Experiment: Extreme cycle
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threnjen
Aquarium Advice Addict
He doesn't have any 
He and I were discussing how to get him some but the shipping part of the equation makes it silly expensive.
Experiment updates for the last couple days - just holding as far as I can tell. It could be stalled. I am not prepared to declare it stalled without a very protracted period, however. I will wait it out.
He and I were discussing how to get him some but the shipping part of the equation makes it silly expensive.Experiment updates for the last couple days - just holding as far as I can tell. It could be stalled. I am not prepared to declare it stalled without a very protracted period, however. I will wait it out.
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
Hi tommy didn't see your post. It's very difficult to obtain here. I phoned the local builders merchant and he said he reckons you can't get it here because you can make bombs with it or something.
You will see soon enough that all the quality stuff you need in this hobby are in America.
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
He doesn't have any
Experiment updates for the last couple days - just holding as far as I can tell. It could be stalled. I am not prepared to declare it stalled without a very protracted period, however. I will wait it out.
Interesting. If it stalls what are we gonna do? Gulp!
If it did...why?
OP
OP
threnjen
Aquarium Advice Addict
Yeah I'm definitely not ready to declare it stalled yet. I'm hoping that things are just so off the chart that I'm not noticing minor changes (crossing my fingers)
I've been doing 1/20th reductions but still not getting much useful. Nitrites seem higher than mathematically allowed, but that's not news.
I'm still giving it at least another 7 days before I take action. I won't take action lightly and contaminate the experiment.
...Bless my kid, the patience of a saint
I've been doing 1/20th reductions but still not getting much useful. Nitrites seem higher than mathematically allowed, but that's not news.
I'm still giving it at least another 7 days before I take action. I won't take action lightly and contaminate the experiment.
...Bless my kid, the patience of a saint
OP
OP
threnjen
Aquarium Advice Addict
Still holding.
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
'6 days to go
OP
OP
threnjen
Aquarium Advice Addict
5 actually, I skipped reporting yesterday.
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
Did you check the cycling thread when you have advice on how to cycle. Someone on there said its to do with balance in the aquarium or something
OP
OP
threnjen
Aquarium Advice Addict
Yes but that was mostly a lot of words that didn't make a lot of sense to me really.
I do want to avoid intervention for a reason though.
I do want to avoid intervention for a reason though.
i think your levels got too high and you're stuck in a situation where the nitrates are being converted back into nitrites at about the same rate as nitrite to nitrate (essentially multiple good kinds of bacteria populations that are kind of working against what you want)....do a water change and add some fish food...wait a week do another change and you should be on track.
...if you don't want to do anything then it will eventually sort itself out...it just may take a little longer (would be nice to have a few tanks going and treat them differently to see)
...if you don't want to do anything then it will eventually sort itself out...it just may take a little longer (would be nice to have a few tanks going and treat them differently to see)
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
I was under the impression that denitrification was carried out by heterotrophic bacteria in very low to no oxygen environments?
OP
OP
threnjen
Aquarium Advice Addict
I mean no disrespect to ask this, it's just because I don't know you. What's your basis for these claims? Are you a biologist or other scientist (excellent, we could use one of those), or a researcher (either officially or just hobby), or what? Have you read papers that support these claims? I'm interested, but I've certainly never heard of denitrification occurring in in aquaria in anything except an anoxic environment (such as a deep sand bed specifically created to provide denitrification)
I would definitely find it hard to believe without some harder evidence of possibility that my cycling aquarium has a denitrifying colony.
Again I mean no disrespect - but this is a rather bold (and new) claim to me. You'll have to forgive my skepticism.
I'm trying to complete this specifically without a water change to prove it can be done. I don't need to add fish food, I am assuming that suggestion was for the addition of phosphorus which I dosed dry.
I would definitely find it hard to believe without some harder evidence of possibility that my cycling aquarium has a denitrifying colony.
Again I mean no disrespect - but this is a rather bold (and new) claim to me. You'll have to forgive my skepticism.
I'm trying to complete this specifically without a water change to prove it can be done. I don't need to add fish food, I am assuming that suggestion was for the addition of phosphorus which I dosed dry.
Ph.D in soil chemistry
yes it does require low oxygen (not large oxygen void areas), but.......
nitrogen cycle goes in all directions at all times...here's why....with all of the processes going on in the tank (many use oxygen, think decomp-->eutrophication..P has an important role here too) and even with high oxygen and good water movement you can get microenvironments...
what has happened (probably...I DON'T KNOW...i'm guessing it's a hypothesis, there could be and probably is a ton of other factors) is that you have so much of it that there is a lot of oxygen being used and therefore are lots of these microenviroments that it's converting just enough nitrate (not just back to nitrite but to other forms as well...enough to cause a headache...in some stagnant systems nitrate is kept down because it is converted to inert materials, used by plants, denitrified and exchanged with the atmosphere...denitrifying bacteria do this and it can be exchaned with the atmosphere...going from nitrite can also be converted and exchanged...plants use many forms of N...
what i think would be cool is if you could establish an aquarium that could remove all nitrates on its own without water changes...
some things to thinks about
New pathways for ammonia conversion in soil and aquatic systems - Springer#
Modeling of nitrate and bromate in a seawater aquarium
Nitrite disrupts multiple physiological functions in aquatic animals
Nitrate toxicity to aquatic animals: a review with new data for freshwater invertebrates
Nitrate Removal in Aquariums by Immobilized Pseudomonas - Tal - 2008 - Biotechnology Progress - Wiley Online Library
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
Removal of nitrate in aquaria by means of electrochemically generated hydrogen gas as electron donor for biological denitrification
yes it does require low oxygen (not large oxygen void areas), but.......
nitrogen cycle goes in all directions at all times...here's why....with all of the processes going on in the tank (many use oxygen, think decomp-->eutrophication..P has an important role here too) and even with high oxygen and good water movement you can get microenvironments...
what has happened (probably...I DON'T KNOW...i'm guessing it's a hypothesis, there could be and probably is a ton of other factors) is that you have so much of it that there is a lot of oxygen being used and therefore are lots of these microenviroments that it's converting just enough nitrate (not just back to nitrite but to other forms as well...enough to cause a headache...in some stagnant systems nitrate is kept down because it is converted to inert materials, used by plants, denitrified and exchanged with the atmosphere...denitrifying bacteria do this and it can be exchaned with the atmosphere...going from nitrite can also be converted and exchanged...plants use many forms of N...
what i think would be cool is if you could establish an aquarium that could remove all nitrates on its own without water changes...
some things to thinks about
New pathways for ammonia conversion in soil and aquatic systems - Springer#
Modeling of nitrate and bromate in a seawater aquarium
Nitrite disrupts multiple physiological functions in aquatic animals
Nitrate toxicity to aquatic animals: a review with new data for freshwater invertebrates
Nitrate Removal in Aquariums by Immobilized Pseudomonas - Tal - 2008 - Biotechnology Progress - Wiley Online Library
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
Removal of nitrate in aquaria by means of electrochemically generated hydrogen gas as electron donor for biological denitrification
venymae
Aquarium Advice Addict
Free crazy water chemistry course/experiment on AA
brought to you by:
threnjen, caliban, and various guest lecturers.
brought to you by:
threnjen, caliban, and various guest lecturers.
maybe this is simpler
in aquariums we keep a low overall nitrogen concentration [ ] that you would find in most healthy natural systems.
this gives the appearance that with little test kits we can "watch" all of our n (this is no where close to showing what's going on).
when doing a fishless cycle you build up a large n [ ].
as with oxygen, carbon dioxide, exc...n is exchanged between water and the atmosphere. so even without us adding n, it will be brought in naturaly...just not enough and fast enough to cycle a tank.
water is a good place for our fixed n to be converted back into n2 and returned to the atmosphere due to dissolved oxygen [ ].
everything is in chaos all the time...and everything is trying to reach equilibrium all the time...so, everything is always changing and that goal of equilibrium is always adjusting based on what changes are happening in the system...
so when you throw a **** ton of n into a system, all kinds of **** happens while the systems tries to find equilibrium...
nothing i said was bold or new (very far from it)...just some things that weren't considered as factors.
without removing high [ ] n water and replacing it with low [ ] n water, it's going to be a waiting game....
the grand solution...monitor your additions of n closer, and base additions on conversion rates, wait it out, or do water changes. there will be no grand one size fits all follow this dosing yada yada yada...
if you want a process for from scratch fishless cycling you have to base everything off of process rates, not a time line...i would like to see all of this "daily dosing" stuff end...it seems that's one of the most common links in all "stalled" cycle problems...
in aquariums we keep a low overall nitrogen
concentration [ ] that you would find in most healthy natural systems. this gives the appearance that with little test kits we can "watch" all of our n (this is no where close to showing what's going on).
when doing a fishless cycle you build up a large n [ ].
as with oxygen, carbon dioxide, exc...n is exchanged between water and the atmosphere. so even without us adding n, it will be brought in naturaly...just not enough and fast enough to cycle a tank.
water is a good place for our fixed n to be converted back into n2 and returned to the atmosphere due to dissolved oxygen [ ].
everything is in chaos all the time...and everything is trying to reach equilibrium all the time...so, everything is always changing and that goal of equilibrium is always adjusting based on what changes are happening in the system...
so when you throw a **** ton of n into a system, all kinds of **** happens while the systems tries to find equilibrium...
nothing i said was bold or new (very far from it)...just some things that weren't considered as factors.
without removing high [ ] n water and replacing it with low [ ] n water, it's going to be a waiting game....
the grand solution...monitor your additions of n closer, and base additions on conversion rates, wait it out, or do water changes. there will be no grand one size fits all follow this dosing yada yada yada...
if you want a process for from scratch fishless cycling you have to base everything off of process rates, not a time line...i would like to see all of this "daily dosing" stuff end...it seems that's one of the most common links in all "stalled" cycle problems...
Caliban07
Aquarium Advice Addict
in aquariums we keep a low overall nitrogen
this gives the appearance that with little test kits we can "watch" all of our n (this is no where close to showing what's going on).
when doing a fishless cycle you build up a large n [ ].
as with oxygen, carbon dioxide, exc...n is exchanged between water and the atmosphere. so even without us adding n, it will be brought in naturaly...just not enough and fast enough to cycle a tank.
water is a good place for our fixed n to be converted back into n2 and returned to the atmosphere due to dissolved oxygen [ ].
everything is in chaos all the time...and everything is trying to reach equilibrium all the time...so, everything is always changing and that goal of equilibrium is always adjusting based on what changes are happening in the system...
so when you throw a **** ton of n into a system, all kinds of **** happens while the systems tries to find equilibrium...
nothing i said was bold or new (very far from it)...just some things that weren't considered as factors.
without removing high [ ] n water and replacing it with low [ ] n water, it's going to be a waiting game....
the grand solution...monitor your additions of n closer, and base additions on conversion rates, wait it out, or do water changes. there will be no grand one size fits all follow this dosing yada yada yada...
if you want a process for from scratch fishless cycling you have to base everything off of process rates, not a time line...i would like to see all of this "daily dosing" stuff end...it seems that's one of the most common links in all "stalled" cycle problems...
How would you do a fishless cycle?
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