On the right track, but still a disaster

[yohann976]

I think that I have made vast improvements, but my tank is still a major mess. Before, I had only the lights that came with my 90 gallon tank and I used some ferts from my local pet store. Needless to say, all my plants were dieing and I had a huge problem with cyano. So I decided to upgrade my tank.

I bought the Jebo Odyssea 260w pc lights. I know that a lot of people don't like this system, but I think that it works great. The two day bulbs are 12000K and the other two are just blue (I don't think that they are actually actinic blue). So I am probably working with only 130w for my plants.

As far as ferts go, I am using the Seachem line. I dose the suggested amounts on the bottles after every water change: One capful for trace elements, and three capfuls of potassium. I dose excel every day. I have stopped using Seachem Iron because it seems to make my algae problem even worse. Every month I use a plant tab for my sword plants. I change fifteen gallons twice a week. I have a 15 gallon tank to prep the water using Phos-zorb and carbon (I don't use these within the actual tank). I have a DIY CO2 system which uses two soda bottles with a reactor. I know that isn't enough CO2, but a little is better than nothing right?

I don't know all of my water's parameters for the elements. I know that the reading that I do have indicate zero nitrites and ammonia. I have between 10 and 15 ppm of nitrates, but I heard that certain test strips are inaccurate in showing proper measurements of nitrates.

Since I have turned on my new lights and started using my Seachem ferts, my plants have exploded with growth.I haven't seen any pearling yet. My riccia used to pearl until I started using Excel....it started to 'melt' at first, but has taken off again in growth (w/o pearling though). I've never seen plants grow this fast....I also have never seen algae grow this fast either. Large clumps of green algae have taken over my tank. It looks like very fine hair that is tangled together.This stuff is growing so fast on EVERYTHING that I have huge clumps of it dead on the bottom. These clumps get compacted on the ground where cyano has started to grow on top of it. The cyano is killing my belowed HC which seems to want to grow, but gets engulfed in it. Oh yeah, I almost forgot another kind of algae. Within the clumps of hair-like algae is staghorn. This stuff is growing like crazy on my vals...but not on any other plant.

Do I need to add ferts like nitrogen or reduce/increase the ferts that I already use? Or do I need to change my lighting? I have the feeling that somebody is going to suggest that the first thing I need to do is to go get a good test kit....lol. I know I should, but my budget is getting very limited right now.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

First things first, you will probably need to reset your tank. This should be done every week, a 50% PWC to reset all parameters. And as for only changing 15G with water treated with Phos-orb and carbon, you are removing needed nutrients from the plants. Yes you can make up for it by dosing, but kind of defeats the purpose. I always do a 50% PWC in my 75G reguardless, weekly, and add nothing but Prime when I'm filling my tank back up. Doesn't hurt a thing.

As for the lighting, you are probably on the edge of needing a full pressurized CO2 system. For a 90G, the DIY isn't going to do you very much at all. Also, you need to keep attacking the algae. Manually remove as much as you possibly can, especially the BGA (cyano). That's probably the easiest to remove if it's on top of the gravel. I'm fighting algae myself, as I started high light before CO2. So now even with pressurized, it's going to take a while to get rid of it.

Do you have a spare powerhead? If you do, use it to add extra current where the cyano is and see if it will begin to disappear. Sometimes the cyano will start forming in dead spots or pockets of low nitrates, and sometimes adding current will help get rid of it.

As for ferts, are you sure you are dosing the proper amount for your tank and plant mass? If you read on the bottle, it may say something like 1 capful for 60G, or something like that. But if you read further, it tells you that that will raise your total ppm for a 60G tank by only 2ppm. What does this mean? You may not be dosing near enough, and something is dropping out. My recommendation, read carefully and get out the calculator. I prefer Greg Watsons products myself, lasts longer and is much cheaper. You may want to look into it for that size tank. If you start dosing the proper amount of the Seachems products, you may find yourself going through a bottle pretty quickly.

Lastly, get a good test kit. It doesn't have to be expensive. And prices at bigalsonline.com are much cheaper than the lfs, will save you a lot of money.

Edit:
As for the lighting, I agree, pretty good lights. Just a little noisy, but I have several myself. I have 2 of those units on my 75G alone, 520W CF. Now that's a lot of light. If you decide you need to lower the lighting til you get a better hold on things, get 2 50/50 bulbs, and reduce it down by half. Once things start to get in line, then you can start stepping up the lighting.

 

[Purrbox]

If the blue bulbs say something along the lines of 420nm or 460nm, then they are indeed actinics. If this is the case your choice of ferts for dosing may be fairly close to where it should be although the amounts may be off.

I just went to Seachem's website and their recommendation for Flourish is 5ml per 60 gallon, so if dosing according to their guidlines which are fairly conservative you would want to dose 7.5 ml. In order to dose to .12ppm of Fe you would want to up the dose to 13ml. I calculated this using this dosing calculator which is mentioned in the fertilizer sticky. It looks like Seachem only recommends 10ml per week of Potassium, which is extremely conservative. To get the recommended 10-20ppm Potassium per week, you would need to dose 75-150ml per week. Definately more cost effective to dose dry ferts in this case as a bottle of Flourish Potassium won't last long at all.

Actually low fluctuating levels of CO2 can cause a form of algae called BBA (Black Brush Algae). Since you are stuck with DIY for the time being I would suggest stopping altogether for now if half your bulbs are truely actinic, as it really isn't necessary for your tank lighting. Otherwise you'll want to up the number of generators to four 1 Gallon bottles and make sure to use an efficient CO2 diffuser.

Without good test kits it really hard for us to help troubleshoot what's going on in your tank. It's possible to tell a lot from the appearance of your plants, but without really good pictures we can't use them as a guide for what's going on. You could get the AP Master Test Kit which is fairly inexpensive and will give you the basic FW test kits and then pick up the PO4 and KH kits separately. Which would run about $25 plus shipping. Or you could buy the Hagen Master Test Kit which contains everything you would need for $40 plus shipping. Both are recommended brands around here.

I agree with LoneWolfBlue that it would be a good idea to switch to 50% water changes once a week. Unless you've got some really bad problems with your tap water there's no need for the aging/treatment process you're using and if you're water was that bad you'd probably want to be using RO water instead. Just treat the tap water with a good dechlorinator like Prime and add to your tank. Hopefully when dealing with that much water you're either using a water pump or a python to help you with the water changes.

Here's a really good article by Steve Hampton on algae that might be helpful.

 

[yohann976]

My first question to your response is; will doing a 50% water only once a week would hurt my discus fish? I know that my 15 gallon changes twice a week aren't nearly enough according to many experts for discus. Would it be better to up the amount to around 22.5 gallons twice a week using my aging tank or would 45 gallons once a week be the way to go? If I do the 45 gallon method, does it go straight into the fish tank? Won't that hurt my fish....and what would I use to prevent that?

As for ferts, I really do like what the Seachem line has done so far, but it seems that dosing is going to get really expensive.I am very happy with the Excel so I will continue using it. Lonewolfblue mentioned using Greg Watson products....are there more good product lines that are not so expensive? From the ferts I mentioned that I am using....am I missing any? I have the feeling that I'll need to dose nitrogen too. One more thing about the lighting; my 130w daylights are 12000K, is it necessary to chang to something like 6500K?

I'll readily accept any more suggestions. Until then, I'll get a decent test kit for my water parameters and I'll get back to you.

Just did a water change last night. The water looks great and the nasty surface film should be at bay for a couple of days. I upped the potassium dosing as suggested. I hope to see improvements soon, but like I said; I'll get the test kit and continue with your help. Thanks.[/u]

 

[JustOneMore20]

Changing 50% won't hurt your fish...in fact it will make them happier. Yes it is suggested that you do around twice weekly water changes for Discus....some people do daily water changes. I've never kept them, so I can't give you my experiences with them, but I suggest you do atleast one 50% pwc weekly. I think personally I'd do 2 50% changes weekly, just to keep them healthy.

You can add the water directly into the tank. If you don't have one already, a Python would be great to invest in. It connects to your sink and the water pressure siphons the water out of the tank (and the nasties) and then it will put the water back in. I do my water changes this way and just add dechlor when the water is going back in. It would be a must if I had a tank as large as yours. There is also another brand, Lee's I think....that is the same thing, but a little cheaper.

I'd get the Greg Watson ferts. They are alot cheaper then buying the Seachem ferts....especially when you have to use so much. I'm going to get some for my 55g when i hook up some DIY CO2. The Seachem are just getting too expensive, even using them only once a week.

 

[Purrbox]

The dechlorinator is what makes the water safe for your fish, only other thing that you need to worry about is to make sure to match the temp of the tank water. Other than that you should be good to go. As far as the best water change regimine for Discus, I really don't know as I've never kept or researched them.

The dry ferts from GregWatson aren't a brand of fertilizer. Greg is a hobbiest who is trying to make it easier for other hobbiest to locate the dry ferts necessary for dosing their tanks. He offers them at very reasonable prices allowing you to buy them all from one place instead of having to hunt them down on your own. You aren't going to find these cheaper anywhere else unless you decide to hunt them down yourself, and even then you won't save much.
KNO3 = Potassium Nitrate
K2SO4 = Potassium Sulfate
KH2PO4 = Mono Potassium Phosphate
CSM+B = Trace mix
*The KNO3 does both Nitrate and Potassium, if you have to dose sufficent levels of Nitrate separate Potassium dosing may not be necessary.
*K2SO4 is used for dosing Potassium when you either aren't dosing KNO3 or aren't dosing enough to obtain your desired levels of Potassium.
*The KH2PO4 is used to dose Phosphates.
*CSM+B is a good trace mix. You could stick with the Flourish Comprehensive, since it's really good too. Another good option is Tropica Master Grow.

If you like the look of the 12000K bulbs, feel free to stick with them. You can use anything between 5000K and 12000K and it should work just fine for you plants. Bulbs closer to the 5000K are going to tend to appear more Yellow, while bulbs closer to the 12000K are going to tend to appear more blue. Sometimes the best effect can be achieved by mixing bulbs with different color ratings.

 

[yohann976]

Thanks guys....you people really know what you are doing. I'm sure that all of this information is going to help me out a lot. I'll update everyone in a couple of weeks. I should take some before and after pics huh.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Everything that has been said above is very good information. Read it over a couple times. And for the Greg Watsons dry ferts, he sells them in 1lb bags. And a single bag will last you over a year. So if you look at the cost of what it will cost you buying Seachems products for a year, that's a huge savings. So don't thing you need to go and buy a bunch of bags of each, just 1 1lb bag will last you quite a while. Also, there are quite a few other dry ferts listed on the page, but all you need are the 4 that are listed above by Purrbox. You really don't need any of the others, as they have other purposes.

As for the lighting, anything between 5k and 12k is fine for plants. On my 75G, I have a combo of lights, 6400k, 6700k, and 12000k. Gives a nice effect. I have the 12000k towards the back and the 6400k and 6700k up front. But that's what I found to be what I like. My next bulbs are going to be these:
CD-21119 22" SunPaq Dual Daylight 6700ºK/10000ºK 65W
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=13314&N=2004+113346

So, you have lots of good info to digest, and as you move along and have questions, post them. You will get a ton of valuable info, and best of all, it's free.

 

[JustOneMore20]

I have a question that yohann might be able to benefit from also. When using the ferts from Greg Watson, do you all mix them up with water and just dose the liquid? (sounds like a stupid question in my head). If so, what kind of container do you store them in? I'm used to using the Seachem products myself, so I'm new to the whole dry fert thing.

 

[Purrbox]

I personally mix up a separate solution for each fert and dose with a dropper. Of course since my tanks are all nanos, I only need very small amounts, so measuring out the dry amounts would be difficult at best. In larger tanks it's often much easier to dose the ferts dry. Measure out the amount need and mix with some tank water in a cup then dump back in the tank. If the amounts are too small for any of the ferts to be measured easily, just mix up a solution and dose that way instead.

I started out with Seachem's line of ferts so as I used those up, I reused the bottles for the dry ferts. Since they're opaque it helps avoid any possible problems due to exposure to sunlight. You can also buy dosing bottles or find other bottles that will work too.

 

[JustOneMore20]

That is a good idea to reuse the bottles. I wouldn't of thought of that. I'll be sure to keep mine as things run out.

Thanks for the info...its just something I've been wondering about. I didn't know if I could dose them dry or not. I'll only be using them in the 29g and 55g tanks....the 10g is coming down soon.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

I make separate solutions myself as well. But on my 29G, I'm dosing EI now, and going dry. I put some tankwater in a cup and add the dry ferts and mix well, then dose. I do the nitrate, phosphate, and potassium on one day and the CSM+B on the next.

 

[yohann976]

Until I get my ferts from the Greg Watson website, I am going to use my Seachem ferts. I upped the dosing of potassium as well as Fe and my plants are actually pearling in only one day!!!! I know that I still have a ways to go before I have a tank that looks like the pics in this website though.