help me diagnose my plant problems?

[Masha]

I've got a number of problems with plants in my low light, low tech tank. I suspect I've got an imbalance of light / nutrients, and I'm hoping somebody can point me in the right direction.

Specs:
90 litre tank, (23 gallons)
I don't add CO2
I do weekly water changes of about 40%
Ammonia and nitrites 0
Nitrates are under 12.5 after a week
PH 7.6
Temperature 25.6 Centigrade (78 Fahrenheit)

I don't know any of the other measurements, KH, GH, Phosphates etc. The tests are incredibly expensive here so I've only got the basic ones. I suspect the water is high in calcium because my apple snail shells healed right up after the broke, filling in a big hole in just a few days.

Lighting - a single 20w fluorescent t8 tube on for 8 hours a day

Filter - Aquaclear 70

I've got quite a few ramshorn snails and two pagoda snails (who I've never seen near the plants although they're supposed to eat plants? Also their new additions so I don't think they are relevant )

Do I need to specify the fish? Black skirts, swordtails, cories, silvertip tetras, one java loach.

Plants are anubias, hornwort, java fern, java moss, a lily, and something else I don't know what it is with small leaves.

Also some emergent plants - a small pothos vine and a fairly well established philodendron dangling their roots in the water. Small maidenhair fern rooted in the filter.

My problems -
The new anubia leaves look just a little buckled, and the older ones look discoloured and speckled. Not algea growing on them, more like they are a little worn away. Could that be the ramshorn snails?

Same for the java fern - it looks rippled, and has sort of worn, brownish, almost coppery spots. I recently removed the worst ones, they get progressively worse:

The small leaf plant (don't know what it is) is ok, but I don't think it gets enough light, only the leaves at the top really look good. I cut off the tips and replant them, which is why there are stronger leaves near the bottom now:

You can see the lily in this ^^ picture too - I put a Tetra root tab in with it, but I'm not sure how often to renew that. It looks ok, producing new leaves and growing quite quickly.

I've also got a BBA problem on the driftwood. It's been getting slowly, slowly worse.

I tried adding a bit of Seachem Flourish, but all that seems to happen is I instantly get a lot of olive brown algae growing on the glass.

I suspect the light is really too dim, you can see it doesn't stretch all the way across the tank and there's a bright spot in the middle.

Any advice?

 

[Rivercats]

The plants are showing nutrient deficiencies. Plus nitrates are low before a WC so afterwards they have to be under 10ppm which is not good for plants, especially since the potho's and others use a lot of nitrates and other nutrients from the water (which is why your nitrates are on the low side to begin with).

How long are you running lights daily? If your getting algae when adding nutrients/ferts then most likely your running lights too long. You need to add both micro and macro nutrients/ferts but only run lighting 6 hours. After a few weeks you can slowly increase your photoperiod. You do have low light.

 

[Masha]

Yes - I'm running the lights 8 hours a day. I can decrease that to 6 hours.

So should I do smaller water changes or remove the emergent plants to not have such low nitrates?

Any suggestions about what fertilizers I should be adding? What would micro and macro nutrients be?

 

[Rivercats]

I'm not sure what products you have available in your country but macro's would be potassium nitrate KNO3, mono potassium phosphate KH2PO4, and potassium sulfate K2SO4 in dry ferts. Then micro's are iron and a bunch of other ones. In dry ferts it would be Plantex CSM+B. Or Seachem makes a line of plant ferts that has macro and micro nutrients. You already have the Flourish Comp which is mostly micro's with a touch of macro's.

You don't want to cut down on WC's as many more toxins build up in an aquarium other than nitrates. You can remove the other plants but honestly I wouldn't as they add character to the tank IMO. Personally I would just add nutrients and maybe even use a liquid carbon such as API CO2 Booster or Excel to help with growth and photosynthesis in such a low light tank.

Something else to think about is maybe adding a nano powerhead like the Koralia 240 at the other end of the tank from the filter to increase water flow in the tank.

You can remove the DW and pour Hydrogen Peroxide 3% solution over it and let it sit for 15 minutes. Then just put back in the tank. It is safe and will dissipate very quickly so you don't need to rinse the DW off.

 

[Masha]

Thanks Rivercats, that helps.
I'm glad you don't think I need to remove the external plants - I love them

We have the Seachem range here, that's the one I remember seeing in the shops, so I'll look at those. I'll particularly look at adding Seachem Excel. I have the impression that might also help reduce the BBA?

I've been wondering about the flow in the tank. Adding a powerhead might be a good idea.

Do you think I need to increase the lighting? Assuming I address the nutrient problems - or is it a case of "fix one thing at a time?"

Also, is it better to just start with one change - e.g. adding Excel, and then maybe some of the other nutrients later, or should I try to get it right all in one go?


Is there any particular water test that would be essential - e.g. for phosphates?

 

[Rivercats]

I don't know what brands of test kits you have there but I use the API Phosphate test kit. In a planted tank you want to shoot for 10-20ppm nitrates and 1-3ppm phosphates.

I would just stay on your WC schedule and begin dosing once you get the products. Excel is a liquid carbon, not a fert, and dissipates in 12-24 hours in the aquarium so you use it daily right before lights come on. The fertilizers are used as directed "or" use them to keep nitrates and phosphates at the levels you want them.

Be sure to use a very small or nano powerhead since you have a small tank. You don't want to blow your plants and fish away... lol!

I would wait on lighting and take things one step at a time. You may find you don't need to upgrade unless you get into plants that require higher light.

 

[Masha]

Thanks, that's very helpful. I'm going to get some Excel, and see if the phosphate test is within my budget

 

[aqua_chem]

I'm not sure that there's much value in a phosphate test in this particular circumstance. A single 20w T8 over this tank is not going to be providing very much light, especially if it doesn't have a very good reflector on it (most don't). Your phosphate's aren't going to be limiting in that environment, as more likely than not light, carbon, or micronutrients are going to be limiting. Coupled with the fact that you don't have algae suggestive of a deficiency (GSA) or yellow spots on your plants, I can say with some confidence that it's not a phosphate issue.

Regarding nitrate, yes you should ideally be keeping it above 10 ppm, but that's really a buffer rather than a cutoff where you start seeing deficiencies. You're not going to run into problems as long as you have nitrates present, and with that stocking it shouldn't be a problem even 24h after a water change.

I would think an AC 70 would be good enough for a 23g tank. It's rated at 300 gph, and even with fudged numbers it should be sufficient. Does it look like you're getting good movement? Is it turned up all the way?



Are those spots on the plants, or will they scrub off with some effort? How old is this tank?

 

[Masha]

Aqua chem, the spots won't scrub off. The tank is a year old now. I'm not sure if there is good movement throughout the tank, the filter has a pretty strong flow. I usually keep it turned down.

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[Rivercats]

The OP does have algae problems especially when she doses Flourish Comprehensive and the Anubia has discolored leaves and spots. New leaves are growing in with curled edges.

OP here is a plant deficiency chart in this thread that might help to look at especially since you can see exactly what is wrong with plants.... Plant deficiency diagram

 

[aqua_chem]

Ok, I missed the part about the yellowing spots. But that still doesn't change my view on phosphate tests. If it quacks and has feathers, treat it like a duck. If you're not sure if it's quacking or not, you can still treat it like a duck and see what happens. Phosphates are pretty benign in freshwater tanks despite some of the beliefs deeply rooted in the hobby; you can always add mild amounts and see what happens. I'm probably underestimating the emergent plants in this tank and their ability to consume phosphates, if that is indeed the issue.

With the curling leaves, that's a potentially interesting issue. You say that you have brown algae bloom whenever you add flourish comp? That suggests to me you have at least two problems in the tank; one is superseding the other, and once it's corrected, the other problem takes over. What does this brown algae look like? Are you adding the Flourish per directions?

You can also try turing up your filter slowly to increase circulation and see if that helps anything.

I suspect that the black dinginess growing on some of your plants is also BBA (it has many forms). Unfortunately, that's pretty common with slower growing plants. Excel or any other glut product will probably help this as well.

 

[jetajockey]

I just wanted to ask about the lighting. How old is the bulb? I get BBA for one of two reasons usually, the first being a lack of, or fluctuating co2, on a tank with pretty decent lighting. The other reason I've noticed is when my bulbs start getting age on them, they tend to go hand in hand with bba outbreaks.

As far as the curling leaves, I didn't see any major curling (may have missed it), most of my anubas plants, nana especially, sometimes grow like that. It's still not a bad idea to make sure you have a good range of micros going into the tank to cover all of those bases. Algae outbreaks after dosing ferts (especially just a basic microfert like flourish) is a sign of some other issue, as aqua_chem noted.

May or may not be the answer, but figured I'd share.

 

[aqua_chem]

The other reason I've noticed is when my bulbs start getting age on them, they tend to go hand in hand with bba outbreaks.

How long does it take before you start observing this? It's pretty well accepted in the SW scene that this happens, especially the their BGA (if I recall correctly), but I've been pretty dubious of this in FW.

 

[jetajockey]

I've gotten into the habit of changing out my t5s and t8s (moving these to LED this year) annually, but it's always been something i narrowed down to a fixture that was using some unknown (but old) bulbs, whether they be CFL or t8 tube.

My latest experience with it was with a pair of CFLs over a 40bs that consistently grew BBA all over the tank surface. Tank was not dosed with anything, received weekly water changes, was only lightly planted, and had 2 nitrate factory jack dempseys in it. Decided to put new bulbs in it and clean the tank up and never had the problem again.

 

[Masha]

The only leaves that are yellowing are older anubia leaves, and those are sort of equally discoloured all over, not yellow in defined spots.

The java fern older leaves get sort of sunken, bronze spots all over. There is Algae as well on many of the leaves, small dark speckles.

I dosed the flourish according to recommended amount, but only tried it once or twice because of the resulting algae . The algae that appears then is a soft, slimy olive brown film that takes a bit of rubbing to get off.

The light is probably about a year old, maybe less, I'll have to check.

Thanks for that link, Rivercats I'll have a look at it now.

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[Rivercats]

The algae you described above sounds like Rhizoclonium. It can be brownish in color and is soft and slimy.

 

[aqua_chem]

Pictures of that algae would help if you happen to have them.


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[Masha]

Looking at the diagram that Rivercats linked to, I've got a better idea of how to describe the problems.

I recently removed a lot of the old leaves, so that disguises the problem somewhat, but from what I observe now, I've got some leaves on the anubias that look to me like Phosphate deficiency - older leaves discoloured / yellow, parts of the leaf (especially the edges and tips) ragged dead patches.

I don't see signs of iron deficiency (yellowing of entire plant)

Some of the new leaves are a bit buckled and twisted, some are not so I'm not sure about that.

I'm struggling to get an in focus photo of the algae The soft brown algae I mentioned that appears after I dosed with Flourish is all wiped away by now, but many of the other leaves have a coating of dark algae that almost makes the leaf look bruised.

I'll see if I can get a proper picture.

What I'm doing for now is I cut the photo period down to 6 hours a day, got some Excell, and am dosing with that daily, plus a once weekly dose of Flourish Comprehensive.

 

[Rivercats]

Here's a link for looking at pic's of different types of algae... James' Planted Tank - Algae Guide

 

[philipraposo198]

Nitrates ate too low which will mean the same for phosphates.

Dose both of these. Low phos means green spot algae which you have on anubias.

Low nitrates can lead to bba. Which you have too.

If new growth is deformed it generally die to low micros.

Basically you need to get ferts and start dosing properly.

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