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Old 03-17-2007, 05:52 PM   #21
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Unfortunately, folks have decided to ignore the advice to keep this thread on topic and leave the personal attacks. The member who edited their original post will no longer have the privilege of posting here.

The purpose of this forum is for folks to learn, let's keep it that way. If we cannot do so, the thread will be locked.
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Old 03-17-2007, 08:21 PM   #22
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Sorry everyone, I didn't mean to stir up such a fuss with what I thought was a simple question.

Thanks for the great information Tom. I could see from all of the beautiful tanks on here that the pH swings obviously didn't bother the fish, I was hoping to understand the workings behind that - since many many places stress to newbies about the importance of a stable pH when keeping fish. I think I see where it all plays in now.

Thanks!
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Old 03-17-2007, 11:03 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilanh
Sorry everyone, I didn't mean to stir up such a fuss with what I thought was a simple question.

Thanks for the great information Tom. I could see from all of the beautiful tanks on here that the pH swings obviously didn't bother the fish, I was hoping to understand the workings behind that - since many many places stress to newbies about the importance of a stable pH when keeping fish. I think I see where it all plays in now.

Thanks!

Good,

KH swings on fish health(osmoregulation)= bad.
CO2 swings(no osmoregulation)= not bad

No need to apologize, no one did anything wrong here.
Some took things a bit personal. They will get over it.
Simple questions are the best type actually, when the assumptions are challenged and considered well, then they can become pretty interesting.

pH/KH/CO2 is a deep well of assumptions and the impacts are not nearly as simplistic as I thought say 10 years ago.

Today I see that we know much less than we thought, and are just really seeing how our assumptions got us into trouble in the past.

I'm not interested in grilling anyone, I think many assume that about me.
I am interested in trying to learn more and help hobbyists learn more, how to set a test up, what observations look reasonable, which do and which do not match with our question, how we might rule one thing out as factor etc.

If some suggests an idea that has a bad assumption, "like all my test kits must be accurate", I'm going to get out the BBQ tongs and grill, but the goal is not to discredit anyone, never was. The idea and how it is applied are the issues.

It's to attack that issue, that idea, that suggest our test kits are great and accurate. We do not know unless we do something to make sure the test kit is accurately measuring a NO3 reading etc.

You need a reference and a control to compare something against.
If an expert suggests that we just brush it off, claims it;s no big deal etc I think calling them on it is very appropriate.

It's a bad method and they made an assumption, one that can and should be addressed.

A lot of advice is very general on the web, as such, it is not as precise for situations such as CO2 gas enrichment.

Galen just went with the best that Galen knew was all.
Galen offered help and cared enough to do so.

Galen got irritated with my response, took it personal, no big deal.
Galen will get over it and hopefully see it is not a personal attack. Main issue is to think about how the pH affects our tanks in the context of CO2 enrichment and why it would/would not impact fish health.

Generally, in aquatic toxicity test, we use some biomarkers (stress proteins HSP 70's, mRNA, gonads etc) and some organisms: a plant, an invert critter and a fish. Then we do acute testing for a LD 50 dose response curve in the lab, then see how well this can be mimic in the field etc.

Long term or genetic issues can be addressed by looking at the F1, F2 populations, or measuring reproduction generally.

It's a very interesting field and you can help the environment and answer some cool questions. They also pay you

8)

Regards,
Tom Barr
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Old 03-18-2007, 08:28 AM   #24
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Tom thanks for taking some time to share your ideas with us here.
Rkilling1, where did you get your lab certified KH solution? I have read about how to make your own,
but that seems to be awful complicated.
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Old 03-18-2007, 09:52 AM   #25
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This person is selling KH Standards over at APC and has gotten some good feedback.
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Old 03-18-2007, 10:05 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaaikop
Tom thanks for taking some time to share your ideas with us here.
Rkilling1, where did you get your lab certified KH solution? I have read about how to make your own,
but that seems to be awful complicated.
I posted this in the sticky (How to make a reference KH solution for CO2 measurement):

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkilling1
I just have to let you guys know that I just received a lab certified analytical standard of 4 dKH from billionzz. It cost a little more then 10 bucks shipped and I am very happy with the product. He has baking soda standards of 4 and 5 dKH along with the lab certified ones diluted using class A glassware and Demin water.

Very professional transaction. I am adding this here so others who are looking for this will be able to find it. Just Google "billionzz" and you will find him.

EDIT: He now has a site setup for the KH standards:

http://liquidarthome.net/khstandard
EDIT: I see Joy already posted this.
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Old 03-18-2007, 11:51 AM   #27
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Wow, thanks!
Just for the heck of it, I just tested my tank's KH with two testkits of the same brand (in this case Hagen), one gives me 50ppm the other 70ppm, which goes to say, these test kits are really not serious at all. That's why I dont want to mess around with this anymore...
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