Saltwater & Reef

threnjen · 03-23-2014, 05:20 AM

The stall myth I am interested in proving is that it won't stall because of high ammonia or nitrite levels. I don't really have an issue with having to monitor pH levels as people have to do this already and we regularly solicit this information when trying to troubleshoot a cycle.

What I care about is people freaking out because they accidentally dosed to 8ppm ammonia instead of 4, or that nitrites are off the charts etc. and then people will pipe in that "high ammonia or nitrites will stall your cycle!" I believe this to be false. That is the rumor that I want to squash (if it is, in fact, false)

I did mention that I added baking soda and phosphorus at the outset, this was part of my setup. If I find it needs more baking soda, I could have just added more at the beginning. Other people's water won't pH stall quite as easily as mine does, in any case.
I believe that baking soda and phosphorus are vital additions in a fishless cycle setup and would advocate for them, which is why I started my cycle with them. Most people would just add fish food as their phosphorus though since not everyone happens to have Potassium Phosphate laying around :P

**Caliban07** · 03-23-2014, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by threnjen

The stall myth I am interested in proving is that it won't stall because of high ammonia or nitrite levels. I don't really have an issue with having to monitor pH levels as people have to do this already and we regularly solicit this information when trying to troubleshoot a cycle.

What I care about is people freaking out because they accidentally dosed to 8ppm ammonia instead of 4, or that nitrites are off the charts etc. and then people will pipe in that "high ammonia or nitrites will stall your cycle!" I believe this to be false. That is the rumor that I want to squash.

I did mention that I added baking soda and phosphorus at the outset, this was part of my setup. If I find it needs more baking soda, I could have just added more at the beginning. Other people's water won't pH stall quite as easily as mine does, in any case.
I believe that baking soda and phosphorus are vital additions in a fishless cycle setup and would advocate for them, which is why I started my cycle with them.

Ok please continue :p is just read another article about waste water treatment that says ammonia above 20mg/l will inhibit nitrosomonas. I don't know where it gets it's info from.

http://www.environmentalleverage.com...on-balance.htm

**Caliban07** · 03-23-2014, 05:27 AM

Sorry nitrite nitrogen above 20mg/l inhibits nitrobacter.

Hopefully that will not affect us.

threnjen · 03-23-2014, 05:30 AM

Also keep in mind they always mean Free Ammonia, at least in all the articles I read (as far as I remember)

**Caliban07** · 03-23-2014, 05:39 AM

Yes that one did too.

I'm trying to calculate how much kh you would need to sustain ammonia conversion of 19ppm.

1dkh = 17.85ppm

For every 1 part ammonia used 7.14 parts of alkalinity are used.

Does this mean that 1ppm ammonia used uses up 7.14ppm alkalinity?

**Caliban07** · 03-23-2014, 05:42 AM

If that is correct you would need a dkh of 8 to sustain the ammonia conversion.

I think.

threnjen · 03-23-2014, 05:45 AM

Oh hmmm I have the exact number somewhere on one of my gazillion links. It didn't even occur to me that we could math out the exact correct amount.
This one says 7.1: Lesson 21: Nitrates and Nitrites
So you nailed it.

How do I determine how much alkalinity I'm getting from baking soda (bicarbonate of soda)? I have no idea. But you're right, this is just a math problem, so we should be able to figure it out exactly.

My brain is kind of shut down for the night I think.

**Caliban07** · 03-23-2014, 05:45 AM

19 x 7.24 = 135.66ppm dkh used

8 x 17.85 = 140ppm

**Caliban07** · 03-23-2014, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caliban07

19 x 7.24 = 135.66ppm dkh used

8 x 17.85 = 140ppm

Sorry that should say alkalinity used not dkh that's just confusing units.

8dkh x 17.85ppm = 140ppm alkalinity need to sustain a conversion of 19ppm ammonia to alkalinity.

How much baking soda is needed to raise dkh by 1 then times that by 8

**Caliban07** · 03-23-2014, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caliban07

Sorry that should say alkalinity used not dkh that's just confusing units.

8dkh x 17.85ppm = 140ppm alkalinity need to sustain a conversion of 19ppm ammonia to alkalinity.

How much baking soda is needed to raise dkh by 1 then times that by 8

Grrr to nitrite not alkalinity. I'm laid in bed just woke up. Forgive me.

**Caliban07** · 03-23-2014, 05:58 AM

I just used this

http://reef.diesyst.com/cf/alkalinitycf.asp

I set my current dkh to 0 and my target to one and used baking soda as my product.

J.Mcpeak · 03-23-2014, 06:29 AM

(Check your pm Jen)

Supergummy · 03-23-2014, 07:49 AM

Following this

**Caliban07** · 03-23-2014, 10:41 AM

We also have to take in to account that nitrosomonas are accountable for the production of nitric acid. In not sure just how much yet.

**Brookster123** · 03-23-2014, 11:28 AM

Do you people ever sleep;p hey Jen the issue with the off the charts nitrites... Another member in here just fishless cycled his 75g, seemed to take months. He hit a point, couple weeks, where he was getting consistently high high (4-5ppm) readings of trites, no amm, and maybe 5 trates?? Even after like a 75% wc and no re-dose it would come right back to those levels.. Just thought I'd share. May be pertinent? Prob not though.. You guys lose me fast with these threads:/

jwh0818 · 03-23-2014, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brookster123

Do you people ever sleep;p hey Jen the issue with the off the charts nitrites... Another member in here just fishless cycled his 75g, seemed to take months. He hit a point, couple weeks, where he was getting consistently high high (4-5ppm) readings of trites, no amm, and maybe 5 trates?? Even after like a 75% wc and no re-dose it would come right back to those levels.. Just thought I'd share. May be pertinent? Prob not though.. You guys lose me fast with these threads:/

That sounds like it was me?

IShallNtEatFish · 03-23-2014, 11:49 AM

Had to follow, my biology/chemistry brain won't stay away

threnjen · 03-23-2014, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brookster123

Do you people ever sleep;p hey Jen the issue with the off the charts nitrites... Another member in here just fishless cycled his 75g, seemed to take months. He hit a point, couple weeks, where he was getting consistently high high (4-5ppm) readings of trites, no amm, and maybe 5 trates?? Even after like a 75% wc and no re-dose it would come right back to those levels.. Just thought I'd share. May be pertinent? Prob not though.. You guys lose me fast with these threads:/

Right, my hypothesis is that it was "something else" that stalled it and not the high nitrites specifically. It's not that I don't believe in stalls, I just don't believe that they are caused BY the high nitrites or ammonia.
I mean whenever people say "high nitrites stall your cycle!" why do they say or think that? I know that they don't know, that is just the info that gets passed around and around and around. I think it's a problem of correlation without causation. Cycle stalls, people blame high nitrites or ammonia, but is there PROOF of this or is it just what everyone "knows" and perpetuates?