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Old 02-17-2007, 04:37 PM   #1
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EI Dosing Help - 12 Gal - Now with Dry Ferts!

Ok, I'm trying to figure out this whole "EI" Dosing system. I've been using this page for reference:
http://www.barrreport.com/articles/1...ive-index.html

For Flourish Excel, I'm just following the dose on the bottle (1mL/day).

That website lists this:
10- 20 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/8 tsp KNO3 (N) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp KH2PO4 (P) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp K2SO4 (K) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change

So, do I just go by this and dose .625mL and .156mL Respectively for the Flourish Nitrogen, and the Phosphate, Potassium, and Flourish?

I guess this seems pretty straight forward. Am I correct?

Also, '1 drop' is = mL?

Thanks!
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Old 02-17-2007, 05:48 PM   #2
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Somebody correct me here if I'm wrong.

I do not like the idea of measuring such small amounts. I think an alternative might to use some thing like Chuck calculator and mix up a diluted solution that could be stored in a bottle. Then you could measure actual ml and dose that way instead of trying to get 1/32 tsp just right.

This is how I deal with the dry ferts, I assume it will work with the liquid as well.
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Old 02-17-2007, 06:11 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SparKy697
I do not like the idea of measuring such small amounts.
I'm not too worried about the measuring, I found a dropper from Walgreens that measures in .1 mL increments.
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My Tank: 20 Gallon Freshwater High Tech Planted
My Plants: Dwarf Sagittaria, Riccia, Crypt Lutea, Rotala Macandra, Corkscrew Val, Blyxa Japonica, Ambulia, Anubias Nana, Flame Moss, Christmas Moss, Echinodorus Parviflorus.
My Fish: 1 German Gold Ram, 3 Praecox Rainbows, 1 Otocinclus Catfish, 1 Siamese Algae Eater, 1 Rummynose Tetra, 4 Cherry Barbs
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Old 02-17-2007, 06:15 PM   #4
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This site: http://www.leon-huang.com/doser/ will give you the amounts to dose to get different ppm for the Seachem products. I used it to figure out the dosing for my little tank. Just get a syringe to measure the amounts. Hope this helps!
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Old 02-17-2007, 06:22 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish 'n' fries
This site: http://www.leon-huang.com/doser/ will give you the amounts to dose to get different ppm for the Seachem products. I used it to figure out the dosing for my little tank. Just get a syringe to measure the amounts. Hope this helps!
I was looking at this calculator before. But, using this, I don't know how much of the various chemicals are still in the tank, or have been used up. So, while it tells me how many ppm I'm adding with each dose, I don't know what the total levels in the tank are.

As I understand it, with the 'EI' system, I dose extra, then do a large water change at the end of the 7 day schedule to avoid the problems of having to measure levels in the tank.
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My Tank: 20 Gallon Freshwater High Tech Planted
My Plants: Dwarf Sagittaria, Riccia, Crypt Lutea, Rotala Macandra, Corkscrew Val, Blyxa Japonica, Ambulia, Anubias Nana, Flame Moss, Christmas Moss, Echinodorus Parviflorus.
My Fish: 1 German Gold Ram, 3 Praecox Rainbows, 1 Otocinclus Catfish, 1 Siamese Algae Eater, 1 Rummynose Tetra, 4 Cherry Barbs
My Inverts: Ramshorn Snails, Apple Snails.
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Old 02-17-2007, 07:39 PM   #6
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The volumes for the dry ferts are based on the amount of ppm they'll add to the tank. Adding the same volume of a dry fert and a flourish fert will not get you the same results.

What you need to do is determine how much each of those dosages is going to add using chuck's calculator, and then use the other calculator that fish 'n' fries suggested to determine how much you'd need to get the same ppms of the Flourish products.

For example 1/8tsp of KNO3 in a 10 gallon tank, would be adding 10.5ppm NO3. To get the same ppm in a 10 gallon using Flourish Nitrogen you would need to dose 5.25ml.

With the dropper that I use, 1 drop is closer to 1/15 of a ml. It will vary based on the size of the hole in the dropper you're using.
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Old 02-17-2007, 08:58 PM   #7
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Ok guys, we're getting a bit off track here I think. I have the Liquid Flourish chemicals. I'm happy with these, I'm happy measuring small amounts. I don't need to mix them into more dilute solutions.

I can figure out using the Calculator how many PPM I add with X amount of each Flourish product.

My Question is this: Do I dose the amounts stated in my original post? If not, where are the guidelines on how much I dose? Not just telling me how much X amount of Flourish adds to my tank. I need to know how many PPM or mL or tsp or whatever of each I should dose daily.
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My Tank: 20 Gallon Freshwater High Tech Planted
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My Fish: 1 German Gold Ram, 3 Praecox Rainbows, 1 Otocinclus Catfish, 1 Siamese Algae Eater, 1 Rummynose Tetra, 4 Cherry Barbs
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Old 02-17-2007, 09:13 PM   #8
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You need to know how much X amount adds to your tank. Dosing varies. My tank has a lower bio-load so I dose a higher Nitrate. My phosphates tend to be high so I dose the phosphates at a lower level.
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Old 02-17-2007, 09:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishyfanatic
You need to know how much X amount adds to your tank. Dosing varies. My tank has a lower bio-load so I dose a higher Nitrate. My phosphates tend to be high so I dose the phosphates at a lower level.
Maybe I'm not understanding or something, but I thought one of the main points of the EI method was it didn't matter how much each adds. I chose the EI method so I wouldn't have to test any levels in my tank. You add an excess of nutrients and then do a large PWC at the end of the cycle to prevent any major build ups. Therefore, I won't know how much X amount adds to my tank.

If someone wanted to just tell me how much of each to dose for a 12 Gallon tank, that might be easiest.
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My Tank: 20 Gallon Freshwater High Tech Planted
My Plants: Dwarf Sagittaria, Riccia, Crypt Lutea, Rotala Macandra, Corkscrew Val, Blyxa Japonica, Ambulia, Anubias Nana, Flame Moss, Christmas Moss, Echinodorus Parviflorus.
My Fish: 1 German Gold Ram, 3 Praecox Rainbows, 1 Otocinclus Catfish, 1 Siamese Algae Eater, 1 Rummynose Tetra, 4 Cherry Barbs
My Inverts: Ramshorn Snails, Apple Snails.
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Old 02-17-2007, 09:27 PM   #10
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Hi David.

What purrbox is saying is to calculate the table you posted into the PPM you will add to the tank.. That table then becomes.

+/- 9ppm (N) 3x a week
+/- 2.5ppm PO4 (P) 3x a week
+/- 7ppm K (K) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week

Now using that, you need to follow the instructions on the bottle to calculate the Seachem equivalent for each.

N = 12*.25*9 = 27ml (formula is on the label, ml = .25vn where v is the tank volume and n is the desired N in ppm)
K = (5/30*12) * (k/2) = 2 * (7/2) = 7ml (I made that formula up using the information on the label)
P = .8*12*2.5 = 19.2ml (.8vp on the label)

So for Seachem products.

+/- 27ml (N) 3x a week
+/-19.2ml PO4 (P) 3x a week
+/- 7ml K (K) 3x a week
+/- 2ml Trace Elements(Flourish Comprehensive) 3x a week

Can someone quickly double check if I messed something up.. pretty sure my math is right on this one (tho K looks low to me)
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Old 02-17-2007, 09:33 PM   #11
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Wow! Wizard of Ozz. You're awesome.

(BTW, my bottles don't have equations on them.)

So, to recap, I dose:

27ml Flourish Nitrogen 3X/Week
19ml Flourish Phosphorous 3X/Week
7ml Flourish Potassium 3X/Week
2ml Flourish 3X/Week

Can anyone verify that this looks ok?

Thanks!!!
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My Tank: 20 Gallon Freshwater High Tech Planted
My Plants: Dwarf Sagittaria, Riccia, Crypt Lutea, Rotala Macandra, Corkscrew Val, Blyxa Japonica, Ambulia, Anubias Nana, Flame Moss, Christmas Moss, Echinodorus Parviflorus.
My Fish: 1 German Gold Ram, 3 Praecox Rainbows, 1 Otocinclus Catfish, 1 Siamese Algae Eater, 1 Rummynose Tetra, 4 Cherry Barbs
My Inverts: Ramshorn Snails, Apple Snails.
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Old 02-17-2007, 10:19 PM   #12
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I just used the chucks calculator, czcz's calculator for CSM+B, and the calculator on the linked site instead of trying to do the math.

I'm coming up with:
Flourish Nitrogen = 5.3ml
Flourish Phosphorus = 25ml
Flourish Potassium = 1.7ml
Flourish Comprehensive = 2.8ml

All of the intermediary numbers were the same except the Potassium (and Traces which I didn't see a ppm for), which came out as 1.7ppm. I believe this is a bit lower since you're getting another 7.5ppm from the KNO3.
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Old 02-17-2007, 10:39 PM   #13
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I'm quite leary about the accuracy of that calculator linked to..

According to it, the dosage I had said would put in 42ppm Nitrate.. however.

Quote:
The beginner dose raises nitrogen by the same degree that 1 mg/L nitrate would. This dose is sufficient to provide approximately 4 g of growth (dry) or about 20 g (hydrated) over a 1 month period (assuming all other necessary nutrients are provided). For increased growth use proportionately more. To target a specific nitrogen increase, dose according to the following formula: 0.25vn=m, where v= volume of tank in gallons*, n=desired nitrogen increase (if using a ďnitrate equivalentĒ value for ďnĒ then use a factor of 0.05 instead of 0.25 in the formula) and m=volume of product to use in mL. For example to raise 20 gallons* by 0.20 mg/L nitrogen you would use: 0.25*20*0.20=1 mL.
Ok, I get it, we are using nitrate equiv. so .05 is used. .05*12*9=5.4

Quote:
The beginner dose raises phosphorus by 0.05 mg/L (0.15 mg/L phosphate). The ideal phosphate level will vary, but generally ranges from 0.15Ė1.0 mg/L. Use MultiTest: Phosphateô to monitor phosphate levels. To target a specific phosphate increase, dose according to the following formula: 0.8vp=m, where v= volume of tank in gallons*, p=desired phosphate increase and m=volume of product to use in mL. For example to raise 20 gallons* to 0.1 mg/L phosphate you would use: 0.8*20*0.1=1.6 mL.
Symantics on the difference of .1ppm here

Quote:
DIRECTIONS: Use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 125 L (30 gallons*). This dose raises potassium by 2 mg/L.
5ml in 30Gal = 2ppm, how can 1.7ml in 12Gal = 7ppm? 1.7ml = 4.25ml in a 30gal, or less then 2ppm..

I think there is an error in the Potassium calc. on that site.
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Old 02-17-2007, 11:05 PM   #14
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Well that was enough for me to break down and break out Excel to do some number crunching.

Nitrate = 0.25 * 12 * 9 = 27ml (verified)
However using Seachems alternate calculation = .05 * 12 * 9 = 5.4ml (online calc verified)
Phosphate = 0.8 * 12 * 2.5 = 24ml (closer to online than yours)
Using the givens on the label for Potassium, multiplier * 30 (gallons) * 2 (ppm) = 5ml.
multiplier = 5 / (30 * 2)
multiplier = 0.08
Using the 1.7ppm Potassium I got from Chuck's Calculator
Potassium = 0.08 * 12 * 1.7 = 1.6ml (close to the online)
Using the 7ppm Potassium you calculated
Potassium = 0.08 * 12 * 7 = 6.7ml (close to what you calculated)
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Old 02-17-2007, 11:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzard~Of~Ozz
5ml in 30Gal = 2ppm, how can 1.7ml in 12Gal = 7ppm? 1.7ml = 4.25ml in a 30gal, or less then 2ppm.

I think there is an error in the Potassium calc. on that site.
I think that you missed that I had gotten a different intermediary value from Chuck's Calculator for the Potassium levels. I was plugging 1.7ppm as the target not 7ppm.
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Old 02-17-2007, 11:11 PM   #16
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Ok, I think I see the difference. (btw, I included the formula for Phosphorus, but I must have hit a wrong key, 19.2 does not equal the formula I had right next to it... (check your answers comes to mind )

For Potassium, did you add the potassium in the KNO3 and the K2SO4? I did, and got 7ppm. (well, I rounded up since the K amount seemed low to me) and the online calc did calc this right, I had assumed you were using 7ppm as well.
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Old 02-17-2007, 11:15 PM   #17
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I was doing a direct conversion of just the K2SO4 instead of adding in the Potassium from the KNO3. I remember reading somewhere that the Flourish Nitrogen actually does supply the Potassium as well. You could really do it either way, as the extra Potassium certainly wouldn't hurt anything other than the pocket book.

Edit - Found it. Seachem Nitrogen does contain Potassium, it's listed in the guarenteed analysis. It even states that the product is made at least partially from Potassium Nitrate.
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:02 AM   #18
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Seachem liquid ferts, while good, are surprisingly dilute. Typical EI instructions are based on dry ferts.

I made an EI spreadsheet that includes the Seachem ferts in it.
http://webpages.charter.net/zezmo/EI..._v4_public.xls

You said a 12 gallon tank right? Typical target ppms are - Weekly; 30 ppm Nitrate, 3 ppm Phosphate, 30 ppm Potassium. Plus micros.

In Seachem liquid ferts, that equates to these weekly doses:
3.5 tsp Seachem Nitrogen (29 ppm)(17.5 ml)
6.0 tsp Seachem Phosphorus (3 ppm)(30 ml)
5.5 tsp Seachem Potassium (30 ppm)(27.5 ml)
1.5 tsp Seachem Flourish (.5 ppm Iron)(7.5 ml)

A dosage routing based on this might look like this:
Sunday: 50% water change, 1.5 tsp Nitrogen, 2 tsp Phosphorus, 2 tsp Potassium
Monday: .5 tsp Flourish
Tuesday: 1 tsp Nitrogen, 2 tsp Phosphorus, 1.5 tsp Potassium
Wednesday: .5 tsp Flourish
Thursday: 1 tsp Nitrogen, 2 tsp Phosphorus, 1.5 tsp Potassium
Friday: .5 tsp Flourish
Saturday: rest

Hope this helps
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:23 AM   #19
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According to Seachem, it doesn't have the same level of potassium It's 50% nitrogen (not nitrate) so it must have a difference source. (That's where the .05/.25 comes in)..

Ok, so we've ironed out the differences.

5.5ml Nitrogen
7 ml Potassium
24ml Phosphorus
2-3ml comprehensive

Thanks for the help purrbox.. been a while since I dealt with seachem stuff.. I got used to dry ferts.

I've included most of the formulas and their corrections if you need to re calculate them. (and Zezmo has adjusted a couple of the numbers.. not sure where his are from tho.), His seems to address my concern for the potassium level. The Nitrogen is the one I find stands out.. perhaps nitrogen<>Nitrate??
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Old 02-18-2007, 01:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzard~Of~Ozz
Ok, so we've ironed out the differences.

5.5ml Nitrogen
7 ml Potassium
24ml Phosphorus
2-3ml comprehensive
Wow, well I'm totally lost, but that is ok. Thank you everyone who helped here. We're all happy with these numbers? Everything looks fine to me, but what do I know!

Thank you all again.
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My Tank: 20 Gallon Freshwater High Tech Planted
My Plants: Dwarf Sagittaria, Riccia, Crypt Lutea, Rotala Macandra, Corkscrew Val, Blyxa Japonica, Ambulia, Anubias Nana, Flame Moss, Christmas Moss, Echinodorus Parviflorus.
My Fish: 1 German Gold Ram, 3 Praecox Rainbows, 1 Otocinclus Catfish, 1 Siamese Algae Eater, 1 Rummynose Tetra, 4 Cherry Barbs
My Inverts: Ramshorn Snails, Apple Snails.
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