Need info on plant nutrients

[PrettyFishies]

I have narrowed down my list of plants for my 20 g H tank starting up this weekend.... I have researched all of the light, ph and water requirements...all I need to know is what additives I'll need for these babys. I have a 65W 6700K light, an Eheim canisiter filter, flourish, flourish excel and the Hagen natural Co2 system - what I need to know is which species require nutrients such as iron, potassium etc.

glassostigma elatinoides
Anubias barteri var. nana
Nymphoides aquatica

riccia fluitans
Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata (''Cuba'')
Micranthemum umbrosum
Nymphaea lotus (zenkeri)

ludwigia repens
Rotala macrandra
Rotala rotundifolia
Camobma Caroliniana
Ceratophyllum demersum
Vallisneria americana var. biwaensis
Rotala sp. ''Nanjenshan'' (''Mayaca sellowiana'')


Thanks for your input!

 

[czcz]

All plants need NPK and traces, all covered in the fertilization sticky, and you will likely need a very good dosing schedule to grow your more demanding plants while limiting algae. There are many good threads here. Yours ia good group of plants with varying difficulty and growth rates. Glosso and riccia can be good nutrient indicators since they grow so quickly, and the former will take off with good fe dosing ime. L. "Cuba" and R. macrandra only look good with very high CO2. I've not grown R. "Nanjenshan" (and did not realize it may be M. selloriana), but believe it to be a picky plant.

The rest of your list are relatively easy to grow and undemanding. R. rotundifolia and L. repens are excellent plants to learn to trim with and will show better color as you learn nutes. I would personally ditch the hornwort because it will likely be higher maintenence than needed and you already have fast growers, but it may be useful during tank start-up to soak up ammonia. I would try to get the umbrella effect of the Lotus and Bannana plants by growing Wisteria low, since it doubles as a very good Fe indicator and is a more attractive fast grower than Hornwort, but thats just me and I can't aquascape.

Hagen + Excel is good, but better would be Hagen + another DIY canister + Excel. IME 2Ls of the standard yeast+sugar mix is needed for every 10gals, assuming an excellent diffusor (I do not consider the Hagen ladder excellent). I think you will do well once you spend some time reading about fertilization and look at some dosing schedules on this forum. After start-up with healthy plants and good research, there is usually a honeymoon period where nutrients can get out of whack without ill-effect, since the plants can draw on reserves and algae has yet to take hold, and it would be wise to experiment with the set-up to get stability with nutes and CO2 during this period. Once its over, you'll likely find the learning curve at least as steep as expected.

HTH

 

[PrettyFishies]

How high is HIGH Co2?

What is/are "nutes"?

The hornwort is the Cabomba, right?

What are the limits of the Hagen?

What about supplementing it with Carbonator?

 

[czcz]

30ppm. With DIY/yeast, better to keep nominal levels above 30ppm (yeast is unstable byits nature.)

Nutrients/nutes. Sorry.

Ceratophyllum demersum. I've not grown Cambomba, but think it can be pretty. Prettier than hornwort.

Hagen at peak output on a 10gal gets me around 15-20 ppm CO2. Multiple bottles on a staggered schedule helps lower the difference between peaks and lows, and allows high CO2 concentrations. A powered diffusor is much more efficient than a ladder diffusor, allowing you to use all of the yeast output.

I've no idea what the Carbonator is.

 

[Purrbox]

Ideally CO2 should be between 30 - 35ppm.

I believe that "nutes" is short for nutrients.

Hornwort and Cabomba look a lot alike, but one is more light demanding than the other.

The Hagen CO2 is basically DIY CO2 in a pretty package with a passive diffuser. The canister is only 1L and as such can only produce a very limited amount of CO2, thus czcz's suggestion for adding another DIY canister. If you're not into DIY, you could buy a second Hagen system and use a t-connector to feed the CO2 from both canisters to a single ladder. You could then sell the second ladder off to make back some of the purchase price. Active Diffusers are always much more efficient than Passive Diffusers, although as far as Passive Diffusers go the Hagen ladder is a pretty good one even though it takes up a fair amount of tank space.

What is Carbonator? Is that one of those tablet CO2 diffusers or some kind of liquid supplement?

EDIT - Looks like czcz and I were responding at the same time. He beat me to it!

 

[PrettyFishies]

Carbonator - http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=4603&N=2004+113221

How much higher maintenence is the horwort?

I had wysteria in another tank - the mats were horrific!

I want to avoid a DIY, will 2 Hagen's achieve the 30 PPM? How would I create a DIY diffuser anyway?

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

I have rotala Nanjenshan, got it for free since it was going to be thrown out. all the growth was dead but it shot up new sprouts and still grows fine to this day. Light and Co2 are critical to it AFAIK. it is also very fine leaved and my SAE will eat it.. It's also very fragile and my Pleco currently snaps it off all the time.. He won't let it grow over 5" without snapping the branch off...

 

[Purrbox]

Hmmm... not too sure about that Carbonator, could just be stripping the CO2 out of the KH which could lead to a PH crash. I would definately do more research before trying that one out. For a liquid Carbon suppliment that is safe (although some plants like vals are sensitive to it) give Flourish Excel a try instead.

There's lots of great links in the CO2 sticky at the top of the forum, including information on how to build DIY CO2 canisters and diffusers. My favorite is the first link in the third post of that thread.

 

[PrettyFishies]

Pleco + Plants = Bad?

I want a golden nugget pleco in the worst way

Back to the ferts - I read the sticky and now see that I need:

Seachem Nitrogen
Seachem Phosphorous
Seachem Iron
Seachem Potassium


And test kits for each....

Sound about right?

 

[Purrbox]

You'll only need test kits for NO3 and PO4, as there isn't a kit for potassium or iron that is both affordable and accurate enough for our uses. You'll also want a trace mix (Seachem Comprehensive).

 

[PrettyFishies]

I have a master test kit with Nitrate and Nitrite... I'm guessing NO3 is different....

How will 2 Hagen system work towards getting me to teh 30PPM level?

 

[Purrbox]

NO3 = Nitrates

Double the CO2 production means more CO2 for your tank to absorb.

 

[PrettyFishies]

The question now is will that be sufficient or should I do the DIY?

If I do, do I need 2 2liter bottles for a 20 gal or just one? (i looked at the link u suggested)

 

[czcz]

Hornwort grows very fast in high light and the high maintenence is constantly trimming it

I doubt two Hagen canisters will provide enough for your more demanding plants. I would start with 2 2L bottles. If you already have and are set on using the Hagen ladder, you only need one -- it does not matter if many bubbles are climbing up the ladder at a time.

 

[PrettyFishies]

In reading the DIY article you suggested, they spend a section on safety - creating safety pressure valves and such.... I don't see any of that on the hagen - is it neccesary or can that part be left out?

I know I can get the ladder separate on Dr Foster's, how much am I really losing by using a ladder versus a PH setup?

 

[czcz]

IIRC the Hagen literature states that it has some sort of pressure release built-in. Maybe the tube blows off the tip (which narrows). You have two options for increasing CO2: increase it at the source (with DIY, more bottles or a higher output mix) or using a more efficient reactor. Long term, the few minutes and couple bucks it takes to build a powered reactor is the most effective solution.

2*2L DIY in ~15g with surface agitation

Hagen ladder: ~15ppm
Hagen ladder + DIY bell: 20-25ppm
Powerhead reactor adapted to Martin Thoene's river tank concept (diagram): ~45ppm
Sump return line (same concept as outflow of canister): ~45ppm

Good thread including Tetrin's experience.

 

[PrettyFishies]

I'm going to go with the DIY method... started buying stuff today and had a few questions. I read an article out of the Co2 stickie about how to make a DIY and the yeast - really good...but it's for a 55 gal and uses a 160gph PH and a 10" gravel tube.

Maxijet has a 106gph PH, but I don't see any tubes smaller than 10" -

Is 106gph too much for a 20 gal?
Is the reactor placed verticlaly or horizontally? Does it matter?

Also - I tested my tap water and got KH=2, GH=5/6 - I want my KH to be higher, right? and how about my GH? what do I do to change the KH?