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Old 03-14-2021, 09:27 PM   #21
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WOW!

A week of strong aeration with continued cleaning and the burgeoning algae storm is completely at bay. The big fresh rainwater change certainly didn't hurt either

Removed the trays today for careful pruning and a rinse in fresh flowing rainwater. Already multi-inch root growth through holes I drilled in the trays which is surely a good sign--particularly for the red pearl plants. While out I adjusted the root lines and topped up the trays with sand/gravel.

Am increasingly optimistic this will prove an excellent way to introduce pre-established plants into a large (160-gallon) established community of fish not always considered "compatible" with each other or some plantings.

Have some higher intensity 2' full-spectrum fixtures on their way as I'm going to pour on the light for a while.

10 Amano shrimp also on the way to add to the plant tank along with the objects I've wrapped in Java moss. Hope to raise the shrimp until they're 2+ cm, add to the permanent home which contains five adult blood red parrots and one adult firemouth cichlid for them NOT to be food.
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Old 03-15-2021, 03:27 AM   #22
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WOW!

A week of strong aeration with continued cleaning and the burgeoning algae storm is completely at bay. The big fresh rainwater change certainly didn't hurt either

Removed the trays today for careful pruning and a rinse in fresh flowing rainwater. Already multi-inch root growth through holes I drilled in the trays which is surely a good sign--particularly for the red pearl plants. While out I adjusted the root lines and topped up the trays with sand/gravel.

Am increasingly optimistic this will prove an excellent way to introduce pre-established plants into a large (160-gallon) established community of fish not always considered "compatible" with each other or some plantings.

Have some higher intensity 2' full-spectrum fixtures on their way as I'm going to pour on the light for a while.

10 Amano shrimp also on the way to add to the plant tank along with the objects I've wrapped in Java moss. Hope to raise the shrimp until they're 2+ cm, add to the permanent home which contains five adult blood red parrots and one adult firemouth cichlid for them NOT to be food.

That sounds excellent. Iíve seen so many good examples of tanks using soil and air. Cleaning also adds oxygen and helps reduce biological oxygen demand.

Sounds like theyíre ready to make the switch?

Be careful with that extra light and also, as the organic material in the soil is broken down, plant growth may slow up over time.
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Old 03-15-2021, 08:28 AM   #23
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Sounds like they’re ready to make the switch?
Yes, I think they are ready for a permanent home but I'm not done with them yet

Still want to see new leaves on the ozelot swords and red pearls. These showed good root growth but still little above. The youngest leaves on the ozelots were the above-water variety and beginning to die back so they're all removed.

Am also wrapping some decorations in Java moss and want them to get going before the move.

Plus I'm determined to attempt some Amano shrimp in the big tank. Ten are on their way and I hope to grow them up rapidly in the plant tank.

Will be careful with the lighting although I'm planning on some algae growth for the hungry new crabs due to arrive in a couple days.

The planting trays seem to have worked perfectly. If you're curious I used "Aquascape 89002 Pond Planting Media" and "Carib Sea Super Naturals Crystal River Sand" in the trays.

Really nice to remove the plants to easily and cleanly trim away dead growth, add media, rinse in rain water, etc. while not truly disturbing them. I don't intend to do such once in their permanent home but it's nice to know it can be done if need be.
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Old 03-25-2021, 08:34 PM   #24
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WOW!

High lighting 10 hours per day for a week. This was something I only dreamed about three decades ago without extreme heat and expense when I last enjoyed the hobby.

This afternoon after about 8 hours of lighting the entire tank is shimmering with oxygen bubbles originating from the edges of all the plant leaves. I thought the water was cloudy!
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Old 03-27-2021, 11:20 AM   #25
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Here are some more photos. I used LOTS of light to increase the depth of field.

The 10 amano shrimp didn't make it 24 hours. Either the guppies ate them (they were certainly going after them) or they crawled out via small gaps around air hoses. The guppies are doing a nice job of keeping the plants clean.

Still plan to wait at least a couple more weeks before putting into their permanent home.
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Old 04-09-2021, 11:55 AM   #26
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Kept up the very high lighting for another week then returned to moderate.

There was a huge amount of new growth as the remaining original above water leaves began to die off. After another trimming the various swords now have only underwater leaves most of which are newly sprouted.

The anubias nana have developed an excellent root network. The rhizomes are growing quickly and I should soon be able to remove sections for new plantings soon. Many of their original leaves were removed in the first trimming.

The red pearl swords (Echinodorus Hadi) look particularly attractive. The 4-leaf clover (Marsilea crenata) and wisteria both remain slow to grow and spread.
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Old 04-13-2021, 02:25 PM   #27
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Itís more likely that the plantís which have a thicker fast growing root system that penetrates the soil will do better. Stem plants can be difficult to grow without enough co2. The large root system are probably much better at transposing co2 from carbonates in the soil. Youíre always going to get the winners and the losers in tanks with low co2 levels.
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Old 04-14-2021, 06:33 PM   #28
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Itís more likely that the plantís which have a thicker fast growing root system that penetrates the soil will do better. Stem plants can be difficult to grow without enough co2. The large root system are probably much better at transposing co2 from carbonates in the soil. Youíre always going to get the winners and the losers in tanks with low co2 levels.
Yes, the wisteria (what I think you mean by "stem plant") is by far the slowest to establish and grow. It was also rather poor looking upon receipt with very long leafless stems and only 8 centimeters or so of sparse leafy growth at the ends. I've topped and replanted them as they seem to break off with zero success using my tree trunk fingers but MUCH better using an inexpensive and highly useful aquarium plant tool set purchased about a month ago. Since then the ones embedded to the bottom of the trays with said tools [seem] to be growing nicely.

Please define "not enough CO2". Lots of aeration and surface movement in this tank, a light animal load and it seems lightly planted compared to the amazing photos I see of highly (dare I say over?) planted tanks that surely require lots of CO2 fertilization.

My goal is to nurture healthy, robust plants to move into a large tank as part of a genuine community that is as self-sustaining as possible in an artificial environment.
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Old 04-17-2021, 03:59 AM   #29
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Yes, the wisteria (what I think you mean by "stem plant") is by far the slowest to establish and grow. It was also rather poor looking upon receipt with very long leafless stems and only 8 centimeters or so of sparse leafy growth at the ends. I've topped and replanted them as they seem to break off with zero success using my tree trunk fingers but MUCH better using an inexpensive and highly useful aquarium plant tool set purchased about a month ago. Since then the ones embedded to the bottom of the trays with said tools [seem] to be growing nicely.



Please define "not enough CO2". Lots of aeration and surface movement in this tank, a light animal load and it seems lightly planted compared to the amazing photos I see of highly (dare I say over?) planted tanks that surely require lots of CO2 fertilization.



My goal is to nurture healthy, robust plants to move into a large tank as part of a genuine community that is as self-sustaining as possible in an artificial environment.

Well there are many factors involved with co2 and co2 uptake. Itís not a very water soluble gas and it diffuses slowly. The surrounding air has around 400ppm of co2 and co2 has an air diffusion coefficient of 16mm2/s. To travel a 1.6m tank around 100 seconds. The diffusion coefficient of co2 in water is 0.0016mm2/s and for the same tank 11.5 days. So we know water movement is good. But you could still be moving around a very small concentration of co2.

As mentioned surrounding air has around 400ppm of co2 but co2 in equilibrium with pure h2o at a certain temperature at sea level gives you a theoretical value of around 0.5ppm co2. This value is slightly higher in an average fish tank with biological activity but not much. The usual assumption is around 3ppm. High tech keepers aim for 10 x this amount at 30ppm and many natural waters will have between 10-20ppm. If you use a bubbler or high surface agitation you will drive off gases until you establish and equilibrium value. What is being produce against what is being driven off. Tanks with bubblers usually have a low level co2 equilibrium but it is constant. So plants grow but very slowly. But if there is too much light maybe not at all.

Co2 is needed for the plant make sugar which it needs to build mass. When light hits the plant it catalyses a photosynthesis response and ignites the carbon cycle. If you have lots of photons bombarding the plant it needs to find a lot of co2 from somewhere. Otherwise it will photo-respire and wither away/starve.

Many (95%) of the plants we keep are semi aquatic, so they will endure seasonal flooding. Mostly they are exposed to 400ppm in the surrounding air and have stomata to move gases in and out. When underwater the plants do not have stomata. Instead, their evolutionary tactic is to diffuse gases through their leaves. Flow helps gases overcome the leaf boundary layer and enter the plant but the plants must also grow new leaves without the waxy cuticle and produce more Ďco2 catchingí enzymes. This is in itself a very energy intense process and plants will often melt or lose their previous leaves over time before the new leaves come through. Plants with larger leaves and strong root systems have better contact with moving water and will take up more co2.

Initially, soil tanks release a lot of carbon because there is a lot of organic waste breakdown, a lot of microbes etc. If you have lots of large fish they will release co2 as will their waste and any uneaten food. If you have use a commercial Ďsoilí thereís probably no organic matter and it is just high in nutrient content so maybe less co2.

Taking all that in to consideration you need think about the plant itself. Itís needs for whatever reason are not being met. This is why we have the usual Ďlow techí plants or non demanding plants. Some of which float and access co2 directly from the air. And even amongst the low tech varieties you will have winners and losers.

One saving grace is that the majority of plants prefer harder water and can use carbonates as their carbon source though I believe it must be converted in to co2 first before it enters the calvin cycle. Again energy intensive.

When I used garden soil I never had to worry about carbonates or some of the rock minerals, calcium, magnesium. Now with sand only I add calcium carbonate in the form of crushed coral, and use occasional doses of dolomite powder CaMgCo3 which provides calcium, magnesium and carbonates. This with other fertiliser dosing has rejuvenated my sword plants. Which nutrient it was exactly is a mystery which is why it is better to supply all. You must know what your water supply has or more importantly what it doesnít as well as your substrate.

Then the last caveat is the fauna. Capturing or raising co2 levels in low tech tanks usually comes at a cost to oxygen. If you reduce the surface agitation you lose oxygen supplementation. If you add more fish the oxygen demand rises. If you add organic matter oxygen is drained massively.

If you want to keep the bubbler for your fish but want to provide carbon for plants and donít want to inject use carbonates and carbonate loving plants. Then supply all the plant essential minerals. Itís the safest way. Those in Southern UK and most parts of the USA tend to have hard water and a weekly water change could be all that is required. Thats why there are so many routes to success and so many reasons for failure and why lots of wrong conclusions are drawn whether in success or failure. We all have different starting points and we need to fill in the gaps. Its finding out what should fill that gap that is the hardest part. But Iím almost convinced more of us donít know why we succeed than why we fail.

Good luck.
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Old 04-17-2021, 01:09 PM   #30
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That was very informative and useful. Thank you. Particularly interesting is the shortage/lack of stomata in leaves that grow underwater. I was certainly aware of the importance and purpose of stomata in terrestrial leaves. This definitely explains why nearly every original leaf on many of these plants has died off with the new growth strikingly different in appearance.

I'll still forego CO2 fertilization and stick with easy-to-grow plants in reasonable quantity. You say that CO2 is poorly soluble in water but O2 is MANY times less soluble than CO2 and from what I've read about gases in solution adding CO2 literally squeezes out oxygen as the water can only hold so much total gas no matter the type.

I do though believe that the relatively high solubility of CO2 in water is the reason the rain is typically fully saturated with it (despite it's extremely low prevalence in the atmosphere) by the time it hits the ground thus making it test mildly acidic until it picks up carbonates and bicarbonates that bind up (I think this is a proper term) the carbonic acid.
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Old 04-17-2021, 04:40 PM   #31
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That was very informative and useful. Thank you. Particularly interesting is the shortage/lack of stomata in leaves that grow underwater. I was certainly aware of the importance and purpose of stomata in terrestrial leaves. This definitely explains why nearly every original leaf on many of these plants has died off with the new growth strikingly different in appearance.

I'll still forego CO2 fertilization and stick with easy-to-grow plants in reasonable quantity. You say that CO2 is poorly soluble in water but O2 is MANY times less soluble than CO2 and from what I've read about gases in solution adding CO2 literally squeezes out oxygen as the water can only hold so much total gas no matter the type.

I do though believe that the relatively high solubility of CO2 in water is the reason the rain is typically fully saturated with it (despite it's extremely low prevalence in the atmosphere) by the time it hits the ground thus making it test mildly acidic until it picks up carbonates and bicarbonates that bind up (I think this is a proper term) the carbonic acid.

Yes but in high tech tanks (during the photosynthetic period) injected co2 molecules are taken up directly by plants and an oxygen molecule is released as a waste product. This is 100% oxygen and there is only 21% in air. Thats why at some point in a high tech photoperiod there is some much gas that the oxygen released can no longer dissolve and the Ďpearlingí effect is achieved. Iím not trying to encourage co2 injection. Iím just trying to point out the many variables involved in pleasing both plants and fish
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Old 04-20-2021, 02:57 PM   #32
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Say the plants are consuming CO2 faster than it is naturally replaced. Does the ph rise when the CO2 goes below the natural saturation level for the given atmospheric conditions? Does kh buffer this rise essentially meaning that you can only change the ph level by supersaturating with CO2?
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Old 04-21-2021, 06:47 AM   #33
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Caliban07

Say the plants are consuming CO2 faster than it is naturally replaced. Does the ph rise when the CO2 goes below the natural saturation level for the given atmospheric conditions? Does kh buffer this rise essentially meaning that you can only change the ph level by supersaturating with CO2?

Hi Mike

Co2 in water is carbonic acid H2Co3. The pH will rise if acids of H+ are being removed from the equation. Conversely adding carbon dioxide (H+) will lower the pH.

When you add CO2 you haven't changed the alkalinity, you've just changed the amount of total inorganic carbon and moved the CO2 ~ HCO3- ~ pH equilibrium towards CO2, and this extra dissolved H2CO3 depresses the pH.
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Old 04-21-2021, 04:51 PM   #34
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I do have a question related but unrelated - why do plants go well in a guppy tank. Hum this is not well phrased. I have several tanks some low tech and some high tech and for some reason i find that the low tech guppy tank is able to sort of work magic on plants.
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This is a silly question i suppose but @caliban07 comments on co2 had me wondering if somehow the guppies are putting more co2 into the substrate than my other low tech non guppy tanks obtain.
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Old 04-24-2021, 06:27 PM   #35
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Ten weeks later -- many plants moved

Have moved the low and moderate light plants from the nursery tank to their permanent home. Excepting the anacharis that rooted very well in a month all the leaves you see are new growth with the original plants as received trimmed away.



Took these photos only 3 hours after "planting" my big containers and some rearrangement of the rocks. Could have taken them sooner as there was incredibly little water clouding.







Thanks again to those who have helped me through this learning experience.
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Old 04-25-2021, 04:49 PM   #36
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I do have a question related but unrelated - why do plants go well in a guppy tank. Hum this is not well phrased. I have several tanks some low tech and some high tech and for some reason i find that the low tech guppy tank is able to sort of work magic on plants.
-
This is a silly question i suppose but @caliban07 comments on co2 had me wondering if somehow the guppies are putting more co2 into the substrate than my other low tech non guppy tanks obtain.
You likely feed them properly--very lightly--making them extremely efficient little plant cleaners as they browse day and night. That's my guess. They don't eat all types of algae and can't do miracles of course. As the females are constantly pregnant and the males constantly trying to make them that way they eat a fair amount of algae for such little fish.
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Old 04-25-2021, 06:31 PM   #37
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Photos are acting strangely again.

It's been very interesting to care for the plants as they "convert" to all below water foliage. The wisteria has finally done so almost at once. Previously all of the original long stems with foliage only at the end have broken off and I've replanted numerous times.

The four-leaf clover remains extremely slow to grow and I'm beginning to suspect it just doesn't like my water or something else about the conditions.

Each time the "conversion" got going in earnest with the majority of the remaining original leaves beginning to die off there was an outburst of algae growth that required careful attention as it quickly spread throughout the tank. The worst--by far--was with the wisteria when they became infested with string algae so strong it could be used for sewing. For the third time I had to remove all of the plants and clean them carefully. The containers were great in this regard with all of the swords/similar and anacharis showing strong root growth through the small holes I drilled in the bottom. I've been gradually dividing and transplanting the microswords in their 6" x 9" (14 x 20 cm) tray and it's approaching the carpet appearance I want.

Will "plant" the rest of the trays in the high lighting side of the tank once the wisteria is growing rapidly and is reasonably tall (for the 24" deep tank) and better rooted.

We used to rent space to the one local (not big box) aquarium shop but the owner quit for a while. He's reopened and rented a larger space from us and wants me to sell some plants done in this way. They certainly can't be inexpensive but perhaps they'll sell to those who don't want to deal with the process of getting them truly ready to grow in an aquarium without the time and hassle.

Obviously I'll be getting a CO2 system soon but for plant only or plant + guppy tanks used to condition plants in the containers.

I avoided getting back into aquariums the last time he rented from us as I can get really into it...

Believe I'll concentrate on plants as they were previously impractical for me and it's something new to learn, live foods and selectively bred fancy guppies. The way my original two cory cats are breeding in the tank I'll have them to sell soon provided I can catch them. Perhaps a large siphon hose as such frequently sucks in guppies. In the five months since I purchased them as just acquired juveniles by a national store they have successfully spawned at least three times and likely more. When "planting" the plant containers in what I call "birthing corner" (the one diagonally opposite the circulator at top, right rear) with the dragon stone in the photos I encountered what I believe must have been developing eggs. Surprisingly large but I was told they enlarge significantly after being laid with newly hatched ones around 1-1/2 cm in length or the size of the smallest ones that I continue to see every three weeks or so.
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Old 04-25-2021, 06:35 PM   #38
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Old 04-27-2021, 10:32 AM   #39
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I planted the other (higher lighting) side of the tank today. Have some tall background plants ordered as the wisteria seems to be very slow growing and there's plenty of room left in the right rear corner.

The cats utterly went to work in the microsword patch and the big pleco even joined them. The microswords were already looking better than ever when the lights went out as I couldn't clean them as fully or gingerly. Haven't looked at the tank yet as they lights are still off.
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Old 04-28-2021, 12:53 PM   #40
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Yes but in high tech tanks (during the photosynthetic period) injected co2 molecules are taken up directly by plants and an oxygen molecule is released as a waste product. This is 100% oxygen and there is only 21% in air. Thats why at some point in a high tech photoperiod there is some much gas that the oxygen released can no longer dissolve and the Ďpearlingí effect is achieved. Iím not trying to encourage co2 injection. Iím just trying to point out the many variables involved in pleasing both plants and fish
I saw (and mentioned here) that "pearling" effect in the late afternoons in my low tech tank. This was when most of the plants were very actively producing new true underwater growth and I was pouring on the light and upped the dosing. The remaining original leaves seemed to burn themselves out and shortly after became covered in black algae.

The plants I've chosen are undemanding and compared to what I believe is a "heavily planted" tank mine should be moderately planted when the plants are mature.

Will be getting a CO2 system soon as I'm going to establish plants in containers and sell them via the fish store that rents from us.
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