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Old 03-15-2007, 09:11 AM   #1
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L. glandulosa and hard water.

Anyone here grow this plant with hard water? If so have you ever experianced what appeared to be a calcium deficiency? I'm trying to solve this problem as I've had this plant for months and it has had what seemed to be a Ca deficiency. I have been adding 1/8tsp CaSO4 once a week with no results. I also have been adding 1 tsp MgSO4.

I have looked on other boards such as APC, Plantgeek, etc and found others with the same problem. I've read so many posts by Tom Barr and others that my eyes are gonna bleed. Some report that dosing Ca helped their situation but so far it hasn't done much for me (maybe I'm not dosing enough Ca?). The other day I increased the dose to 1/4tsp and thought there was slightly less curling of the leaves but by the end of the day the plant look as bad as ever. Just curious if anyone here has had this problem with this or any other plant and how did you solve it?
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Old 03-15-2007, 09:26 AM   #2
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I haven't had any luck growin it in my hard water either. I'm about ready to just take it out and trash it.

Sorry, no suggestions, just wanted to let you know that I feel your pain.
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Old 03-15-2007, 10:01 AM   #3
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Does it appear to have a Ca deficiency? Curling leaves and stunted growth?
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Old 03-15-2007, 11:23 AM   #4
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I had the same problems with this plant in hard water. Curling leaves, stunted growth, etc. In the end I decided it wasn't worth the hassle and got rid of it. I also started dosing Ca and Mg to try and solve the problem. Seemed to help a bit, but it drove my gH way over 240ppm (highest on my test kit) and the plant seemed to go through phases, happy, sad, happy, sad...

I have now setup a 3g nano with RO/DI water so I can play with some of these fussy species a little more.
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Old 03-15-2007, 05:02 PM   #5
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I have some of your L. glandulosa growing in very soft water and all is great. My GH and KH are 3 or less. Maybe it has more to do with having hard water vs soft?

I know there are many species that will not grow well in hard water.
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Old 03-15-2007, 06:44 PM   #6
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Ok, well, that answers that.. I thought it was only me.. It appears that Ludwiga Arcuata and Glandulosa don't like my water, it does look just like a calcium deficiency (I was about to start dosing, but my GH is 9-10deg.) I wonder if it isn't something else tho, GlenC seems to grow it well and he has liquid rock for water.. I was worried it was Potassium lockup..
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Old 03-15-2007, 08:27 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkilling1
Maybe it has more to do with having hard water vs soft?

I know there are many species that will not grow well in hard water.
Thats what I was thinking but still why would it show a deficiency of something that is (presumbably) in abundance? I wonder if everyone doses Ca and Mg together when they see this problem? Has anyone tried only Ca?

What kind of substrate are you all using also? I found more than one person with this problem using Eco-complete.
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Old 03-15-2007, 08:48 PM   #8
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When I had mine it was in Flourite. I used the Bar GH Booster to add Ca Mg...
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Old 03-15-2007, 09:34 PM   #9
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Mine is in Turface (comparable to Flourite) And it shows this "deficiency". I haven't tried dosing Ca. as I'm happy with most of the other plants growth. In trying to help it out, thinking it was K Locked, I did a 40% PWC and didn't dose K. Within 1 day I noticed the other plants starting to go translucent (Fast growing Ech. Quad. was hardest hit) so I dosed up the K and I'll leave it as the plant that just won't be happy in my tank.

I'm glad this was brought up tho, I kept meaning to ask but never remembered.
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Old 03-15-2007, 10:15 PM   #10
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I have read where some think that it could be a problem of a ratio between Mg and Ca. Others, such as Tom Barr disagree.

Here is a post I ran across in my search. Maybe someone more knowledgable than me can understand better.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ge...trouble-2.html

From what I gather Tom blamed CO2 in this instance.
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Old 03-15-2007, 10:37 PM   #11
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My (Your old) L. glandulosa is growing in plan old PFS. I am growing it along side Tonina sp. 'Belem', which requires very soft water. I have had my CO2 up to 100 PPM for months, NO3's up to 80, and PO4's up to 40 PPM, and none of this seemed to have any effect on it. It does have a rather large root system.

Quote:
From what I gather Tom blamed CO2 in this instance.
For the most part, but he does say that he has only seen this happen from either low CO2 or low NO3's.
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Old 03-15-2007, 10:39 PM   #12
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Too far gone for me to verify that my CO2 was perfect, but Tom does tend to blame most things on CO2... He knows a lot more about this stuff than me though, so who am I to say I think it might just be my liquid-rock-water...
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Old 03-15-2007, 11:05 PM   #13
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Hey guys,
I have L. glandulosa growing in both Eco-complete and Turface. As Wizard mentioned, my water is liquid rock. Plant grows pretty good for me, gets a nice deep wine red. Only complaint is the bottom leaves eventually drop off and make a mess of my tanks. Usually end up with a beautiful wine red top half and a bare skinny bottom. Top and re-plant! So far it's been worth the effort.
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Old 03-16-2007, 12:10 AM   #14
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Well as I am looking through my older photos, I noticed that my A. reineckii also got some weird warped leaves around the same time my l. glandulosa did... I kept the A. reineckii and it got better... Maybe I should have held onto the l. glandulosa... I was still just learning about how to balance out ferts and CO2 at the time, so who knows what might have been my problem.

Here is a poor pic of what mine was doing before I finally got rid of it:

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Old 03-16-2007, 02:45 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzard~Of~Ozz
Ok, well, that answers that.. I thought it was only me.. It appears that Ludwiga Arcuata and Glandulosa don't like my water, it does look just like a calcium deficiency (I was about to start dosing, but my GH is 9-10deg.) I wonder if it isn't something else tho, GlenC seems to grow it well and he has liquid rock for water.. I was worried it was Potassium lockup..
I have blood red beautiful examples of both in my old tap that had a GH of 24, and a KH of 11.

Liquid tasty rock.

It's not Ca.
Everyone thinks everything looks like Ca deficiency.
I've yet to seen a verified case of of Ca deficiency in anyone's tank with an submersed aquatic.

Potassium lock up? Jesse, you folks are reviving dead post that folks made claims and said I was wrong, I tested and showed that it could not be due to either.

Funny, they no longer suggest that today and have been very quiet after a mob phase of "me too's" went rampant.

Of course not one of them tested a negative control to try and induce an otherwise healthy plant to start with.

If you cannot grow a healthy plant for comparison, then you cannot do the control for the test!!!!!

So these folks are running around making their correlations and claims with not one shred of proof, but I'm a bad guy for not letting them try and push that garbage down everyone else's throats, I'm not open minded etc...........

Instead of talking and speculating, they should go try and test and prove this stuff.

I know because I have tested against a healthy plant, adding the high levels of K or low vs high of Ca, and that gives me 1001 times more certainly than they have.

It's not a hard test to prove something does not cause some effect on a plant,..............but what might cause something is much tougher to prove.

Still, ruling out things and addressing the assumptions we make helps.
When that's not done and folks claim that it's this cause, I will question that.

Otherwise we get folks that claim PO4 cause algae, of Fe etc, must have RO water, heating cables, burn two chicken feet every Friday while chanting "Ojjjssa"........... etc

Then some newbie reads it and thinks its right.
General CO2 and traces are more issues with folks with the harder tap.
TMG works better than most other brands for the hard water, the CO2: add more.

Dig the burnt, then later petrified Sequoia from Mt St Helena, CA.
L arcuata and dwarf lobelia.


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Old 03-16-2007, 05:35 AM   #16
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I was hoping you would chime in Tom, thank you. So you recommend more traces and switch to TMG along with an increase in CO2? To be honest I'd be half affraid of hooking up another 2l as the PH would more than likely fall below 6.0 . I am thinking about going to pressurized when I can afford it but for now I am stuck with DIY.

Also what is it about hard water that makes it more difficult to grow this plant?

I have more questions but I'm gonna be late for work now as it is.
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Old 03-16-2007, 06:55 AM   #17
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Tom,
The mention of deficiencies are put in for description, if you look at the picture by dapellegrini, then read the descriptions for Ca def. and K lockup (correct or not), they match perfectly.

TMG? Tropica Master Grow I presume? My Co2 levels are high, and oddly enough, TMG was one of the things that was discussed at the LFS. (Over Seachem).. I might just have to give it a shot regardless.
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Old 03-16-2007, 11:48 AM   #18
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You can get TMG (now called Tropica Plant Nutrition) at Big Al's:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS...ionliquid500ml

http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS...onliquid5liter

Also, I mentioned that my A. Reineckii did the same thing but recovered... I should clarify that the head that got all warped never straightened out, it just grew enough healthy off shoots and I eventually threw the mangled part away. That to say, I am not sure you can recover the portion of the plant that has gone twisted.

Tom - It is difficult for a weekend/evening hobbyist to find the time and resources to setup and manage controlled environment experiments to determine what is happening and why. Thus all of the hearsay and leaning on folks like you, who can speak with a good amount of experience and critical thinking. It is often easier to burn a few chicken feet until you find something that works. LOL
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Old 03-16-2007, 02:54 PM   #19
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Ok, back from work. Glenc, I wanted to ask what ppm of CO2 are you growing yours in?
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:53 PM   #20
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Quote:
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I was hoping you would chime in Tom, thank you. So you recommend more traces and switch to TMG along with an increase in CO2? To be honest I'd be half affraid of hooking up another 2l as the PH would more than likely fall below 6.0 . I am thinking about going to pressurized when I can afford it but for now I am stuck with DIY.

Also what is it about hard water that makes it more difficult to grow this plant?

I have more questions but I'm gonna be late for work now as it is.
Well right there says it all, DIY CO2.

Your issue is obviously not K, nor Ca.
Think about how important Carbon is to say new growth..........

Suppose that supply was not steady when the plant needed it most?
How do you think the plant would respond?

Look at that pic.
See how the leaves go from nice and large to progressively smaller?

That's not Ca, that's clearly CO2 related.

Some plants are pickier about CO2 than others, some are able to nab the CO2 more than say another species.

So some species act squirrley and the other seem fine.
Java fern can act like this plant but expresses it differently.
Hygros will get holes in the leaves.

Each species has their own traits but progressively smaller new growth is a good sign of low CO2 in many species.

Folks should use less lighting and address CO2 before implicating nutrients.

Ruling out nutrients, whether too much or too little is very easy to do a test on. From there, once you know that range, then you address CO2 and see the effects lighting have on uptake etc.

Then it's easy to figure out what is going on.
I know this, many newbies and even folks with a few years in simply do not get it.

They see correlation and think it's a direct causal relationship.

If I reduce the CO2, would you expect the PO4 uptake to go up or down? NO3? K+? NH4+? Ca++?

How about if I reduced the light?

You can measure this and see these effects(provided you can calibrate a test kit etc and use standard methods).

Regards,
Tom Barr
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