I've Jumped Over the Planted Tank fence!

[Purrbox]

A20: Flourite starts out with nutrients (if I remember right) but is very dusty and needs to be rinsed EXTREMELY well or your aquarium will be cloudy for quite awhile. Laterite is not a substrate, but rather a way of adding nutrients to a substrate like gravel. From what I hear it's rather messy and can cause issues if accidently exposed to the water column. Eco-Complete has nutrients to start but after a year or so would need to be supplemented with root tabs. Turface holds nutrients really well, but does not have them to start.

The mulm created by fish waste etc does add nutrients to the substrate, but that doesn't mean that it will provide all the necessary nutrients. This is why you may find that root tabs are still necessary with heavy root feeders and/or when lightly fertilizing the water column.

A21: You're correct. It's more important to have a substrate that has a high CEC (ability to store and release nutrients) and doesn't negatively impact your water parameters than it is to have one that starts out nutrient rich. Having a nutrient rich substrate to start can be helpful in giving the plants a jump start, but you can achieve the same affect in other ways (adding mulm, dusting of peat moss, prepped dirt, etc).

A22: I've used the Flourish root tabs, and they worked fine. If I were to get more, I'd make my own.

A23: I'd probably put the inline reactor in the line going from the sump back to the aquarium. This way the CO2 goes through the aquarium once before getting gassed off in the sump. If you're willing to put up with the extra expense of more frequent fills, then you can certainly keep the sump. I'd recommend doing some research for ways to minimize the gas off as a result of using a sump. If I remember right there are some simple ways to mod the setup that will help quite a bit.

 

[An t-iasg]

Here's a Milwaukee electrode (the yellow probe) for your controller:

MA 911B/2: Milwaukee Instruments MA911B/2 DOUBLE JUNCTION pH ELECTRODE

I have ordered from this site before and I remembered that they had the probes if I ever needed one.

I don't buffer now since my Eco-Complete substrate is new (I had bettas in 5 gallon tanks and recently set them up in 10 gallon tanks). I'll buffer again when the buffering capacity of the substrate is exhausted. I used Seachem's Alkaline buffer: Alkaline Buffer

I didn't really follow their directions for getting to a specific pH value. I just wanted to raise my KH (my pH rose too, but that didn't really matter as long as the KH was where I wanted it - I was thinking of that CO2 chart so I wanted to achieve a desired KH). I used 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons and added it during a water change once a week. I let it dissolve in a cup of tank water first and then added it near the filter output.

 

[pitt420dude]

I fear that everyone helping me has entered a never ending cycle. Each answer spawns another question. Thank you again.

Q24: How do you make your own fert tabs?

Thats good news about the sump, as I really like it (b/c it makes pwc's a lot easeir than pouring buckets in the top). I also really like the extra water movement and filtration, it's also super easy to clean. I know I really need a python and even more so if I plan on using the EI dosing method. I think I should as a newb.

I've heard and suspect that having a cycled, tank full of ben. bact. and a full bioload should help. I'm thinking of taking out half of my gravel. I don't have a thick layer at all, it's probably only 1.5-2" so I may leave it all. Q25:I know it's a judgment call but what are your opinions about mixing my gravel (inert spectra river grav) in w/ my new substrate (whatever it is) to comprise 1/4 to 1/2 of my substrate? I've heard that if doing that, it's better to lay down your plant substrate and layer the gravel on top of it. I may just end up getting something cheaper and supplementing at first with mulm (plenty in the filter material the water pours down over in the sump I could just sprinkle over the substrate). My fish would probably be thinking "What the heck is he doing? Before he was buggin us and moving my house around to get this stuff out of here, and now he is showering it down upon us? Make up your mind already!"

I want to have at least a 3" base in the front and scape it to 6 or even 8" in the back. This should give me some more room to work with.

 

[Purrbox]

A24: These are the instructions that I'd be using. You'll find at the bottom that they are using a 50/50 mix of PMDD and powdered art clay. You could use a PMDD recipe or you could make your own recipe based on the needs of your plants. Say they are showing mostly Potassium and Trace deficiencies, you could mix those and the mix them in the 50/50 ratio with the powdered art clay. You don't need the fancy tools in their instruction, you can form the balls with you hands and insert them by hand as well.
A25: I'd still urge you to go with 100% Turface. Just leave most of the mulm (this is the stuff that collects in your substrate) in the bottom of the aquarium when removing the gravel and you'll have a good start for the Turface nutrient wise. Layer the Turface on top. You'll probably be able to do the entire aquarium with a single bag. I doubt you'll have any problems with a mini cycle, just keep an eye on the parameters for a few days after the substrate change in case you need to do water changes for a few days.

 

[pitt420dude]

Thanks alot purrbox. For now I'll stick with Flourish's root tabs. They're not that expensive and I've got a lot on my hands at the moment.

I GOT MY LIGHTS!!! Yep, all 216 watts of em. There is one thing I was wondering about: Q26: This uses teh same amount of electricity as 4 regular incandescant 54w light bulbs would right? It's just that they're flourescent (a much more efficient source) right?

BTW, the lunar lights ROCK!! I underestimated how nice this would make the tank look. Unless you're looking from the back, you can't see the lights at all and they just give everything a pale whitish/blue tint.

Monday I'll assemble my CO2 system (so long as the regulator/solenoid/controller/bubblecounter) get here. I'm gonna stick with 1bps until I get my drop checker. The tank has gone through so many changes lately (coral removal, lighting change, massive plant addition) that I doubt Gadd's chart is very accurate.

I still have yet to get a substrate, but have learned alot and am narrowing it down to either turface or eco-coomplete. Q27: W/ the substrates that don't come nutrient filled (Q28: Which is anything other than eco complete right?) should I put down a layer of peat as R. Griggs suggests, or will mulm be fine?

Q28: How do you suggest I handle my tank in the interim? I won't get the other ferts for a week (the hard stuff, I have big al's comprehensive which is:

Soluable Potash (K20) 3%
Copper (Cu) (Min) .00001
Iron (Fe) (Min) .24%
.24% chelated iron
Manganese (Mn) (Min) .01%
Molybdemum. (Mo) (Min) .0009%
Zinc (Zn) (Min) .00014%
Kelp Extract and Vit. B added.

I only run 2 bulbs (108 w) for 10 hours. Well i try to but sometimes it is fun to just BLAST EM WITH THE BLINDING LIGHT! They're so bright it's ridiculous. I (stupidly) looked right at the bulbs and saw pink dots for like 2 minutes afterwards. It's like turning on a million blinding brilliant white incendiary lights. Ships could find their way to my house with no problem. lol. I'm hesistant to even run w/ only 2 bulbs b/c I don't want algea but I don't want the plants to die.

My test kits, root tabs, reg/controller combo, are all on the way. I'm gonna order a drop checker today and ferts today. I hopefully will be able to pick up my substrate and CO2 tomorrow.

Oh one more thing; Q29: Will Grigg's combo back give me everything I need? B/c it seemed like there was some stuff not included that the plants need. IF I order from Planted Aquarium Fertilizer, what would you suggest I get?

 

[Purrbox]

A27: You can just use mulm, just use peat, or use both. The peat is a great option for those that are setting up their first aquarium and don't have any access to mulm to get things started.
A28a: There are other substrates that have nutrients. Flourite and AquaSoil are a couple that I can remember off hand.
A28b: I'd dose according the the bottle instructions and run just two of the light bulbs as you've proposed.
A29: Everything that you'll definately need is in Rex Griggs Combo Pack (those are the only ferts I've ended up needing since I started my planted aquariums, with the exception of Flourish Excel which I use as a carbon source in my non CO2 injected Pico). If you decide to order from the other store, then you would want the same ferts.

 

[pitt420dude]

I'm having a hard time deciding on a substrate. I really like the look of eco-complete and onyx sand but hate the price. I want to have a decent slope so will need lots of substrate, and I don't feel like paying 20-25 bucks for a 20 lb bag.

Is turface very dark? On their webpage it looks light, but I'm sure it's darker when it's wet. I really want a black substrate.

What would you choose b/w onyx sand or eco-complete. Their roughly the same price at my LFS.

It also really sucks that there are not a whole lot of options for me. I can't rightly order and pay 30+ for shipping. Petco/smart carries nothing. My LFS only has flourite, onyx sand, and eco complete. Does flourite get darker in the tank b/c it looks brown? I already ordered fert tabs if that influences your advice at all.

Also I'm having a hard time finding a good timer/power strip. I couldnt find any on walmart or target's website, and kmart didnt have any. Home depot had one for $20 but it wasn't what I had in mind. Suggestions?

EDIT: Your not going to beleive this, but I tracked down the only Turface dealer in all of Pittsburgh, and they're literally 3 blocks from my house. A 2 minute drive. Think thats a sign?

 

[Purrbox]

Turface MVP is a nearly identical match to the Onyx Sand as far as color goes. I'm using it in both my 10 gallon and 2.5 gallon if you want to see pictures. It's not quite black when wet.

 

[pitt420dude]

You have some really nice tanks pb, they're so lush. The onyx sand, that is jet black right? This is the color I'm going for, sort of the same color as mvp. Is this (the black onyx sand) what you were referencing when you said it was a similar color, because it looks much lighter in your pics (maybe b/c it's so brightly lit?).

My fiance really likes the look of brown better. I'm primarily concerned with a low price and good CEC. Black onyx sand is much finer, which I like in addition to its jet-black color. Is Turface easy to plant in? Would it hold the roots of foreground plants like riccia and glosso well? How much should I expect ot pay for it?

 

[ingg]

You can't slope Turface. If that is important, find something else..

Want a slope that will hold? Go to 3m.com, search colorquartz. click find vendor. Find a vendor in your area, and get a bag of 3M's T grade sand. It comes in several colors (I have always used only the black, jet black and really pretty).

Under 30 bucks for a 50 pound bag. Mix in a bag or two of flourite sand for some initial nutrients - which matches color, btw - and you are good to go, holds slopes great.

That is the setup I did in my 75g.

I didn't rinse the new flourite black at all, btw, and almost no clouds at all, clear in 24 hours - the new stuff is a lot cleaner to work with than the old stuff. Just fill slowly and use a plate or plastic bag or something to avoid shooting water into the substrate in a jet and intentionally creating clouds, and it should be fine.

 

[pitt420dude]

Thanks for the tip Ingg, but there aren't any places I can get colorquartz that would be even remotely close to me, and shipping would make it cost more than it would be worth.

Why can't turface be sloped? Is it because the grain size is too big and it will just level out? Would onyx sand be better? would mixing onyx sand w/ turface be better for sloping? Maybe like 20 lbs of sand w/ 50 lbs of turface? Would leaving some of my coated pea gravel (spectra stone I think) piled up high in the back help out w/ sloping issues, or would you too suggest removing all of the gravel completely?

I thought lighting would be the most complicated thing to nail down, but the substrate issue is giving me more headache than I thought it would. It's so pricey and not being able to use online shopping is a drag.

Basically my order of priorities go:

1. I want to be able to grow all plants well (inlcluding riccia). So a good CEC is a must.
2. I want it to be able to be sloped. nothing crazy but a nice slope from front to back.
3. I'd like it to be jet-black.
4. I'd like to be able to avoid spending $100+ on a substrate.

 

[Purrbox]

Is Turface easy to plant in? Would it hold the roots of foreground plants like riccia and glosso well? How much should I expect ot pay for it?

Riccia does not root so the substrate will not make a difference if you are using it. It has to be fastened to rocks or other objects to keep it submerged.

Fine rooted plants like HC (smaller than glosso) will root in Turface, but it takes longer than finer substrates. You might want to look at Turface Pro League (finer grain) instead of Turface MVP if this is going to be an issue. You'll probably find that Flourite and Onyx sand are also too large grained, sine they are the same grain size as Turface MVP. Other options for a fine substrate that's extra nice for foreground carpets include Eco-Complete, Aqua Soil, and Pool Filter Sand.

Turface MVP was about $10 for a 50lb bag when I bought it a year or two ago.

 

[Purrbox]

2. I want it to be able to be sloped. nothing crazy but a nice slope from front to back.

I've found that most of the substrates I've used over time will slowly level out with uprooting, planting, replanting, and water changes. Since it sounds really important to you to keep the substrate sloped, you may want to look into building terraces. You could use rocks, driftwood, or even plexiglass to acheive the desired effect.

 

[pitt420dude]

Allright, you all have gone long enough without pics.

This was what I started with. What do you think? Think I'll be able to have a nicer tank going planted? You can tell that at that point I had not yet learned you can't use a flash. Also notice the one, half actinic 65w light. The only plants were low lights (anubias and java).

These are big beautiful plants that HG sent me, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!

I was super happy to get them!

This is basically the current left side, I took out the fake blue coral and put in a java fern windelov.

This is the middle, now there is no coral whatsoever.

Blinded by the light!

They fit better than my old lights. I ran em for a while at half power with my hood on, and checked VERY frequently. It never really got any hotter than my old lights. Just warm to the touch, so it's nice to know I can at least display my tank with the hood and 2 bulbs running. Usually the hood is off, especially lately.

Full shot, with lower part of hood, as it is now (with a java fern windelov where the "which-one-of-these-is-not-like-the-other" peice of fake blue coral is). I was looking at my tank and was like "What the heck is that still doing in there?" I wanted to give the loaches thier house but eh, I'm the decisionmaker not them so now they just get to nibble on lots of plants in the bright light (where I can see em) instead.


Oooooohhhh...what do we have here?

Thanks CM!!!

Remember when I told you I was indecisive in my first thread titled "On the planted tank fence"?? Well now I STILL can't decide on a substrate, I think I know a lot about most of them, but I just can't choose. I'm between TurfaceMVP (or Pro-league), onyx sand, eco-complete, black flourite (if i can find it). So obviously I like the black and darker ones.

Oh and I think I may have figured something out to help with sloping, but may be mistaken, There was a 5 foot 3.5" diameter piece of white PVC in my garage, which I have permission to do with as I please. SO I was thinking of cutting it into two pieces, one 3' piece and one 2' piece. (With me so far?) This next part might be hard to put into words:

What I was thinking of doing is siliconing them together w/ the 2' piece centered on the 3' piece, and then center them in the middle of the bottom of the tank, with the 2' piece leaning up against the back of the tank. I would put my current (biological and mulm rich, but inert) substrate behind them (under the 2' piece and behind the 3' piece) to prop it up. I'd put some more gravel over and around them to sort of achor it, and then just pour whatever I go with (turface maybe) all over the top so there would be a sloped mound in place. The substrate underneath, with the crevace/valley of where the two pieces are silconed should sort of anchor the upper substrate dont you think? SHould I perforate the PVC or something to allow water flow? Would it even matter since it's buried? I'm worried about stagnant pockets. Do you think this would hold or do you think this too would slide foward/down?

How about just cutting one foot off, and placing the entire 4' tube across the tank, and backfill the rear w/ my existing gravel, and then pour the new stuff all over everything to make a super-deep back terrace the length of the tank and a 2-3" substrate in the front half.

I'm really looking for either a terrace or a significant slope, and I want something that will last and endure time/tinkering/replanting etc. I worry that with this latter setup (one step across the length of the tank), the pressure of the gravel behind the PVC would push it forward into/over the shallower substrate. Oooh, how about a make a few wedge shaped giant fert tabs, and use em to anchor the PVC like a wedge brake stops a tire from rolling downhill? I'm sort of half, joking here, maybe I/we could think of something inert that could hold these pipes in place if gravel alone isn't enough.

 

[Purrbox]

Looks like a great start, but you need more plants! Oh and more driftwood too!

 

[pitt420dude]

Yeah I need some red plants and I called Rich at Manzanita Burlworks - The Source for Quality Handcrafted Manzanita Products but he didn't get back to me yet.

I have a question, well a couple actually. In my album you can see a pic of my sump. Basically there is a skimmer in my tank, and that syphons into an overflow I have hanging on the rear, which flows down through a green cylindrical mesh filter that is wrapped around a perforated tube of pvc. Then it flowss down into a sort of canister thing w. filter material I have sitting in my sump tank. Then it gets pumped back into a tank using a powerhead just sitting in the bottom of the sump. I really don't know where to hook up the reactor.

From the pic you can see the downspout is not a normal clear acrylic (or vinyl?) tube. It is the one coming in from the right. It's more like a pool filter hose. The tube going from the power head in the sump to the spraybar in the tank is on the left and is normal aquatic tubing, so can I just hook it up to that? I guess it's better to have the bubbles fight the flow of the water (aka, have it plumbed into the downspout) than rise with it (aka have it plumbed into the up spout), but maybe it doesnt matter?

 

[Purrbox]

Considering how badly the skimmer and sump are going to gas off the CO2, I'd definately go with the clear vinyl tubing heading from the sump to the spraybar. The spraybar may actually end up doing a fair job of breaking up the bubbles into a mist.

 

[pitt420dude]

The spraybar doesn't really mist, the power head pumps it into a sort of piece of plastic shaped like a T, which has three bic-pen-sized holes on each side. IS this called a spray bar?

How about if I cut off the bottom third to one half of the canister thing (it's not really a filter like a fluval, but it is a rectangular piece of plastic holding filter material, you can see it in the pic), so that when the water flows over the filter material, it is already submersed? Basically I would just submerse the entire canister thing. The reactor would be placed after the skimmer/overflowHOB, but before it reaches the sump. If the CO2 infused water flowing into the sump is already submersed when it goes over the filter material, it would be slightly less effective at filtering but would all but eliminate offgassing right? This way, I could have the bubbles (which rise) fighting the flow of the water (which falls) for more efficient diffusiton right? THis would be better than having the bubbles rise w/ the water rising right? Am I missing something?

I'd have to change out the pool filter hose (is that what it is called?) and use regular aquarium tubing but that shouldn't be too hard.

Turface MVP is a nearly identical match to the Onyx Sand as far as color goes. I'm using it in both my 10 gallon and 2.5 gallon if you want to see pictures. It's not quite black when wet.

I picked up a 50 lbs. bag of Turface today for $11.80; does it come in different colors? I ask b/c I thought PB said it was black or off-black (close to the color of black onyx sand). Were you talking about black onyx sand (is there any other color of onyx sand?). The bag I got is not black at all, it's brown, and the guy said it only comes in brown and red. Does it turn black when it gets wet? Did I buy the wrong color?

 

[Purrbox]

As long as the modifications that you are planning to make would result in minimizing the surface agitation, then it would also minimize the CO2 outgasing. Having the CO2 bubbles fight the flow is a very efficient method of forcing the CO2 to dissolve, however breaking up the CO2 into a fine mist that is sprayed throughout the aquarium is also a very efficient method of getting the CO2 to the plants.

I picked up a 50 lbs. bag of Turface today for $11.80; does it come in different colors? I ask b/c I thought PB said it was black or off-black (close to the color of black onyx sand). Were you talking about black onyx sand (is there any other color of onyx sand?). The bag I got is not black at all, it's brown, and the guy said it only comes in brown and red. Does it turn black when it gets wet? Did I buy the wrong color?

Last I checked Turface MVP only comes in a dark charcoal grey (light grey when dry and nearly black when wet) but Turface Proleague comes in a variety of colors including those mentioned. My guess is that you bought Proleague instead of MVP and that store only carries the two colors. Onyx Sand only comes in the one color but Flourite does come in Red, Brown, and Black.

 

[pitt420dude]

I definitely got MVP, I think I just jumped the gun and will have to wait to see it wet. They had little display samples that looked greyish brown, but I bet it gets much darker wet.

More on my sump:
If I lay the canister on it's side to avoid cutting it, I can have the downflow release into the far left of the sump under the surface of the water, and the pump on the far right, creating a somewhat strong L to R flow throughout the entire sump, and through the cannister and filter media. I think this will work really well actually and is a good compromise to keep teh filter/bacteria/water movement but avoid off gassing. THoughts?

EDIT: HUGE disappointment. I just got off the phone with the turface manufacturer (Profile) and THEY DISCONTINUED THE MVP IN GREY(/Black in our tanks)!!!! Ugh, only tan now. I thought it looked WAY too light to turn black in the tank. THis really sucks.

I doubt I'll return the bag, as I can use it for potting soil, now the only question is whether to go with Proleague, which they DO still make in grey. It is a smaller grain (good or bad?). Is it basically the same product, same CEC, same price? Obviously the color availability is one HUGE difference between MVP and proleague. Can I use proleague? What are the pros and cons of it over MVP?

Sadness.

Any info on my sump configuration and use of pro-league would be greatly appreceiated.