BGA Nightmare please help

[Caliban07]

Could off killing so much bacteria (good and bad) all at once present a water quality issue?


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[coralbandit]

Could off killing so much bacteria (good and bad) all at once present a water quality issue?


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I believe it can cause serious trouble as mentioned in SA link;


Be prepared for the massive cyanobacterial die-off. Dying cyanobacteria can release toxins that will stress your fish and all the other organisms in the tank and could be deadly. Cyanobacterial toxins affect the neural system and damage the liver. Liver damage will not be evident perhaps, until a victim suffers symptoms of "dropsy" long afterwards. Rinse out the remaining filter media each day. Manually collect as much of the cyanobacterial sheets as you can in a brine-shrimp net. After 48 hours, do a 40% water change and repeat the erythromycin dosage. On the fourth day, siphon again carefully and do another 40% water change.

Be prepared too for a possible ammonia spike that you might see after nuking cyanobacteria with erythromycin. The pulse of ammonia in your water might be a result of nitrifying bacteria getting knocked back. It might also be the result of ammonia released into the system as fragments of dead cyanobacterial sheets are decomposed by other aerobic bacteria. Any pulse of ammonia is liable to bring on a small pulse of nitrite in its wake. Life can be hell.

 

[Caliban07]

Be prepared too for a possible ammonia spike that you might see after nuking cyanobacteria with erythromycin. The pulse of ammonia in your water might be a result of nitrifying bacteria getting knocked back. It might also be the result of ammonia released into the system as fragments of dead cyanobacterial sheets are decomposed by other aerobic bacteria. Any pulse of ammonia is liable to bring on a small pulse of nitrite in its wake. Life can be hell.

Yes this was the one I was more concerned about.


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[Huro]

There is much to consider all around to be sure, what is everyone's thoughts on this part of the article?

"Fertilizers are not generally recommended in planted tanks because of the potential algae problems. Trace elements and iron are all that should be used, fish provide the rest of the fertilizer".

Is this accurate? I was under the impression that I should be using a fert system.


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[Huro]

Hello all,

Just doing an update here got home yesterday and was pleased to see that the new filtration unit I installed before I left definitely made a difference. There is green algae on tank walls and my rock but it is only a light coating, the plants look much better . I am planning to start the EM Erythromycin treatment tonight and I am thinking I will probably only go with half a dose to start out with but I am wondering if I should my weekly tank cleaning/WC before I start or if I should wait until the treatment is over, any thoughts?.

Here are some pics of tank when I got home

 

[fish wrangler]

I would do your normal tank maintenance and try to remove as much of the BGA as possible before the treatment

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[Huro]

OK thanks

 

[jarrod0987]

BGA Usually shows up when there are Phosphate and organics but little to no nitrates. Don't worry a lot about ratios, just see if you have any at all and maybe add some if you don't I have seen claims that When iron is dosed BGA goes down and Diatoms go up. There are lots of things that eat diatoms. Then there is always the less light more CO2 approach. You could also try Seachem Flourish Excel which is a biocide and might kill it for you as well as help your plants grow.

I hate to say it because I know it's going to cause more drama but I have had great luck fighting off BGA by keeping Phosphate down below 0.1 ppm. This will limit your plants though. That's not usually what people here want to do.

Lastly, Drug Store Hydrogen Peroxide has been shown to kill BGA very quickly, within hours. You need to be careful with this stuff. It can kill your bio filter. The dosage is 1ml of peroxide to 1 gal of actual aquarium water. Not the gal of the aquarium. I would start at 1/4 of that and squirt it right on the algae trouble spots. 1 time a day. Increase to 1/2 dosage if you feel safe etc. Peroxide can cause your API ammonia test to turn red/brown instead of green. If it does then I would not add any more until that stopped happening.

 

[Huro]

Hi everyone,
So just wanted to do an update and get your opinions/thoughts,As of this moment I am still fighting this stuff.

I have lost so many fish in this tank trying to battle what seems to be an endless string of problems that I decided to take a break from it and walk away for awhile. It probably wasn't the best coarse of action but I felt so frustrated and disheartened viewing so many beautiful tanks here and elsewhere, that in a fit of anger and tears I almost sold everything and walked from the hobby for good. I have since pulled myself up off the floor and I am ready to start this fight again at ground zero.

I have checked all my equipment for possible failures and/or inaccuracies and tested all my parameters and they are as follows.
KH,GH- 7 degrees
phosphate- 0.0
Ammonia,Nitrite,Nitrate- 0,0,10ppm
PH 7
Co2-21ppm according to my calculations
Temp is currently between 73 and 74.
This is a 16g bowfront with high lights which are on 9am to 5pm, with an off period between 12-1pm, there are 12 neon tetras and 1 Cory, I feed them premium food every two days. I am currently not doing any dosing of ferts, although I have the PPS pro system.
I would like to start from scratch and do a 4 day blackout but would like to get input from those experienced in high tech tanks, for example I am unclear if I should I run air stones with a fully automatic Co2 system that also controls my ph. As always any advice and/or criticism will be appreciated please don't hesitate to tell what you might do differently. Thanks!

 

[fish wrangler]

Glad to see you didn't walk away from the hobby. I don't think you should run the air stone if you are using a ph controller because they would work against eachother.

Edited the rest, thought you had BBA problems


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[PerfectDepth]

Hi everyone,
So just wanted to do an update and get your opinions/thoughts,As of this moment I am still fighting this stuff.

I have lost so many fish in this tank trying to battle what seems to be an endless string of problems that I decided to take a break from it and walk away for awhile. It probably wasn't the best coarse of action but I felt so frustrated and disheartened viewing so many beautiful tanks here and elsewhere, that in a fit of anger and tears I almost sold everything and walked from the hobby for good. I have since pulled myself up off the floor and I am ready to start this fight again at ground zero.

I have checked all my equipment for possible failures and/or inaccuracies and tested all my parameters and they are as follows.
KH,GH- 7 degrees
phosphate- 0.0
Ammonia,Nitrite,Nitrate- 0,0,10ppm
PH 7
Co2-21ppm according to my calculations
Temp is currently between 73 and 74.
This is a 16g bowfront with high lights which are on 9am to 5pm, with an off period between 12-1pm, there are 12 neon tetras and 1 Cory, I feed them premium food every two days. I am currently not doing any dosing of ferts, although I have the PPS pro system.
I would like to start from scratch and do a 4 day blackout but would like to get input from those experienced in high tech tanks, for example I am unclear if I should I run air stones with a fully automatic Co2 system that also controls my ph. As always any advice and/or criticism will be appreciated please don't hesitate to tell what you might do differently. Thanks!

Fortunately I've never dealt with BGA, so I'm not much help there. Once that's cleared up, I suggest dimming your BML fixture if you still have it at maximum, and setting your pH controller even lower. At a KH of 7, you can't use it to calculate co2 concentration since it's probably not entirely carbonate hardness, meaning you would actually have less than 21 ppm. I don't know what the PAR at the substrate is, so it's hard to say how much co2 would be sufficient. The nice thing about BML fixtures is that they are dimmable. If high light is your goal, I recommend setting your pH controller to 6.7 as a starting point, you might need to go even lower than that. Just adjust slowly and observe until you find what works.

Your tank seems lightly-stocked, so I doubt PPS Pro amounts will be sufficient if your tank is heavily planted. I would double it or just switch to EI. What is your water change schedule? If you are already changing 50% weekly, it just makes sense to use the EI method (adjusted to suit your tank).

EDIT: regarding the air stone, as long as your filtration creates some movement on the surface, you should have sufficient oxygen so an airstone isn't needed. Also, pointing your spraybar toward the surface would give the same result, so it's really just more equipment that is unnecessary. Another thing,, the more oxygen there is available, the more co2 fish can tolerate, up to a point of course. The more surface agitation there is, the faster co2 will off-gas, and the more co2 you will end up using. Since you have a pH controller, it really shouldn't be an issue, it just means you will use up your co2 tank sooner.

 

[Caliban07]

Hi everyone,
So just wanted to do an update and get your opinions/thoughts,As of this moment I am still fighting this stuff.

I have lost so many fish in this tank trying to battle what seems to be an endless string of problems that I decided to take a break from it and walk away for awhile. It probably wasn't the best coarse of action but I felt so frustrated and disheartened viewing so many beautiful tanks here and elsewhere, that in a fit of anger and tears I almost sold everything and walked from the hobby for good. I have since pulled myself up off the floor and I am ready to start this fight again at ground zero.

I have checked all my equipment for possible failures and/or inaccuracies and tested all my parameters and they are as follows.
KH,GH- 7 degrees
phosphate- 0.0
Ammonia,Nitrite,Nitrate- 0,0,10ppm
PH 7
Co2-21ppm according to my calculations
Temp is currently between 73 and 74.
This is a 16g bowfront with high lights which are on 9am to 5pm, with an off period between 12-1pm, there are 12 neon tetras and 1 Cory, I feed them premium food every two days. I am currently not doing any dosing of ferts, although I have the PPS pro system.
I would like to start from scratch and do a 4 day blackout but would like to get input from those experienced in high tech tanks, for example I am unclear if I should I run air stones with a fully automatic Co2 system that also controls my ph. As always any advice and/or criticism will be appreciated please don't hesitate to tell what you might do differently. Thanks!

I would say that you know that your current conditions are favouring BGA. Looking at your parameters and taking in to consideration that everything seems like normal high tech parameters I would loo in to dosing ferts as mentioned. I haven't done much research on blue green algae but from what I have read and have heard others say is that is it nutrient dependent I.e a deficiency in one area and an excess in another. The light may not be helping too?

Have you considered running a UV steriliser and/or using RODI water and supplementing from there. Could BGA be present in the source water? Even if not you will be able to control you nutrient levels. You would have to buffer the water too of course especially with running co2.


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[Huro]

Fortunately I've never dealt with BGA, so I'm not much help there. Once that's cleared up, I suggest dimming your BML fixture if you still have it at maximum, and setting your pH controller even lower. At a KH of 7, you can't use it to calculate co2 concentration since it's probably not entirely carbonate hardness, meaning you would actually have less than 21 ppm. I don't know what the PAR at the substrate is, so it's hard to say how much co2 would be sufficient. The nice thing about BML fixtures is that they are dimmable. If high light is your goal, I recommend setting your pH controller to 6.7 as a starting point, you might need to go even lower than that. Just adjust slowly and observe until you find what works.

Your tank seems lightly-stocked, so I doubt PPS Pro amounts will be sufficient if your tank is heavily planted. I would double it or just switch to EI. What is your water change schedule? If you are already changing 50% weekly, it just makes sense to use the EI method (adjusted to suit your tank).

EDIT: regarding the air stone, as long as your filtration creates some movement on the surface, you should have sufficient oxygen so an airstone isn't needed. Also, pointing your spraybar toward the surface would give the same result, so it's really just more equipment that is unnecessary. Another thing,, the more oxygen there is available, the more co2 fish can tolerate, up to a point of course. The more surface agitation there is, the faster co2 will off-gas, and the more co2 you will end up using. Since you have a pH controller, it really shouldn't be an issue, it just means you will use up your co2 tank sooner.

Firstly Thank you for the response,

I do have a controller for my light but I had it set to max for the HC which I understood requires it, would lowering the lights setting affect its growth?.

I am at a loss with the PH/Co2 ratio, the graph I have been using for KH/Ph shows me set in the right spot for Co2 levels, as I understand it you are saying this could be inaccurate? How should I be calculating it in the future, please help me understand this, because this in fact could be what has been going wrong from the start.

I will certainly look into switching to the EI method, but I won't lie about it I went with PPS pro system because it was suppose to be easier to use. As for as doubling the dose, what would you recommend as too the Flourish excel dose?.

Thank you again for your time and help

 

[Huro]

I would say that you know that your current conditions are favouring BGA. Looking at your parameters and taking in to consideration that everything seems like normal high tech parameters I would loo in to dosing ferts as mentioned. I haven't done much research on blue green algae but from what I have read and have heard others say is that is it nutrient dependent I.e a deficiency in one area and an excess in another. The light may not be helping too?

Have you considered running a UV steriliser and/or using RODI water and supplementing from there. Could BGA be present in the source water? Even if not you will be able to control you nutrient levels. You would have to buffer the water too of course especially with running co2.


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Thank you for your response.

Yes it appear my parameters are favoring this stuff indeed, my canister has a built in UV. I use well water and have never considered using RODI water, would recommend a switch?

Thanks agian

 

[PerfectDepth]

How should I be calculating it in the future, please help me understand this, because this in fact could be what has been going wrong from the start.

For HC it's probably best to be at least on the high side of medium light, also with good co2. With sufficient co2, you can get away with less light and not slow down growth by too much. Maybe someone with a similar fixture can help you find PAR estimates.

Aim for a co2 concentration of 30 to 45 ppm to start with. Since you have a digital pH meter, this is simple, just use pH as a relative measure. Take a cup of water from your tank and let it sit out overnight. Then give it a good stir and use your pH probe to test it. This will tell you the baseline pH, when co2 concentration is in equilibrium with the atmosphere, which is on average 3 ppm. (From this pH, you can also get a more accurate KH value by looking for the number closest to 3 ppm on the chart.) Set your controller for at least 1 full point lower than your baseline pH. For example, if your baseline pH was 7.7, set your controller for 6.7. This will be approx. 30 ppm of co2. If you set it for 6.6, it would be about 38 ppm, and 6.5 would be 47 ppm.

I will certainly look into switching to the EI method, but I won't lie about it I went with PPS pro system because it was suppose to be easier to use. As for as doubling the dose, what would you recommend as too the Flourish excel dose?.

Thank you again for your time and help

Somewhere from a single to a double dose should be more than sufficient, in my opinion. Others like to dose a lot more, even with injected co2. Anytime you start excel or increase the dosage, I recommend to do it slowly. I think it's best if the plants can adjust to it slowly, so increase the dose a little each day to avoid melting of certain plants due to sudden changes.

 

[Huro]

For HC it's probably best to be at least on the high side of medium light, also with good co2. With sufficient co2, you can get away with less light and not slow down growth by too much. Maybe someone with a similar fixture can help you find PAR estimates.

Aim for a co2 concentration of 30 to 45 ppm to start with. Since you have a digital pH meter, this is simple, just use pH as a relative measure. Take a cup of water from your tank and let it sit out overnight. Then give it a good stir and use your pH probe to test it. This will tell you the baseline pH, when co2 concentration is in equilibrium with the atmosphere, which is on average 3 ppm. (From this pH, you can also get a more accurate KH value by looking for the number closest to 3 ppm on the chart.) Set your controller for at least 1 full point lower than your baseline pH. For example, if your baseline pH was 7.7, set your controller for 6.7. This will be approx. 30 ppm of co2. If you set it for 6.6, it would be about 38 ppm, and 6.5 would be 47 ppm.


Somewhere from a single to a double dose should be more than sufficient, in my opinion. Others like to dose a lot more, even with injected co2. Anytime you start excel or increase the dosage, I recommend to do it slowly. I think it's best if the plants can adjust to it slowly, so increase the dose a little each day to avoid melting of certain plants due to sudden changes.

This is some great information but I had been led to believe those levels of Co2 would be toxic to my fish is that true?

 

[PerfectDepth]

This is some great information but I had been led to believe those levels of Co2 would be toxic to my fish is that true?

That could be outdated info. I think 30 ppm was once considered potentially deadly, but now it's thought of as more like the bare minimum for high light tanks. I've never seen any ill effects whatsoever at 30 ppm. The amount of co2 that fish can tolerate depends on a few things, like oxygen content/surface agitation (tolerance for co2 is higher in well-oxygenated water), stocking level and also size of fish (in other words the demand for oxygen). A point is reached where the fish cannot expel co2 from their gills. Most fish should be fine all the way up to 45-50 ppm. Beyond that is where you might start to see the effects, and also where a small change in pH equals a much more drastic increase in co2. Just don't change the setting and then leave the house for the day- go very slowly, and watch your fish very carefully for the signs: odd behavior, lethargic movement, gasping or labored breathing etc.

If you're worried about it, you could always just use less light, which allows for a lower co2 concentration.

 

[Huro]

That could be outdated info. I think 30 ppm was once considered potentially deadly, but now it's thought of as more like the bare minimum for high light tanks. I've never seen any ill effects whatsoever at 30 ppm. The amount of co2 that fish can tolerate depends on a few things, like oxygen content/surface agitation (tolerance for co2 is higher in well-oxygenated water), stocking level and also size of fish (in other words the demand for oxygen). A point is reached where the fish cannot expel co2 from their gills. Most fish should be fine all the way up to 45-50 ppm. Beyond that is where you might start to see the effects, and also where a small change in pH equals a much more drastic increase in co2. Just don't change the setting and then leave the house for the day- go very slowly, and watch your fish very carefully for the signs: odd behavior, lethargic movement, gasping or labored breathing etc.

If you're worried about it, you could always just use less light, which allows for a lower co2 concentration.

I had no idea, Thank you for all the great information I will start putting all to use. I believe that with all this new guidance my luck will finally change

 

[Huro]

Hello everyone,

So I have been busy following all the great advice I have recieved thus far and now I plan on switching to the EI dosing method as was suggested to me but would like to make sure I will be doing this right, so could you please let me know if I have this setup right.

Monday- K2S04, KH2P04, KN03
Tuesday- MGS04, Plantex CSM+B, Flourish excel
Monday thru Saturday offset
Sunday 50% WC no dosing

Thank you

 

[pittbully13]

I've followed the link below and it works great so far. I used my PPS pro ferts that I already had. If you're like me substitute TNC for plantex if using Gla ferts. And on the micro days I also add the same amount of iron.

https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/aquarium/calculators/ei_calculator/


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