Plant damage(?) at base

[Delapool]

Hi,

I'm getting stem plants that are breaking off at the base. About one or two a week are going. It's a little frustrating as some are pretty slow growing.

I found a few pics to show what looks like a length of the plant has been taken off. Otherwise the plants seem to have less algae than normal and I'm stuck. Its the plant on the right and looks like the "bark" has been taken off.

Dosing EI ferts roughly (higher in K) + substrate tabs and injected CO2 / quad T5HO.

Any ideas welcome. I do have bn catfish so wondering if it could be them? Was thinking of trying a little picket fence to test the idea??

 

[Caliban07]

Sounds like toxicity to me. I'm guessing your co2 is ample?

Hydrogen sulphide and metal toxicity can cause this. As to what metals exactly is have to dig out the Walstad book. There's are section on this.

Could you have damaged the stems when planting?


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[Delapool]

Sounds like toxicity to me. I'm guessing your co2 is ample?

Hydrogen sulphide and metal toxicity can cause this. As to what metals exactly is have to dig out the Walstad book. There's are section on this.

Could you have damaged the stems when planting?


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It could be something on micro's as that was high. I've halved the dose but do need to look at that. Thanks!

This one I reckon has been good for about a month in that spot and I just noticed it tonight. It's only growing about an inch a fortnight and it seems like they have to get a foot high before taking off. Could be some damage, maybe.

The seachem flourite does seem sharp this side of tank but the other side has more softer substrate and getting this problem all over tank. The giant hygro is just about all gone. Just doesn't seem to work now compared to under LEDs.

I've tried half glut to high glut dosing and no real difference.

 

[Caliban07]

It could be something on micro's as that was high. I've halved the dose but do need to look at that. Thanks!

This one I reckon has been good for about a month in that spot and I just noticed it tonight. It's only growing about an inch a fortnight and it seems like they have to get a foot high before taking off. Could be some damage, maybe.

The seachem flourite does seem sharp this side of tank but the other side has more softer substrate and getting this problem all over tank. The giant hygro is just about all gone. Just doesn't seem to work now compared to under LEDs.

I've tried half glut to high glut dosing and no real difference.

Is your light low in this tank?


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[Delapool]

I think it's about medium. The quad t5ho should be high but i think as it sits above the tank and has to get through Perspex covers, then down 2.5 feet some light is lost.

If I ever get this Seneye reef par meter working I'll post numbers.

I don't get the growth / weekend trimming that I got with the box LEDs but the BBA is very much under control now and only minor green algae.

I've lifted light time from 7hrs to 8hrs but it has been suggested more light intensity is needed. I do have a 1ft t5ho I could put on one side of tank to test.

On the co2 injected side I have seen some minor pearling recently.

I'm happy with the slower growth and less algae. All would be great except this

 

[Caliban07]

I think it's about medium. The quad t5ho should be high but i think as it sits above the tank and has to get through Perspex covers, then down 2.5 feet some light is lost.

If I ever get this Seneye reef par meter working I'll post numbers.

I don't get the growth / weekend trimming that I got with the box LEDs but the BBA is very much under control now and only minor green algae.

I've lifted light time from 7hrs to 8hrs but it has been suggested more light intensity is needed. I do have a 1ft t5ho I could put on one side of tank to test.

On the co2 injected side I have seen some minor pearling recently.

I'm happy with the slower growth and less algae. All would be great except this

How did you get on with this?


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[Sk3lly]

Sounds like toxicity to me.


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Theres a thread on a different forum i once read where one of the participants commented on a micro toxicity. He had his dosing bottles on an auto doser. His unit developed a fault and dumped his entire micro solution in one go. No issues to livestock or plants.

Very very sceptical of micro toxicity. Would love to see firm scientific evidence? Certainly not a copy and paste of diana walstad, unless it includes her scientific studies


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[Delapool]

Still ongoing here.

I'm looking at what I think is ludwigia and at the base it looks like there is a tiny split in the stem. This is right next to the co2 but it's happening all over the tank. Plant had been fine for several weeks.

Willow came and went so blah. So many plants gone!

The ambulia and val up the back are doing well. There's a dense jungle there I don't both replanting anything into.

Left side of tank with co2 injection on that side has got an unknown stem plant doing well so it's hiding problems. I've been replanting that and it is gradually taking over tank.

Right side with the red alt is blah. Lfs has swords in so thinking of grabbing them.

The problem seems to be on end of tank where not densely planted. There is a bit of GSA on leaves and stems (might be from light increase by an hour). It's possible something is going on which weakens the plant and it then breaks or is gnawed on. Idk. I'll get tank readings up today.

I've increased potassium again and seem to be doing better.

Could the glut dosing be an issue?

 

[Caliban07]

Theres a thread on a different forum i once read where one of the participants commented on a micro toxicity. He had his dosing bottles on an auto doser. His unit developed a fault and dumped his entire micro solution in one go. No issues to livestock or plants.

Very very sceptical of micro toxicity. Would love to see firm scientific evidence? Certainly not a copy and paste of diana walstad, unless it includes her scientific studies


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Most of Diana's work are actually references from prestigious scientist and their papers so if was to copy and paste from the book it would certainly contain some scientific data.

I was thinking more hydrogen sulphide as this is most certainly something that presents itself in this manner. I would agree that it's not probable but the symptoms of hydrogen sulphide poisons are similar.


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[Delapool]

Heck, I'll take any ideas

The ambulia I can accept that it gets run over and broken off but the rest

Picked up some swords I think today and got told they grow anywhere. Was thinking 'great, kiss of death there'

I found a post by Tom Barr which suggested something like auto-translocation or something where the plants don't like where they are and detach to float off.

The annoying thing is floating around at surface they seem to do ok and bend towards the light. The stems seem to take a bashing though if I don't rescue them within a week.

The only other really new thing I'm doing is using substrate tabs that I'm buying. These are made from white clay and organic fertiliser. I know in gardens manure can be too strong for plants but I assume it wouldn't be an issue here?

 

[Caliban07]

Yeah I'm clutching at straws to be honest. Whilst hydrogen sulphide toxicity is a thing it's pretty rare and you'd have to a pretty deep substrate and a collection of other factors for it to pose a problem. Not to mention the unmistakable smell that comes with it.

Whilst metal toxicity is also a thing. As skelly mentioned concentrations would have to get higher than most tanks would ever see before signs would appear. It applies more to the freshly planted soil substrate were the protective mechanisms are not quite in place.

I can't comment on translocation.

It sounds like you have everything right?


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[Delapool]

Readings were:-

Cu = 0

Kh = 6

Gh = 8

P = 2 to 5ppm (leaning towards 5 so bit higher than normal).

Nitrates - 30ppm I reckon.

It seems normal? I get told off at lfs if nitrates are above 20ppm. Phosphate could be a little high(??) but thought up to 5 was ok?

 

[Caliban07]

Readings were:-

Cu = 0

Kh = 6

Gh = 8

P = 2 to 5ppm (leaning towards 5 so bit higher than normal).

Nitrates - 30ppm I reckon.

It seems normal? I get told off at lfs if nitrates are above 20ppm. Phosphate could be a little high(??) but thought up to 5 was ok?

Baring in mind that the test kits aren't massively accurate the good thing is that you have SOME nitrates and phosphates so they aren't the limiting factor. I was under the impression that algae on leaves could only form as a result of damage to the protective layer of the leaf. In other words, if the plant cannot obtain enough of everything it needs then it can't build enough of the materials required to protect itself from predators, algae, parasites etc. That or if the leaf has been abandoned by the plant in favour of new growth but again, if the plant is abandoning leaves then it would not be receiving enough of one of the key elements.

Working out nutrient deficiency is too because they can represent themselves differently under a number of different variables and factors, hence EI.

Are you dosing micros? What about flow? Dead spots at the bottom of the tank. It's mentioned that if co2 is inefficient at the location of the plant (especially stem plants) they will loose there lower leaves and head for the surface where co2 is more plentiful (atmosphere) but this can also can happen with inadequate light and nutrients. Easier to start with light and co2 first. You mention that some plants are taking a foot before they start to start take off.

I have some of the same problems in my tank GSA, loss of lower leaves but I know I have issues I can't be bothered looking in to yet. For example, I have no nitrates or phosphates according to the test kit since I began adding liquid carbon and increased the light intensity.


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[Delapool]

Baring in mind that the test kits aren't massively accurate the good thing is that you have SOME nitrates and phosphates so they aren't the limiting factor. I was under the impression that algae on leaves could only form as a result of damage to the protective layer of the leaf. In other words, if the plant cannot obtain enough of everything it needs then it can't build enough of the materials required to protect itself from predators, algae, parasites etc. That or if the leaf has been abandoned by the plant in favour of new growth but again, if the plant is abandoning leaves then it would not be receiving enough of one of the key elements.

Working out nutrient deficiency is too because they can represent themselves differently under a number of different variables and factors, hence EI.

Are you dosing micros? What about flow? Dead spots at the bottom of the tank. It's mentioned that if co2 is inefficient at the location of the plant (especially stem plants) they will loose there lower leaves and head for the surface where co2 is more plentiful (atmosphere) but this can also can happen with inadequate light and nutrients. Easier to start with light and co2 first. You mention that some plants are taking a foot before they start to start take off.

I have some of the same problems in my tank GSA, loss of lower leaves but I know I have issues I can't be bothered looking in to yet. For example, I have no nitrates or phosphates according to the test kit since I began adding liquid carbon and increased the light intensity.


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I think previously everything grew so fast under the LEDs that I never noticed. I know BBA and potassium deficiency were an issue but I was planting and trimming so often it probably hid other problems.

PAR meter has arrived but no power source. I'll have to find a laptop for testing but generally I've found plants have slow growth for first foot yes and then in the second foot and a half they take off towards surface. Been told more light intensity could help.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f19/delapools-150-gallon-tank-342669-5.html

Micros are borderline high in dosing as I was adding at start of week and then during week. I was using the EI dose rate for iron but that meant I may have been high for the rest. I really need to check that though.

It doesn't remind of what I think was iron phosphate or iron deficiency issue when I was accidentally adding phosphate buffers. But idk.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/plant_problems.html

The stem base doesn't seem to rot off but breaks. Floating stems that I have replanted within a week have been pretty good to re-establish (to repeat the problem lol ).

Um what else. Flow should be good with an internal filter plus canisters.

CO2 I'll have to look up now I have checked the ph meters. It should be dosing between 15 to 30ppm off the top of my head but it's a big tank. I did look at CO2 meters out of interest as I saw another Tom Barr article that said CO2 can be low around plants even though you think it is ok.

Sorry bit of a large post there of rambling thoughts

I'll get a photo of next stem that breaks off.

 

[Caliban07]

I think previously everything grew so fast under the LEDs that I never noticed. I know BBA and potassium deficiency were an issue but I was planting and trimming so often it probably hid other problems.

PAR meter has arrived but no power source. I'll have to find a laptop for testing but generally I've found plants have slow growth for first foot yes and then in the second foot and a half they take off towards surface. Been told more light intensity could help.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f19/delapools-150-gallon-tank-342669-5.html

Micros are borderline high in dosing as I was adding at start of week and then during week. I was using the EI dose rate for iron but that meant I may have been high for the rest. I really need to check that though.

It doesn't remind of what I think was iron phosphate or iron deficiency issue when I was accidentally adding phosphate buffers. But idk.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/plant_problems.html

The stem base doesn't seem to rot off but breaks. Floating stems that I have replanted within a week have been pretty good to re-establish (to repeat the problem lol ).

Um what else. Flow should be good with an internal filter plus canisters.

CO2 I'll have to look up now I have checked the ph meters. It should be dosing between 15 to 30ppm off the top of my head but it's a big tank. I did look at CO2 meters out of interest as I saw another Tom Barr article that said CO2 can be low around plants even though you think it is ok.

Sorry bit of a large post there of rambling thoughts

I'll get a photo of next stem that breaks off.

Accurate co2 Meters are pretty expensive. Sounds like everything else is in check/considered so I'd be looking at co2.

What plant is this again? Perhaps just remove it from the tank and try again some other time?


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[Delapool]

Accurate co2 Meters are pretty expensive. Sounds like everything else is in check/considered so I'd be looking at co2.

What plant is this again? Perhaps just remove it from the tank and try again some other time?


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Thanks - it definitely does seem the left side closest to co2 injection is doing better so may well be.

Appreciated the thoughts. Always handy to bounce ideas (and have s shoulder to cry on )

It seems to be any semi-hard to woody stem plant that I have tried. I haven't tried bacopa so that will be next I guess. Or maybe something else.

 

[Caliban07]

Thanks - it definitely does seem the left side closest to co2 injection is doing better so may well be.

Appreciated the thoughts. Always handy to bounce ideas (and have s shoulder to cry on )

It seems to be any semi-hard to woody stem plant that I have tried. I haven't tried bacopa so that will be next I guess. Or maybe something else.

Haha no problem. I'm sure I'll be having all these problems myself at some point. Most of my ideas are based on research so no practical experience so I'm expecting a return when I get my injection system up and running.


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[Delapool]

Not the greatest pic but yeah, the left side has the co2 injection.

The right side has the red alt but a whole heap of stem plants have failed on this side. Is a bit suspicious as light and ferts would be the same.

Are swords low light? Was scratching my head on something very undemanding to try next if anyone may have ideas?

 

[Fresh2o]

If it is a question of CO2 levels throughout the tank, then placing drop checkers on either side (and maybe one in the middle) should help prove/disprove this. With proper circulation this should not be the case.
Are you actually seeing different growth rates with identical plants in different parts of the tank (assuming left side/right side)? I am late to the party and have not scrolled through the entire thread.
I have seen the above occur but it was due to shading from other plants primarily and, to a lesser degree, distance from the light fixture. Meaning, those directly under the light fixture did better than those further away from center. The plants I am referring to are low growing foreground plants.
I believe swords can tolerate low light but do better in low medium+. Bacopa caroliniana (and possible other Bacopa species) have grown well in low to medium high in my tanks.


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[Caliban07]

I would try not to focus on lack of co2 in the tank as a whole but rather availability/competition of co2 in certain areas of the tank.

Different plant species have different carbon affinities which means their uptake and requirement vary. Other things that change co2 uptake as you know is light.

As fresh has mentioned and Tom Barr reiterates quite frequently is try not to focus on PAR but uniformity of PAR at substrate level. You can only measure this with a certain degree of accuracy with a PAR meter. If light is uniform co2 needs to be uniform too as in circulation and transportation of the injected co2 needs to be distributed evenly which becomes more problematic as the size of tank increases.

Thinking about what we have mentioned so far. The plants on the left are in direct contact with co2. How much co2 is off-gassed by the time it reaches the other side?

Plant mass as a result is much greater on the right which means more uptake/diffusion of co2.

How much co2 is dispersed by obstructions in the tank (wood) before it reaches the far end. How many dead spots are there in the tank? Think about the hydrodynamics (fluid flow), is the motion of flow going in the right direction etc?

Many enthusiasts with such large tanks take hydrodynamics very seriously and a problem would probably only rear its head in such cases.

Can you switch the co2 system to the right side of the tank?


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