Goldfish in the planted aquarium..

[greenmaji]

To try to keep from killing the best thread in the planted section that Ive seen so far I will try to get this out of the 29 gal. ODNO thread..

Mojo Troll said...

"Can you point out one single tank here on Aquatic Gardeners Association that has goldfish in thier tanks? Heres a link....

http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/

Goldfish are cold blooded. Planted aquariums like tropical water temps. Do the research. Your in over your head."

to me...

And my responce is.. who cares what everyone else is doing.. mumba's in a planted tank "You cant do that!" but some of the members here have not to mention names.. BS in my oppion.. If you dont try it then of course it cant be done..
Goldfish can be kept in tropical temperatures.. and if you look at the times I have advised people to not do this Id say.. this is somthing only for the experienced hobbiest.. I really think its a matter of experiance and if you have it and can do it then go ahead and do what you want..

 

[Toirtis]

Goldfish can be kept in tropical temperatures.. and if you look at the times I have advised people to not do this Id say.. this is somthing only for the experienced hobbiest..

More the uneducated/apathetic one....just because you can pull something off does not mean that it is a good idea ( i.e.: many 10-12 girls can get pregnant and eventually give birth, but it is extremely hard on them and fairly risky). Goldfish (carps) are coolwater fishes...keeping them at tropical temperatures increases their metabolism exponentially and shortens their lifespan significantly (as well as making them much more susceptable to a myriad of health issues). Why not instead just keep them at proper temps and plant their tank with any of numerous cool/cold water aquatic plants?

 

[greenmaji]

The temperature is actually 78 degrees up from 72.. before cooling fans are going in... this guy is just trying to start an argument.. the temperature will end up in the mid 70's.. My bad saying tropical.. I should have said mid 70's... I was told to keep normal tropicals in the high mid 70's a long time ago to slow down there metabolism and extend there lives.. thats were that mix up came from.. again my bad..

 

[greenmaji]

The temperature is actually 78 degrees up from 72.. before cooling fans are going in... this guy is just trying to start an argument.. the temperature will end up in the mid 70's.. My bad saying tropical.. I should have said mid 70's... I was told to keep normal tropicals in the high mid 70's a long time ago to slow down there metabolism and extend there lives.. thats were that mix up came from.. again my bad..

I realise that lowering the temp with tropicals is a bad idea as well.. Just old advise given to me.. kinda stuck in my head..

 

[Guest]

Hummm this is interesting.

Before anyone replys to this thread. Please read the 8+ page long thread "ODNO lighting" thread thats a hot topic at the top of the list here on the planted section of AA.

Goldfish do not belong in high light planted tanks. They are cold water fish. Planted tanks for the most part are warmer tropical fish habitats. If one looks, you'll see where I say.....(albiet an edit before I seen this post) "if you want to keep goldfish or koi in a planted environment. Build a pond in your back yard and plant some lillies"

As I stated in the "ODNO lighting" thread. Can anyone point out one single tank here on Aquatic Gardener Associacition that keeps goldfish in thier PLANTED TANKS??????

Greenmagi, you should really know and present all the facts, before starting a new post or quoting people.

Again, can any here point out one single planted tanks from Aquarium Gardners Association that use goldfish, koi, carb in thier freshwater AQUARIUMs??? Heres a link.....

http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/

As I originally stated on the "ODNO lighting thread". If you want a planted goldfish, Koi invironment. Build a pond in your backyard and plant some lillies.

Do the homework, its that simple.

 

[Toirtis]

Goldfish do not belong in high light planted tanks. They are cold water fish. Planted tanks for the most part are warmer tropical fish habitats. If one looks, you'll see where I say.....(albiet an edit before I seen this post) "if you want to keep goldfish or koi in a planted environment. Build a pond in your back yard and plant some lillies"

Well, you can have a reasonable amount of light and still have a coldwater environment....

But, the pond suggestion is correct (especially since not a lot of people, especially in the US, can keep an indoor tank as cool as is ideal), and you can grow all sorts of amusing plants in coldwater...like hornwort (which is a coolwater, not tropical plant), milfoils, etc.....and the goldies will love them all.

 

[FMJnaX]

Grrrrrrr..... too much going on about this. I'm going to keep this short (or try to).

If ANYBODY knows my background (JChillin can back me up), the whole reason I have goldies inside now is because I had to save one from a screw up in my "pond". It wasn't by choice, believe me. I wanted a cichlid tank. As a result of the disease, the goldie had to stay inside. Since I had a 29 gal and only one fish, I decided on an all out goldie tank (only two, but that's enough for 29 gallons). To reitterate, I DO have a pond, and it's doing well.

As for the water temp, I really can't help it. It used to be in the high 70's, even with 0 light 24/7. I've finally managed to get it stable at 75F. This is only a few degrees above the recommended goldie temp so all is well. I keep the O2 levels up and they're "happy as a clam". Essentially I'm not keeping a cold water environment, but I'm not keeping a tropical one either. I'd say it's just moderate.

I'm sorry that another thread had to be created due to my actions, but you know what, I'm happy, my fish are happy, my tank is thriving, and my plants are growing. I'll add plants as I can get them. If you've researched any of my posts, I've been looking for plant clippings to plant in. Locally, we have a crap selection in our fish shops; or lack of them that is. Most everything available is pond plants or floating plants. I've seen a few Java ferns and swords, but nothing healthy enough to put $10 on.

So the thread topic is "Goldfish in the planted aquarium..". Well, the answer would be:
Not recommended in an aquarium, but ok in a pond.
Why? I have the exact same plant (anacharis) in my pond. The goldies don't eat it out there.
The stereotype is that goldies eat plants.
Yeah, and what? I've trained them not to eat plants and it works very well. As greenmagi referenced, how about that planted cichlid tank?
Plants need warm water.
Partially true. There are a lot of plants that don't require it.
Never seen an AGA goldie tank
Aside from beginners and little kids, I've found that goldfish keeping isn't too large in the U.S. (Huge in Asia). Coupled with the goldfish natural tendencies (stereotypes in aquaria), AGA peeps are probably not brave enough to try it. How do you sign up? I'll be the first to prove everybody wrong. I'm very experienced in goldfish keeping. I know what they can handle and what they can't. I know how to care for them and I do a great job at it.

Well, I guess this didn't end up too short. I'm sorry. You can all have your opinions, that's fine. I guess my biggest fight is that not all goldies will eat plants. We all know fish are smart; some smarter than others. Goldies are no expection. They know their owner, their environment, their tank mates, etc. My goldies will eat from my hand as well as allow me to readily cup them in my hand for examination or whatever. I really believe that I have also trained them NOT to pick at the plants.

What more can I say....

 

[rubysoho]

I don't have anything to ad to the discussion on wether or not goldies should be in a planted tank, but just out of curiosity, how did you train your goldfish to not pick at the plants? Maybe they same can be done for oscars. I just find that really neat.

 

[czcz]

fwiw, we keep a Ryukin with anubias nana and afzelli, marimo balls, and floating anacharis at ~72-74F. It nibbles on some anacharis but not all - it seems selective of certain stems but I've not figured out why. The Anubias is tied to objects with fishing line. In the past there was hornwort in the tank, too. Lighting is 1.5wpg, regular pwc, no ferts, no co2.

 

[malkore]

...
As I originally stated on the "ODNO lighting thread". If you want a planted goldfish, Koi invironment. Build a pond in your backyard and plant some lillies.

Do the homework, its that simple.

People also say that African cichlids, mbuna in particular, have no business in a planted tank because they'll dig/destroy the plants. Travis Simonson, and several others, have proved this to be false. Travis, in fact, has one of the best looking planted aquariums I've seen, ranking right below Mr. Amano himself.

If you can keep the tank cool enough with high light and CO2 injection, there's no reason you can't plant a goldfish tank, as long as you can accept that the goldies may nibble at or uproot plants.

Also, please express your opinions in a polite and respectful manner. You've already edited your original post to be less antagonistic...but maybe next time read it before posting, and ask "would my grandmother be tick'd if I spoke to her like this?" if the answer is 'yes'...edit before you submit the post.

 

[FMJnaX]

I don't have anything to ad to the discussion on wether or not goldies should be in a planted tank, but just out of curiosity, how did you train your goldfish to not pick at the plants? Maybe they same can be done for oscars. I just find that really neat.

Ya know, I stumbled upon it a few years back (2001) and it's worked fairly well. Some older, more stubborn goldies seem to not understand, but youngsters do well. I've only had a few not take heed.

Anyway, my approach is, well, not really recommended in the experienced aquariast world; especially due to the messy nature of the fish to begin with. What I do is I devote A LOT of time to the fish. My wife hates it, but it's gets the job done. The younger the fish, the better. I usually spend a full weekend on the task. The first step is to get the fish to eat from your hand. It's not required, but makes it easier. Once the fish eats from your hand, you simply just watch it. When it starts to nibble at your plants, give it a piece of food. I'm not sure how this works since all experiences from land pets was that this was rewarding him. It appears, however, that when the fish starts to nibble on the plant, it's because he's hungry and the piece of food is by far tastier than the plant.

To make a long story short, it seems to me that eventually the fish learns that when he's hungry, he'll be fed the good stuff. Every fish is different. Some take more than a couple days while others learn in as little as a day. In my pond, I often have to retrain the fish because one reverts back and takes the others down with him. In my aquarium, however, it seems to have been working well.

Again, I'm not sure how this works. I'm not a fish psychologist or anything. I just got a thought in my head one day that if the fish was eating my plants, it was because he was hungry... so I started to feed. I then just started to put together more of a set method. I soon realized that with a strict feeding schedule, the fish KNEW when it was time to eat and, instead of eating the plants, they started to frenzy at the top as if trying to get my attention. I could go on for days about my findings, but that's basically all I did.

 

[FMJnaX]

...
As I originally stated on the "ODNO lighting thread". If you want a planted goldfish, Koi invironment. Build a pond in your backyard and plant some lillies.

Do the homework, its that simple.

People also say that African cichlids, mbuna in particular, have no business in a planted tank because they'll dig/destroy the plants. Travis Simonson, and several others, have proved this to be false. Travis, in fact, has one of the best looking planted aquariums I've seen, ranking right below Mr. Amano himself.

If you can keep the tank cool enough with high light and CO2 injection, there's no reason you can't plant a goldfish tank, as long as you can accept that the goldies may nibble at or uproot plants.

Also, please express your opinions in a polite and respectful manner. You've already edited your original post to be less antagonistic...but maybe next time read it before posting, and ask "would my grandmother be tick'd if I spoke to her like this?" if the answer is 'yes'...edit before you submit the post.

Thanks malkore!

Temps are stable and just out of the normal range so it should be alright. I whole-heartedly accept the facts that my fish may nibble or uproot. Even with my "training", I can't guarantee that it will never happen. I never had an uprooting problem until I got the newest goldfish. Since then, I've bundled plants together with fishing line and planted in deeper substrate. I believe that a rooted plant or a thicker based plant is going to be key in my tank. I'm also figuring that the goldies will have to go to a larger, unplanted tank when they get to be more than 6-8".

Thanks!

 

[Steve Hampton]

Again, can any here point out one single planted tanks from Aquarium Gardners Association that use goldfish, koi, carb in thier freshwater AQUARIUMs??? Heres a link.....

http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/

What on earth does the tanks being submitted to an Aquascaping Contest have to do with whether someone can have a successful planted tank with goldfish? The two are completely unrelated. While the majority of the photos submitted are beautiful aquascapes that doesn't equate to a summary on the ONLY way to have success is to copy others success. As Malkore pointed out, until recently the common advice given about a planted tank home to African Rift Lake Cichlids was not possible. Thankfully not everyone accepts being told something can't be done. There are no obstacles about keeping Goldfish and plants together that can't be overcome. Meaning it is totally possible to have a successful planted tank with goldies. Regarding the AGA, I'm a long time member and supporter. I enjoy TAG every quarter and look forward to the annual convention...(none for 2005 though ). But, I've also seen equal if not better aquascapes of tanks that were never submitted to the contest. The only point to this is that one shouldn't based the "state of planted tanks" solely on those few tanks pictures submitted each year to the AGA. It represents only about 60-80 tanks out of the thousands of beautiful tanks that aren't being submitted for a variety of reasons.

Frankly I think the attitude of many folks regarding what constitutes a planted tank is way off the mark. A successful planted tank is simply a tank that has healthy live plants and healthy fish that all thrive and grow together. It shouldn't be based on how many plants or how talented the skills of the aquascaper are...certainly we should recognize those with advanced artistic skills, such as Travis, but these tanks, while more aesthetically pleasing to the eye, don't always mean they are any better of a home for the fish...ultimately it is the fish and their health that really matters.

I almost feel compelled to start a planted tank with goldies now.

 

[Jchillin]

If ANYBODY knows my background (JChillin can back me up), the whole reason I have goldies inside now is because I had to save one from a screw up in my "pond". It wasn't by choice, believe me. I wanted a cichlid tank. As a result of the disease, the goldie had to stay inside. Since I had a 29 gal and only one fish, I decided on an all out goldie tank (only two, but that's enough for 29 gallons). To reitterate, I DO have a pond, and it's doing well.

Since I've been called upon as a reference, I will add my two cents. When this member first came to AA, he was experiencing a world of problems with his Barrel Pond. He came here, asked what would be the right thing to do to save his golds and, the 29 gal tank was born.

Fast forward a little and his precious gold then contracted HITH. It was either prior to or after treatment that the tank temp was discussed and we all hoped that the fish would recover. I even made the suggestion that it may not happen.

It was after the recovery that the question was then posed: "Can I plant this tank?" or something along those lines. This member was given all the prescribed thoughts on plants with goldfish.

Plants were then introduced and it was then that it was mentioned that a large number of plants would be needed in order to balance the nutrients in the tank. This is when the DIY CO2 and ODNO started.

I've added this information for the sole purpose of keeping everything mentioned in perpective. This was a step by step endeavor, all the requisite warnings and thoughts were given and the member decided to do what is best.

Whether or not it works...this member is more than willing to share the success or failure of it. IMO, this has been the case up to this point.

HTH.

 

[FMJnaX]

Whether or not it works...this member is more than willing to share the success or failure of it. IMO, this has been the case up to this point.

HTH.

Thanks JChillin.... I was able to cure the Hole in the Head disease when it looked as if he wouldn't live through another night. I should be more than able to keep a planted tank; even if it is just Anacharis, moneywort, and anubias (plants known to be left along by goldies for the most part). There's nothing I won't try once, money permitting. ONDO and DIY CO2 on a planted goldfish tank is one of them.

 

[rubysoho]

FMJnaX, thanks for the info on how you trained the goldfish, they is pretty crazy Interesting how they are different then how you train a dog.

 

[travis simonson]

...ultimately it is the fish and their health that really matters.

I couldn't agree more. The health of the fish in my tank is my primary concern. If I can get away with growing plants at the same time then that's just gravy If anything about the plants or their needs appears to be causing problems for my fish then I will change it out of concern for the fish. I prefer to look at it in the sense that I am keeping plants in my fish tank rather than keeping fish in my planted tank.

 

[BrianNY]

I've been following this thread for sometime without posting. Time to add wisdom a la BrianNY. LOL

Just because conventional knowledge says something can't or shouldn't be done doesn't make it so. FMJnaX is to be commended for several reasons. Not only did he undertake something new and unusual, he documented his steps along the way. Ya gotta like that!!! People who try new things are aware that success seldom comes without a series of failures first. It's a rare quality to be able to see ones failures as a learning experience and persevere from there. Just think how many times those Wright boys were told they'd never get that crazy bicycle to fly.

 

[Jchillin]

Agreed:

From Columbus to the present day, discoveries are made by pioneers who are willing to "go against the grain". I'm sure this conversation took place at one time or another:

"What are you doing?"
"I'm putting plants in the tank"
"Are you insane...you can't do that."

 

[greenmaji]

I feel like I was encouraging the over driving of the NO lights and increase in the temperature of the tank was little but still measurable.. I was aware that FMJnaX had his goldie and I personally thought that a planted tank with a goldie would be a good idea, hoping that the water would not become to warm from the use of the new lights, but I can say from doing the research before advising FMJnaX to try ODNO that I read that CF lighting was a little hotter.. I thought that CF would have been the next best advise to get more light into the tank, so ODNO would be better in that case? I dont know.. as for my confusion about the words tropical temperatures I guess that I make mistakes to but try to acknowledge the mistakes I make.. I hope the idea of ODNO is not harmed by the goldfish argument I just felt personally attached to the argument considering the increased heat was in a way my fault for recommending the upgrade to the lighting.. I personally planned on upgrading a NO fixture for my tank before putting the tank up.. I hope that I can do half as well to document it as FMJnaX did!
And Steve being compelled to have a planted Goldie tank is to me!