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Old 03-16-2007, 06:25 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzard~Of~Ozz
Tom,
The mention of deficiencies are put in for description, if you look at the picture by dapellegrini, then read the descriptions for Ca def. and K lockup (correct or not), they match perfectly.
Does not mean that it causes anything.
Just that there is a relationship/correlation.
That's all it says.
But you can make the hypothesis and then test for it.
A hypothesis needs to be testable and falsifiable.

Quote:
TMG? Tropica Master Grow I presume? My Co2 levels are high, and oddly enough, TMG was one of the things that was discussed at the LFS. (Over Seachem).. I might just have to give it a shot regardless.
I do not think that's the issue personally, but it rules out one other potential issues and will lend itself towards making things easier in the harder water tanks.

If I have high CO2, light, over dose K+, low on Ca, and ideal system for showing if this is true or not, then pick and sensitive plant, say Ammannia, then that should skew all the potential towards the expression of this stunting of growth correct?

I did it twice carefully and never saw any effect.
Folks have dosed excess K+ for many years without issues, suddenly a few folks, I think it was Ghori who insisted it was possible cause based on an endogenous signaling by Ca++ inside cells, as opposed to external fertilization, a reference comparison that is radically different between the situations.

Regular internal endogenous pathways are far different than the external environment. Such references are non supporting of his claim.

If I was limiting say K+ to some degree prior, and I add more, the the upregulation of CO2 demand will increase.

You can measure this at the gene and transcript level even.
A plant will down regulate CO2 demand to match the most limiting nutrient. This is very clear with respect to P, N and Carbon.

It might be CO2, it might be K+, etc.

None of these folks have accounted for the other causes.
They went directly to their conclusions, then went looking for evidence to support that conclusion.

Then the support was wrong on top of that to boot.

I tested their hypothesis, detailed the method and rational, they did not.

Big difference.

Then I act crotchety and ream them good for not doing the work themselves and still wanting to argue with me about it.

If you do the work and show that it's not, they need to prove me wrong and detail out the methods/rational and do the work themselves.

But few do, they are too lazy to test their own hypothesis, are unwilling to address their assumptions, and lack the control to begin with. Hey, some folks are not into it as much, nothing wrong with that, but do not come down on me because you are not willing to do the work and are still speculating rather than trying to see what test you can do to see if the hypothesis is falsifiable or not.

That's what makes me different and why I can figure out more relationships and get them right consistently.

If you have enough control to grow the plant fine, then add the substance/treatment that they claim causes the effect, and you get no effect, then you can safely say that it's not the cause.

Note: this does not say what that cause might be, just that it cannot be this reason.

So you do this again and again till you are left with a few possible candidates or one etc.
Yes....this takes work and labor.

It's not just this issue, it's the same with PO4, NO3, CO2, tap waters, hard vs soft, sediments, water column, toxicity, algae of most every sort.

Every one said excess PO4 causes algae in planted tanks(some clowns still do), I added PO4, I had no algae bloom and excellent plant growth. The process and logic are the same here. But I used a tank that was in great shape and had no algae to start with.

The same must be done here.
The healthy plant/tank etc is the standard and control, not some loused up plant/tank full of algae etc.

Everyone makes mistakes but some realize that to start with and try to account for them. Then at least they are further along than the person who has not. You learn by doing and making mistakes, if all you do is sit and speculate and never test, then you learn far less.

Same deal with aquascaping. You learn by doing, not sitting there thinking and typing.

Regards,
Tom Barr
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:48 PM   #22
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Ok, I believe you about it being a CO2 problem. I know a month or so ago I missed a weekly bottle change on my 40gal (I change 1/2 of them every week). From that I got some slightly stunted growth on some rotala and L. repens. Right now DIY is all I have though.

BTW, it's no wonder this plant is endangered in the wild if it's so #$*@ demanding!
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Old 03-16-2007, 11:48 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peyton
Ok, I believe you about it being a CO2 problem. I know a month or so ago I missed a weekly bottle change on my 40gal (I change 1/2 of them every week). From that I got some slightly stunted growth on some rotala and L. repens. Right now DIY is all I have though.

BTW, it's no wonder this plant is endangered in the wild if it's so #$*@ demanding!
I know it is frustrating and you want to believe one of these things etc will fix it. When you have issues, you also lose patience. I did and it sent me on the war path to figure out the issue I was having.

I think most are this way.
I started looking at my own approach as the method to address questions rather than doing these suggestions that where typically written.

Mainly because they where wrong and I knew they wrong.

This plant is easy to grow actually.
Give it plenty of CO2/NO3/PO4/traces etc and stable tank, it'll grow quite well.

We have used pure RO and ADA AS and have good results also, so high Ca++ is not required and that was with GH booster(has a fair amount of K2SO4) as well as K from KNO3 and little from KH2PO4.

In flourite or plain sand, the color is excellent. Plain sand worked very well, some of the darkest red color. So it's not picky whether from the substrate or the water column, in general, both places is best.
GH about 5-10, high CO2, good light, good trace dosing, careful topping/pruning with sharp scissors, replant the stems, ample room so other plants do not shade it too much, KNO3/PO4 etc............

It is not that picky, Eustralis, Tonia, Erio's, L pantanal, HC, R wallichii, R macrandra seem to give folks more issues, but they are fairly easy to grow and do so like weeds after a 1-2 week break in peroid.
Same with this plant.

You can test and few things like directing the CO2 output directly into the plant of interest. Or blast the CO2 mist directly at the plant. You know it's not CO2 limited in that case. Then the rest is just dosing which is straight forward.

Give it some time, maybe a week or so and see if the plant responds. It's not the faster grower, but it's fairly steady and does pretty good when happy.

The stem can melt if you are not careful replanting, be gentle, do not move often.



Regards,
Tom Barr
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Old 03-17-2007, 12:57 AM   #24
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Hey Peyton, My L. glandulosa is growing in around 40 ppm C02, last time I checked. Using pressurized C02 diffused through a Fluval 305 cannister filter, 2 bubbles per second.
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Old 03-29-2007, 03:36 PM   #25
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Just an update. I have changed to a strict EI dosing plan for 20-40gal tanks adding all ferts dry into the tank. Also I added another DIY co2 bottle to the mix. So far the leaves are coming in pretty straight though they are more pink than the wine color I'm used to.

My co2 levels have not been where I would expect with the addition of another bottle. I have seen very little change in the PH. I assume my reactor is not doing it's job. I am switching to the mist method today to see if I can get even better results.
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