Help me change my substrate..

[candymancan]

Hey guys, question for you... I had another thread up asking how to go about removing my Under gravel filter, and when it came to the rocks in my tank someone suggested I use eco complete...

Now I have seen a lot of video's on youtube on dustins fish tanks and other channel where they talk about dirted tanks... If I were to remove all my blue rocks in my 27g hexagon and go with a substrate like that.. How would I go about doing that ? And what kinda of dirt do I need to get ?

I was actually thinking maybe put a layer of dirt and then a layer of eco complete but Im not sure exactly as I haven't ever used anything but gravel in my tanks... Another question would be... if I use dirt it wont like make my tank murky like driftwood does will it ? And wouldn't the dirt just like any plants to use in clay pots eventually lose its nutrients ? I don't have much money to spend, as I have spent probably $5-700 on buying my 55g, getting plants for all 3 tanks and getting fish.. basically I transformed all my tanks and got a new one.. So yea please don't go crazy when you recommend stuff


Or maybe to be cost effective... can I just use potting mix and re-use my blue gravel ? I really want to remove my blue gravel because im just sick of the blue color I have had for 14 years... but Im worried removing the gravel will remove most of my bacteria and since I have a ton of fish in my tank im worried I'll have ammonia and nitrite spikes... so maybe its best to just remove my gravel use potting mix and put my gravel over top of it ? I dunno what do you guys think ? I wanted to go with more of a black gravel TBH

Im sure Rivercats probably know a lot about this.. where ever you are

 

[jbueno]

To do dirt u would have to empty the tank. ..start from scratch...to change just the gravel in my 55 without removing all my fish and **** I went from sand to eco complete by removing portions of the sand removing it all the way to the glas not just remove the top. Do 25% wait a week do another 25% then add back about 33% of eco wait a week. Pull out another 25% of sand then add 25% eco wait a week. Then the last week I pulled the rest of the sand toped off my eco and I was done didnt remove any fish30+ and shrimps100+ but that was alot of work but I dont mind I enjoy this hobby but ur right it isnt cheap but amazon helps alot at the time I got all my eco complete off of amazon for 15-20 bucks a bag and free shipping with Amazon prime...all fish stuff there is cheaper than any lfs or big box store can do...check it out

 

[Mebbid]

Dirting a tank isn't really necessary at all. If you are using eco complete that should be just fine to help the plants grow. Even when using the plant substrates and / or dirt for your tank you will still need to add root tabs for the heavy root feeders like an amazon sword.

So if I'm understanding this correctly you currently are using an UGF correct? If that's your primary source of filtration before you do anything I would buy the filter you want for your tank and run it at the same time as the UGF for 2+ weeks to get the new filter cycled. I would also add a filter bag full of your current gravel to the new filter as well. Doing this will help minimize the cycle.

As for changing out the gravel, just pull out all of your livestock and pull out al the gravel and UGF. When it's out you can add the eco complete, however you will probably need to do a massive water change to get the detritus out of the water. When the tank is settled back in then go through a reacclimation process for your fish as if you had just bought them.

 

[hopper055]

sponge filter

I wouldn't dream about doing any of this with fish in. I would be scared it would stress my fish/crawdad out to much to be in the middle of that. I would move all living creatures to another tank or anywhere that wouldn't kill them. Then drain the tank and go about removing the Under gravel filter and all the gravel. I would also start a sponge filter and hob filter a few weeks before I planed to do this so I could have them up and running with the bacteria ready to colonize the new tank. Remember to put all your decorations filter media in some tank water that you drained out so the bacteria wont die/starve. And have every thing laid out and ready so you can do this relatively quickly no need to rush and hurt someone, yourself, other living creatures. But fish need to be making food for your bacteria again. If you draw it out to long like a few days you risk your beneficial bacteria dyeing because they have nothing to eat. I also like mebbid's idea of a media bag with cycled gravel in it
And if I were you I would look into sand as a substrate it can be (dirt) cheep like $4 a bag and 3/4 of the bag was enough for my 20 gallon. My fish love to play in it and my crayfish loves to push it around so much my dad calls him Tonka.

 

[jbueno]

I wouldn't dream about doing any of this with fish in. I would be scared it would stress my fish/crawdad out to much to be in the middle of that. I would move all living creatures to another tank or anywhere that wouldn't kill them. Then drain the tank and go about removing the Under gravel filter and all the gravel. I would also start a sponge filter and hob filter a few weeks before I planed to do this so I could have them up and running with the bacteria ready to colonize the new tank. Remember to put all your decorations filter media in some tank water that you drained out so the bacteria wont die/starve. And have every thing laid out and ready so you can do this relatively quickly no need to rush and hurt someone, yourself, other living creatures. But fish need to be making food for your bacteria again. If you draw it out to long like a few days you risk your beneficial bacteria dyeing because they have nothing to eat. I also like mebbid's idea of a media bag with cycled gravel in it
And if I were you I would look into sand as a substrate it can be (dirt) cheep like $4 a bag and 3/4 of the bag was enough for my 20 gallon. My fish love to play in it and my crayfish loves to push it around so much my dad calls him Tonka.

Thats why I did a little at a time. No rushing and when I went back to add my eco I rinsed the eco with the drained water from my tank then cup by cup slowly added my eco...I thought he had already pulled his ugf out bc he had another thread but if he just wants to change his gravel little by little will work fine and another option is also he could just pull out about half and add eco and mix them together and that will work with no damage to anything because he has and ugf holding his bioload the way eco works may not be the best for ugf bc eco will make the small stuff shift to bottom and the larger stuff will work its way but ive nvr done that so good luck...

 

[candymancan]

Well I have a HOB and UGF... that's the thing... When we bought this tank and my 30g which also uses UGF it came with a UGF and HOB filters... been running them both in combination at the same time.

From what I read online.. the way im trying to do this is I called the walstad method ? Basically, putting 1 1/2 inch thick layer of Miracle grow organic potting mix on the bottom.. Keeping the outside edges gravel so you don't see the dirt.. Then put some red pottery clay in the dirt for iron.. Then to layer all that with your gravel or what not of choice.. Supposedly doing it like this with potting mix you don't need to use CO2 anymore, and you don't need to dose anymore ferts.. This is my ultimate objective to get better nutrients to my plants as im using a a lot of colored plants in my tank and I doubt my gravel even though it has a lot of fish poop in it and I dose ferts is giving enough nutrients for my plants.. I mean they are growing fine.. and seem to actually be keeping colors to a point but still..

This is why I was thinking of removing my UGF and changing the entire substrate out.. But I wasn't sure if I should keep my old blue rocks... or go with black rocks.. Im a little tired of looking at the blue rocks but as we know it has all my bacteria in it for my cycle not counting my HOB.. So if I go with new rocks I might be killing all my fish if I start a new cycle..

Anyway I found a local store that sells red clay.. but its laguna clay and supposedly has like a 10-12% iron content which from what I red is a a lot of iron and might be too much iron and they only sell 25 lbs bags lol.. I only need like 1lbs or less... so I buy this I guess ill be using the rest to touch up my potting skills or something.. lol.. The miracle grow organic mix is only $10.. 1 Bag of black rocks $15, I have half a bag left from my 55g... So I'll only be spending like $30 in all..

I mean what do you guys think... Look at my picture... Do you think this setup the way it is.. Would look better completetly black.. or does the blue look good to you ? I would pretty much setup the tank back to looking like this.. I do have a red tiger lotus in front now but yea

 

[Mebbid]

Do you have a link to what you read?

The biggest problem I see with what you say is that it's telling you that you will no longer require a carbon source which is 100% false. There is no substitute to regular carbon additions whether it's co2 or excel.

Also, there aren't many root feeders compared to plants that feed from the water. The ferts will need to be added to the water column as well. Also, heavy root feeders quickly exhaust the nutrients in the substrate around them. Once they are gone from what's in the potting soil then it will need additional ferts.

If you are worried about the plants not getting enough nutrients form the substrate, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. Very very successful planted tanks have been run solely on root tabs and inert sand.

 

[candymancan]

Well I cant use root tabs in my tank the UGF dissolves them immediately and clouds the water up..

Look up the walstad method... from what I read... it claims that the soil wont lose nutrients because all the food and waste matter will get into the gravel and go down to the dirt replenishing the food.. I dunno, I think that's why my plants currently are growing good because the rocks are literally filled with lots of organic matter due to being setup for so long.. like if I vacuum the rocks right now itll have tons of crap come up..

I dunno this is what everyone says on google when I read about it.. and apparently the Miracle grow organic mix is made of mostly peat.. and that's where the plants get there co2 from.. I dunno it seems everyone is convinced it works who does that.. But yea my worry was the dirt losing its nutrients like plants in pots do overtime and i'll have to tear up the entire tank and start over again...

That's why im not sure if I should do dirt... or just leave my UGF in and keep going with that im doing... my plants are growing.. nothing is dying or turning yellow so obviously what im doing now is working...



Here is a link to what im talking about... it doesn't mention the co2 or anything but if you just look up the Diana walstad method you'll find all kinds of stuff

http://gwapa.org/wordpress/articles/mineralized-soil-substrate/

 

[jbueno]

Well I cant use root tabs in my tank the UGF dissolves them immediately and clouds the water up..

Look up the walstad method... from what I read... it claims that the soil wont lose nutrients because all the food and waste matter will get into the gravel and go down to the dirt replenishing the food.. I dunno, I think that's why my plants currently are growing good because the rocks are literally filled with lots of organic matter due to being setup for so long.. like if I vacuum the rocks right now itll have tons of crap come up..

I dunno this is what everyone says on google when I read about it.. and apparently the Miracle grow organic mix is made of mostly peat.. and that's where the plants get there co2 from.. I dunno it seems everyone is convinced it works who does that.. But yea my worry was the dirt losing its nutrients like plants in pots do overtime and i'll have to tear up the entire tank and start over again...

That's why im not sure if I should do dirt... or just leave my UGF in and keep going with that im doing... my plants are growing.. nothing is dying or turning yellow so obviously what im doing now is working...

Here is a link to what im talking about... it doesn't mention the co2 or anything but if you just look up the Diana walstad method you'll find all kinds of stuff

http://gwapa.org/wordpress/articles/mineralized-soil-substrate/

Its on you how much effort do you want to put into it...
To pull the ugf u would have to do a complete break down pull eveything out or
You can leave eveything and change like half of the grave or what ever bc using the ugf it holds alot of bio load...

The article does mention with his last two builds he uses co2 and high lighting which should go hand and hand anyway...

 

[candymancan]

Well I decided to get CaribSea Floramax instead.. Aparently its the same thing as eco complete just doesn't have the bacteria in it. It was $10 a bag at petsmart for a 15 lbs bag wayyyy cheaper then eco complete.. I bought 2 bags of the Midnight black color..

What do you guys think of this stuff ? I read I need to rinse the crap out of it.. what do you think ? Im getting ready to pull my plants out and scoop my fish up and remove my UGF and rocks... This is gonna be fun lol.. I opted nto to go with dirt because I just don't wanna mess with that and I also don't want to mess with tannins in the water

 

[jbueno]

Cool take before and after pictures

 

[Rivercats]

It will be easy to change over to that substrate but you need to remove your fish to a suitable tub or bucket and put their filter and heater in. Remove plants and put in another bucket with tank water. Then empty your tank, remove the UGF, and clean the rest of the tank out. Rinse the heck out of that substrate and put it in the tank, fill partially, put plants in, finish filling. Then I'd let the tank sit 2-4 hours to let things settle. Put the heater back on and filter, then about 30 minutes later put the fish in if the temps are good.

 

[candymancan]

Ok wow.... you weren't kidding about rinsing the heck out of this stuff...


This stuff is like silty as hell... lol I washed it for like 10 minutes each bucket full and it still was dusty... I put it in my tank and my tank water is solid black/brown... Good thing I scooped my fish out before hand lol... I don't think 2 15lbs bags is though.. I cant tell how thick it is right now though because the water is literally black lol..

Here is the tank right now.. I have my fish in a 2 gallon water dispenser with my air stone and heater a little bit of prime.. You can see them on my desk on the left in the first pic. Seconds pic is my plants and old rocks in the buckets.. Oh and check out my brand new filter... it turned black and slimy from the crud in my old gravel and the silt in the new gravel in like 1 hour.

edit: nvm I swooshed the rocks around to try to make it even by touch since I cant see the bottom lol.. Its pretty deep actually... up to my knuckle on my pointing finger.. So about 3 inches deep... Is that too deep ? Im wondering if I should scoop some out

 

[candymancan]

Is this too deep ?

 

[Sillyfishies]

It's all your preference. Cloudiness doesn't effect fish... Poop however does.

 

[candymancan]

I dunno bout that I can see the dust floating around like a sand storm.. Im gonna keep em in my bucket with the bubbles and heater until it settles more... its taking forever though

 

[candymancan]

Man its been like 5 hours now.. tank is still cloudy.. I feel bad for my 25 fish in my 2 gallon bucket.... geesh... A lot settled on the bottom but I stired it back up by swirling the water around (not the rocks) I want my filters to get as much of it as they can. I decided to turn my power head on and put it near the bottom of the tank to keep the stuff stirred up... It settles all over my driftwood and amazon sword I put in leaving a dust layer on everything lol..

I just rinsed my filters in a bucket of tank water and the water in the bucket was black after.

EDIT: its now been 10 hours since I first put the floramax in the tank... I have repeadidly swirled the water near the bottom to kick up the dust so it will get filterd (this dust is like volcanic ash....) and I have also continually rinsed my filter and I add 2 more floss filters on the filter one in front and one in back to help filtration.. The water is now clear enough that I can see through it. I add'd my driftwood and my plants back and everything is coming together.. My fish have been in my 2g container on my desk for 10 hours now... I have like 24 fish in there too... ammonia from lasted I checked was at 1ppm in the container so I added some prime again to keep them from getting sick..

Im debating on putting the fish back in the tank.. My only problem with that is the tank is still cloudy and I can actually see the dust in the water circulating.. Im worried that will get into the gills of the fish and harm them.. Since they aren't dying in my container I think I'll leave them in there for the time being... Here is new picture of my tank.. I love the new look... The floramax rocks are really tiny.. like a sand "sorta" and the color is Jet black and has a little bit of red specs in it... Its 4 inchs deep in some spots compared to only 2 inches of my blue gravel.. My red tiger lotus is the only plant that isn't doing too well.. its lost 3 pretty good sized leaves I hope it will recover.

 

[Rivercats]

I dunno bout that I can see the dust floating around like a sand storm.. Im gonna keep em in my bucket with the bubbles and heater until it settles more... its taking forever though

It's a good idea to keep them in the bucket because too much dirt/dust particles in the water can actually kill some fish. Learned that the hard way once. Doing a couple WC's will help a lot.

 

[candymancan]

I put them in early this morning. The tank is fairly clear now. Still white but nothing like the pics.. Everyone is doing fine. No loses.. Just gatta keep an eye on my ammonia since i changed out my rocks i imagine im going to go through a short cycle..

Gonna change 50% of the water later today and use my gravel vacuum over or partially on the rocks to suck up some dust that settled... Other then that tank is done.. My tiger lotus broke in two... Not sure what up with that but i wonder if the new second half will grow... Guess ill find out. But yea i love these rocks... No more blue.. Lol

 

[Mebbid]

I put them in early this morning. The tank is fairly clear now. Still white but nothing like the pics.. Everyone is doing fine. No loses.. Just gatta keep an eye on my ammonia since i changed out my rocks i imagine im going to go through a short cycle..

Gonna change 50% of the water later today and use my gravel vacuum over or partially on the rocks to suck up some dust that settled... Other then that tank is done.. My tiger lotus broke in two... Not sure what up with that but i wonder if the new second half will grow... Guess ill find out. But yea i love these rocks... No more blue.. Lol

I'm sure it will be awesome. I loved when I upgraded from clown vomit myself

Yes the tiger lotus should grow into 2 different plants. A 2 for 1 deal!