite way possible.

[jetajockey]

Originally Posted by Desi

Alright. Where to start on this one?

It was just said that no, they are not people. BUT, they are living things with feelings and fears and likes. Would you kick a puppy or leave it to fend for it's self in a box of its own waste with no food? I would pray not. There are people that do though, and then there are people who come help that puppy. They're not going to "boycott" it or leave it to suffer for a "greater cause".

It's the same thing, don't say it's not.

If it's the same, then why isn't someone outraged that they net hundreds of thousands of fish daily to die on boat decks? The analogy just doesn't work, if a dog ate it's puppies we would be appalled, but if some guppies do it, well it's no biggie.

I'm not saying fish are no more complex than plants, but they are different than mammals, and they are treated differently even by the best advocates.

And people DO boycott stores that sell from puppy mills. They don't go in and buy up all the puppies just so the store can get even more mill puppies to sell.

Face it, most people here are just saying "lets educate", but hardly are. If a Walmart has bettas, people have obviously been buying them, and still will. Mothers with begging 5 year olds? It's still going to happen. Don't get me wrong, we need to show other people the correct way to treat these fish, but also help those just dying in the meantime. Too many have already suffered.

But the ones you 'help' are just replaced with more that are left to die, that's the entire point. So you save one while killing 2 more, and promoting the very thing we are against. The argument that they are going to be there anyway is invalid, and this is why. Many big box stores around the country have gotten rid of their live fish sections all together, in large part due to community activism. So hit them where it hurts, in their wallet, and take a stand as a consumer.

This is just my opinion. Saving one fish knowing that you are dooming others and perpetuating the problem is not chivalrous, it is selfish.

You'll always have ignorant people that will buy these fish and not know any better, there's always a portion of the population who will no matter what. That doesn't mean the cause is lost because of them, though, or that we should just take a defeatist attitude about it.