How much CO2 do I add?

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hulkamaniac

Aquarium Advice Freak
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
455
Location
Wichita, KS
Now that I have everything I need for my CO2 system I'm realizing I don't have a clue how much I should be adding. I've looked and I'm told it should be anywhere from 10-30 ppm. I don't know where in there is reasonable. I measured my kh at 8 a while back and I've got a 75g tank with a Ph of about 7.8 right out of the tap. I've got a bubble counter on my CO2 tank. Is there a particular ammount of bubbles per minute or bubbles per sec that I should be looking for to get that great pearling effect?
 
Every tank is different as far as what it takes to get the co2 to where you want it. I can tell you that in my 55, which is heavily planted, I am running nearly 4 bubbles/sec.

I would suggest starting out slow. Give it 2 bubbles/sec. and let it run for a day. Check your pH/KH and see what you have. Adjust from there. I assume you have found one of the calculators for figuring your co2 levels? If not, here is one you can use.

It has been my experience that you should shoot for 30ppm. Now I know you will read that going over 10ppm will make the universe as we know it cease to exist. There is more than enough data out there that says this is not the case. The real issue is how much o2 do you have in the water column? If you are only lightly planted or are not feeding ferts as your plants desire, the plants may not be producing enough 02 to make the fish happy. If this is the case you can try supplementing with an airstone at night after lights/co2 is off. The reason you do not run this air stone all day long is that you will be creating a lot of agitation at the surface and since the universe likes balance, some of your hard earned co2 will escape. Think of a can of soda that has been agitated. What happens to the co2?

Ok, I have used the word universe twice, I have nothing more to say :wink:
 
With a pressurized system I would highly recommend you make a stock KH solution with baking soda and set your CO2 rate with that. DIY'ers like myself have a much more difficult time since our levels constantly fluctuate based on the age of the batch, temp, etc. You would only need to do this once or twice and then could be confident you are set right (I like to be between 30-50ppm).

It's much more accurate than KH/pH measurements, and the difference could give you an extra couple weeks on each tank (or realize you were measuring much more then was in the tank). I would then use your KH/pH check to see how inaccurate it was.

So go check the sticky in this forum, it gives detailed directions on how to pretty easily make up a solution which will let you know with good accuracy exactly how much CO2 is in the tank.

Oh, and update your profile so we know some tank specs and where you live. You might just be near someone that already has the stock solution made up, then all the work is already done for you! I'm in the SE PA area, and could supply half of this forum with 4 degree KH reference solution and still have enough left over for the rest of my life! A little goes a LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG way!
 
Well, I'm still not sure how to update my profile, but then I'm an idiot and have way too much on my plate right now.

Anyway, the tank is 75g (I always forget to add that). I'm even more confused after asking, but that may be just me. I assumed you could find out the co2 in your tank in PPM based on the Ph and the KH in your tank. Since CO2 bonds with water to form carbonic acid, then it would seem to make sense to me that you could measure the ammount of CO2 in the water by the change in PH if you knew the KH before hand. I've got one of those KH testing solutions that uses the vial of water and a dropper. Is that a bad method of testing?

Also, I was under the impression that the levels of CO2 don't affect the levesl of O2 in the tank. Am I incorrect on that point?
 
Actually I think you are right on with all of it.

Yes- You can find your co2 levels by testing for pH and KH. What 7Enigma is speaking of is the use of a drop checker. It involves mixing a solution with indicator added that will turn colors (usually from blue to green) when your co2 levels have reached a point. I is a nice simple and helpful method of monitoring your co2 levels but is not the only way. If you are comfortable with the stated method, go with it. We are searching for a range of co2 here and can tolerate quite a wide range of error for the most part.

co2 levels do not affect o2 levels. If I made it sound like it did I apologize. What I should have said is that if you do not have enough o2 in the water, the addition of co2 can become a problem.
 
hulkamaniac said:
Anyway, the tank is 75g (I always forget to add that). I'm even more confused after asking, but that may be just me. I assumed you could find out the co2 in your tank in PPM based on the Ph and the KH in your tank. Since CO2 bonds with water to form carbonic acid, then it would seem to make sense to me that you could measure the ammount of CO2 in the water by the change in PH if you knew the KH before hand. I've got one of those KH testing solutions that uses the vial of water and a dropper. Is that a bad method of testing?

Also, I was under the impression that the levels of CO2 don't affect the levesl of O2 in the tank. Am I incorrect on that point?

In a perfect tank with few dissolved solids the KH/pH relationship would work. But that is rarely the case, especially when you start dosing ferts. All of these additives have an affect on the pH and so while your KH might be correct, the measured pH (and thus extrapolated CO2 level) will not be correct. The degree of error is specific for that individual tank and can vary quite a bit.

The drop checker method eliminates all the guess work and variation. You know the liquid in the drop checker is of a certain KH and contains no other additives that could throw off the reading. It's isolated from the rest of the tank water, but is directly affected by the dissolved CO2 in the water.

If you already own one, I highly recommend using it along with the pH/KH method.

The levels of CO2 and O2 are completely independent of each other. You can have high levels of both, low levels of both, or a mixture of the 2. In a CO2 injected planted tank the dissolved CO2 and O2 levels during lighted periods are normally both high. The CO2 is artificially high because your injecting it, and the O2 level is "naturally" high because the plants are giving it off. This is readily apparent when the plants pearl (O2 saturation causing the bubbles to appear in the water).

The problem then comes when the lights go off. The same plants that were previously consuming CO2 and releasing O2 are now essentially doing the opposite (simplifying here). That means they are consuming O2 and giving off CO2. In a low flow situation or where the hood is tightly closed you can have an oxygen deficiency in the tank, AND a CO2 excess. This is not a good situation. This is why many people shut off their CO2 after the lights go out, and why many also have air pumps turn on after lights out to keep the O2 levels elevated in the tank.

A quick lesson on CO2 and O2 in respiration:

Low O2 levels are bad (obviously) because per breath your lungs/blood are getting less oxygen. Lowering the respiration rate by doing less will help alleviate this. Think about high altitude climbers. They can rest for short periods of time during a climb to re-oxygenate the blood/tissues. Your fish can do a similar thing, and fortunately most fish that are not nocturnal going into a lower "power" state which requires less oxygen. Too low is self-explanatory.

Now CO2 is a completely different beast. We don't care (fish wise) about low CO2 levels. If the water is deficient in CO2 and high in O2 your fish are loving life. Same with low CO2 and normal O2. If the water is high in CO2, however, we have a very bad situation.

When we or fish respire we use oxygen and give off carbon dioxide. The blood in the aveoli (gas sacs in the lungs) comes into contact with the air/water and CO2 diffuses into the air/water, and O2 diffuses into the blood. This is a PASSIVE DIFFUSION. That means there has to be a gradient, or high level on one side and low level on the other. We never have a problem with O2 levels since there will (normally) always be less O2 in the blood then in the atmosphere. This then readily moves from the air/water to the blood.

CO2 operates in a similar fashion. When CO2 levels are higher in the blood then the atmosphere (this is usually the case) the CO2 leaves the blood and goes into the air/water. Everyone's happy.

Now we move to the heavily planted tank when the lights turn off. The plants which had previously been saturating the water with O2 now start consuming the O2 and releasing CO2. So are the fish. So you have a net loss of O2 and a net gain of CO2 in the tank. Remember that respiration is passive, it only works properly when the level of the "bad" thing is higher inside the blood and lower in the air/water. You've got the plants releasing a lot of CO2 and the fish doing the same thing.

What eventually happens is the level of CO2 in the water begins to get dangerously close or surpass the level of CO2 in the blood. When this happens there is no CO2 transfer out of the blood and bad things start to happen very quickly. And remember, unlike low O2 levels, you can't relax or breath faster to get the O2, all that does is speed up the process of asphyxiation (ie death). I like to think of it like carbon monoxide poisoning. There are minor differences between the two, but both end with the same result.

So keep those O2 levels up, but more importantly make sure you don't get high CO2 levels when the lights aren't on. You fish will thank you.

HTH
 
A very nice read 7. Nicely explains the gas exchange in water, in plants and in animal lungs.

I just wanted to add a few points so people reading this are not scared to death about adding CO2. While plants do respire like animals, they use far less O2 and give off far less CO2. They do not have muscles to fuel and a digestive system to run. Also plants do use O2 during the day, they respire all the time. They just produce far more than they need so there is a net gain. They take the O2 from the own tissues first before extracting it from the water.

As long as you keep CO2 under 50ppm and have somekind of surface movement. You will have nothing to concern yourself about. Get the levels dialed in and your plants will thrive, your fish will thrive and you will have one less worry. I turn my CO2 off at night, mostly because I am cheap and do not want to waste it. I know people who run it all night long without issue.

The last point is once you are dialed in and set you dont have to worry about the dreaded PH crash and raising Kh and all of that. My KH is less than one and I pump the CO2 in, I have never had a problem with PH or fish deaths.
 
Yeah sorry for all the doom and gloom. People you have to TRY to cause problems with CO2. Mainly, not properly setting up the pressurized system in the first place (draining a CO2 tank in a week! 8O), or having a completely sealed top with a canister filter that doesn't allow for gas exchange.

In most cases though the CO2 level will be below dangerous and the O2 above dangerous. But its good to know the (layman) science behind the process.
 
Well, the CO2 regulator has a solenoid on it that's plugged into the same timer I use for my lights so it should go off and on w/the lights every day. I just got it up and running a few mins ago. I took ph and kh readings beforehand just to be sure and I'll take Ph readings in a couple of hours to see how well everything is working.
 
That's exactly what mine has (need to get a bottle). This helps to prevent the problem, just make sure you have good circulation in the water and contact with air (ie not really tight hood).
 
if not enough it will turn green !!! im color blind and my wife didnt tell me it was green i thought it was cloudy white keep a eye on the bubble counter
 
donk1667 said:
if not enough it will turn green !!! im color blind and my wife didnt tell me it was green i thought it was cloudy white keep a eye on the bubble counter

:D I'm sorry but that is quite funny! :wink: A drop checker with twice the amount of pH indicator would help you easily see the difference. It will be a DARK blue if not enough CO2, when there is enough it will turn a light green. I'm pretty sure you would be able to tell the difference.
 
I'm now very confused. I think I may need a new test kit for either KH or Ph. I've had both of these solutions for a long time now (over a year) and rarely use them. I never jack with my water chemistry out of the tap so I have no real need for them once I know what I'm dealing with. Anyway, the Gh solution was supposed to turn the water blue, but it didn't. The water did eventually turn yellow (as it was supposed to) after 7-8 drops. The ph tested at 7.8 before, but after about 4-5 hours of running the CO2, it appears to have dropped to 6.6 which would mean a CO2 level of 65 ppm. (This was on just two bubbles per second). Strangely enough, none of the fish act stressed and not a single plant is pearling. I don't get it. It seems the readings must be wrong. Anyway, I dialed down the CO2. Are these readings jacked up or is my math wrong or am I doing something else wrong? or not considering something I should be considering? I add nothing more to my water than de-chlorinator.
 
Why need CO2. I find without CO2, my plants are still growing well and I hate to have to prune them frequently.
 
Hulk, it sounds like you do need fresh kits. If the fish were ok then it was not to high. Do not expect pearling right away, that can take time and some times it never happens. Leave a glass of tap water out over night and do a PH and KH on it. Lets see if you have something buffering your tap.
 
Well, I'm still having issues with it. The fish don't seem stressed, but I certainly am. I woke up this morning to the filter spitting huge bubbles out of the intake valve (I have an inline diffuser on the intake valve). I assume for some reason the co2 canister pumped a large ammount of co2 into the intake valve when it turned on??? Is this a plausible solution? It was about the time the tank turned on. Then all the water kept leaking out the bubble counter and I discovered the plastic o-ring that seals it is cracked and broken. Luckily I had teflon tape laying around and that should work.

The ph was 7.0 this morning and testing around 6.0 later on. I discovered my tap water is about 8.5 right out of the tap, but it's much lower than that in my tanks. This is corroborated by the report I found online on from the municipal water dept. The report also states that the calcium hardness of the water is 66 mg/l and the total hardness (as CACO3) is 126 mg/l. I'm not sure how to convert these into readings I can use though. Can anyone help?
 
Sorry for topping an old thread, but I think I finally got it worked out. I need one bubble about every 2-3 seconds. That seems to be the level that works for me. I tried the 2 bubbles per second and it drove my CO2 levels sky high. The rate I've got I've been doing for the last two to three days. It gets me about 30-35 ppm.
 
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