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Old 02-19-2020, 10:20 AM   #1
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Plant Issues

I have a couple of tanks going at the moment. One I have had running for about 2 years now (Black Gravel) and a second one that has been running for about 3 months now. I have various plants in both and was hoping someone can give me some advise or pointers on how to fix what looks to be nutrient deficiencies. I do not have all the parameters of each tank at the moment but I was hoping someone could give an educated guess based on a couple of pictures. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

In the tank with the sand (sub-layer of Seachem Flourite Black Clay Gravel) you can see some of the older leaves are turning black around the edges. I was wondering if this could be a magnesium deficiency? This is a 10 gallon tank.

Also in the other tank (Black eco-complete gravel), my cryps are growing weird and mis-shapen. A few leaves on my amazon swards are like this as well. But the swards are still growing nicely. This is a 29 gallon tank. I am wondering if this could be a calcium deficiency.

10 Gallon (With Flourit gravel topped with Sand):
Phosphate: 3ppm
Ph: 6.8
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm
Light: Aqueon Aquarium Clip-On LED Light (Planted) https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...e?ie=UTF8&th=1

On the 10 gallon I have been dosing "NilocG Aquatics | Liquid NPK+M | 500ml Bottles | Highly Concentrated Aquarium Plant Fertilizer for Demanding Planted Tanks" I been dosing that for the past 3 weeks. 1 pumps twice a week per bottle (Monday and Thursday I do one bottle and Tuesday and Friday I dose the other bottle). I have not used any root tabs on this tank yet. I just started using pressurized co2 about 3 weeks ago now. The growth is MUCH faster now. I just have the issue of the older leaves turning the nasty brown collor. They do not quit seem to be deteriorating yet like i have had in the past with my 29 gal tank. But I could be wrong on that.

Here is the link for the ferts: https://www.amazon.com/NilocG-Aquati...8XAARBE1K2ZR2Y

29 Gallon (Black eco-Complete)
Phosphate:2ppm
Ph:6.8
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 15ppm
Light: BeamsWork DA FSPEC LED Aquarium Light Pent Freshwater (30")https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

On the 29 gal. tank I use excel everyday/every other day. I dose "NilocG Aquatics | Liquid NPK+M | 500ml Bottles | Highly Concentrated Aquarium Plant Fertilizer for Demanding Planted Tanks" I been dosing that for the past 3 weeks. 3 pumps twice a week per bottle (Monday and Thursday I do one bottle and Tuesday and Friday I dose the other bottle). I use DIY root tabs using osmocote plus. I have noticed when after I add these the Phosphate levels jump pretty high for the next 2-3 weeks then levels back out to what it is now. I do those about once ever 3-4 months.

Here is the link to the micros and macros ferts
https://www.amazon.com/Liquid-NPK-Aq...ZGSYN8K23K7XKJ


These are of right now. I do 50% water changes every weekend on both tanks.
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Old 02-23-2020, 02:33 AM   #2
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The black margins look like what I see in my tank sometimes on slower growing plants. in my tank itís not a nutrient deficiency itís actually algae growth. Have you tried rubbing it off to see if itís actual leaf discoloration or algae?

The third picture, is that water wisteria? It looks to me like the emersed form of water wisteria. It will melt back entirely before growing new submerged form leaves. It can take a really long time to get healthy underwater growth and if thats what this is you canít save the emersed growth. Just take it out as it rots and watch out for new roots and growth . I actually float mine until I start seeing the submersed growth; when I planted it it just rotted but at the surface it seemed to be a nice compromise that allowed it to hang on long enough to convert to submerged form.
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:48 AM   #3
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I rubbed the Anubis and it seemed to come off some with a little effort. What would be the best thing to do for this? Just give it time to clear up or could a water parameter be off?

I am having good growth on the wisteria (about a pair of new leaves ever 2 days or so). But the leaves are not really changing. Would this take time before they start to change into their permanent submersed form?
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Old 02-26-2020, 11:05 AM   #4
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Looks like a lot of algae to me as well, maybe come cyanobacteria too.

It also looks like the tanks are very lightly planted, and not under the highest of light, which means slower growth. You are adding a tremendous amount of fertilizer given the growth and plant mass you have.

CO2 will certainly help, I suggest the following:

Reduce light intensity if possible.
Reduce photoperiod to 5 hours per day max (until algae has subsided, then slowly increase back up to 8 hours per day over a few weeks).
Ensure you are providing adequate nutrients for the plants (unhealthy plants promote algae). Thrive is a good option, and given your NO3 levels aren't out of whack, going with a modified EI "light" dosing regime using Thrive would be a good start. Use the website to determine how much Thrive to dose to achieve a leaner dosing amount:

https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php


Dose Flourish Excel or equivalent Met14 at the “after water change” rate on the Excel bottle once per day.
Manually remove all algae you can.
Manually remove excess organics in the tank by gravel vacuuming and cleaning filter media in old tank water every water change.
Manually remove any decaying or dead plant matter.
Increase water change frequency, and the amount of water changed.
Consider spot treating badly affected areas or dipping plants / hardscape in a Flourish Excel, Met14 or H2O2 + water solution. Google search which method you think would work well, and for general ratios to mix a safe solution. Certain plants can’t tolerate these chemicals, so ensure you do a little research prior to dipping / spot treating plants.
If using CO2, ensure CO2 is dropping the pH of the tank water a full 1.0 – 1.2. To do this, measure the pH of tank water with no CO2 dissolved in it, and then measure again 2-3 hours after CO2 has been running. Ensure the drop in pH is a full 1.0-1.2. If the drop is not there yet, slowly up CO2 over a few weeks until at least a 1.0 drop is achieved, and watch fish / livestock carefully. Adjust CO2 down if you notice fish gasping at the surface and consider running an airstone at night when pushing a 1.2 or greater drop. For example, a tank water pH of 7.5 with no CO2 dissolved in it, should reach a pH of 6.5 – 6.3 for CO2 to really shine, and for maximum plant health.
Consistency in CO2 levels is key to plant health. Keep CO2 levels as stable as possible once a desirable level has been reached.
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Old 02-26-2020, 11:07 AM   #5
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EDIT: Forum double posted for some reason, I deleted the double post.
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Old 02-26-2020, 11:30 AM   #6
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The photos are only for the 10 gallon tank. I mistakenly added the info from the 29 gallon (Sorry for the confusion there).

For my 10 gallon tank I am currently running CO2 at about 1-2 drops per second. I am still using the same ferts for it. I am tried thrive in the past (Finished the bottle about a month ago) and I was still having the same issue. My lights typically run about 7 hours a day. I say typically because the timer messes up a couple times a week. Some days I get home from work to see the lights never turned on so I have to manually reset the timer. I keep forgetting to get a new one when I go to the store.

I have been removing decaying leaves from the wisteria as it goes. Thats the only one still melting.

I tested the water again least night and hear are the readings:
NH3: 0ppm
NO2: 0ppm
NO3: 5ppm
PH: 6.8
PO4: 0.5ppm
KH: 7 dKH
GH: 9 dGH

Is there anything else I should be testing for that could help?
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Old 02-27-2020, 01:03 AM   #7
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I love water wisteria once it takes off; had it take over most of my tank at one point but it is a pain to get started from emersed stems sometimes. My new batch has been in there probably a month now and I’m finally seeing the new roots and submerged growth. For some reason this time it’s being really slow and I was afraid the whole thing would rot away before managing to put out submerged growth. I think floating it saved the plant in my case so you might try that if it’s been a long time and you’re not seeing it switch over yet.
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Old 02-27-2020, 09:13 AM   #8
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I have had mine planted for close to a month and a half. Like I said I am getting good growth, but it has yet to switch over to submerged growth. I feel like I have seen a little difference in the new leaves compared to what the old leaves looked like but that could just as well be wishful thinking.

Would it be to late to try to float them? And I think I have to much water movement for that. I have a HOB filter running and I am currently transitioning to a canister filter. So I will have both filters running for a few more weeks together until I am confident that beneficial bacteria are made its way to the new filter enough to be the sole filter.
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Old 03-02-2020, 09:10 PM   #9
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Do yíall think this could possibly be a potassium deficiency? I do not know how to test to see if I am low in K.

My last readings were taken yesterday:
Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:5
Phosphate:1
Ph: 7.6 (no CO2 at the time)
Ph: 6.6 (CO2 running for 4 hours)
KH:7dKH
GH:9dGH
Light/CO2: 5hours

And for some strange reason my wisteria still is not changing to the submersed form. Iíve had it for 6 weeks now. New growth come in good. But is not changing any.

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Old 03-03-2020, 08:57 AM   #10
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No, it looks like algae and old, slow growth.

Trim it away and replant the good tops if you want it gone for now, or trim away the bad lower leaves, they will never recover.
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Old 03-03-2020, 09:12 AM   #11
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For some reason I do not think it is algae though (I could be mistaken).

Would algae deteriorate the plant? The older leaves are much thinner then the new ones. The black stuff seems to get on the new growth when a new set of leaves start to grow.

It is also growing pretty quickly.
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Old 03-03-2020, 10:23 AM   #12
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100% that is algae, algae thrives off the nutrients / enzymes decaying leaves release. Older leaves are being cannibalized by the plant to feed new growth, leaving them prone to algae.
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Old 03-03-2020, 10:29 AM   #13
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Ahhh, If the "Older leaves are being cannibalized by the plant to feed new growth", then wouldn't there be some kind of nutrient deficiency causing them to decay to make way for new growth?
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Old 03-03-2020, 10:44 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC634 View Post
Ahhh, If the "Older leaves are being cannibalized by the plant to feed new growth", then wouldn't there be some kind of nutrient deficiency causing them to decay to make way for new growth?
Looks like, and confirmed by your NO3 test, N deficient.

Probably more than just nitrogen deficient, S, Fe, K and PO4.

N is the stand out, 5ppm NO3 not enough, light green, pale looking new leaves with cannibalized old leaves are N deficient.

What are you dosing again? How much how often? Water change schedule? pH of tank?
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Old 03-03-2020, 11:06 AM   #15
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This was my test results on 3/1/2020:
Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:5
Phosphate:1
Ph: 7.6 (no CO2 at the time)
Ph: 6.6 (CO2 running for 4 hours)
KH:7dKH
GH:9dGH
Light/CO2: 5hours

Above results were the test the day after a 50% water change. I regularly do a 50% water change on weekends.

I dose "NilocG Aquatics | Liquid NPK+M | 500ml Bottles | Highly Concentrated Aquarium Plant Fertilizer for Demanding Planted Tanksv" at a rate of 2 pumps each dose, alternating bottles. Macros on Monday/Thursday and Micros on Tuesday/Fridays.
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Old 03-03-2020, 11:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC634 View Post
This was my test results on 3/1/2020:
Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:5
Phosphate:1
Ph: 7.6 (no CO2 at the time)
Ph: 6.6 (CO2 running for 4 hours)
KH:7dKH
GH:9dGH
Light/CO2: 5hours

Above results were the test the day after a 50% water change. I regularly do a 50% water change on weekends.

I dose "NilocG Aquatics | Liquid NPK+M | 500ml Bottles | Highly Concentrated Aquarium Plant Fertilizer for Demanding Planted Tanksv" at a rate of 2 pumps each dose, alternating bottles. Macros on Monday/Thursday and Micros on Tuesday/Fridays.
I would add another pump of macros to each dose, NO3 levels are only 10ppm at weeks end (5ppm after a 50% water change), likely resulting in a nitrogen deficiency. Most EI tank with 50% weekly water changes are pushing 40ppm+ at weeks end.

For reference, when I dosed EI, it was 15ppm weekly. The tank would settle out around 10-15ppm after a 50% water change, and then I would immediately dose it with 15ppm extra (1 dose per week for macros).
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Old 03-03-2020, 11:32 AM   #17
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How exactly do you calculate the ppm being added to the tank per dose? I have tried using the EI calculator but the product I have is not on the list. This product in particular shows it in ppm/degree. What is the degree? I know most are in percentage on the bottles but even then I do not fully understand how to does per ppm. I have tried reading through other forums about it but they all seem to be in mg but most all-in-one ferts are liquids and therefor should be measured in ml right?

I will up the Macros by 1 pump each dose. Should I keep the Micros at the same?
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Old 03-03-2020, 11:42 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by DC634 View Post

I will up the Macros by 1 pump each dose. Should I keep the Micros at the same?
Yes keep micro's the same for now.

Up the macros. I don't feel comfortable doing the math to get you an accurate ppm per dose amount. Plus "1 pump" could mean a very inaccurate mL per pump value, so the results of doing the math / using a calculator would be inaccurate.

Basically, you'll have to perform your NO3 and PO4 tests accurately, and the same way each time, this will get you a good starting point and ensure a slight amount of consistency.

For NO3, light orange at weeks end is too little (<10ppm), deeper orange is good (10-30ppm NO3) and red is bad / too much (>30ppm). Assuming API test kit...

For me, I use individual dry fertilizers with a micro scale (calibrated each use, accurate up to 0.001 grams) and have complete control over what I'm dosing, therefore I can use the calculators to determine how many grams of what product to dose to reach any ppm of any nutrients I want into any water volume I want.
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Old 03-03-2020, 11:50 AM   #19
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Ok, so for the most part right now is more of a trial and error. Test before a water change and if its a darker orange do not change ferts but if it is a light orange then dose more throughout the week?

What should I strive for on my PO4 levels? 0.5-1ppm?

I think my next go around with ferts may be individualized. But i still have about 90% of the bottles I have now. I only bought them about a month and half ago.
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Old 03-03-2020, 02:15 PM   #20
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Ok, so for the most part right now is more of a trial and error. Test before a water change and if its a darker orange do not change ferts but if it is a light orange then dose more throughout the week?

What should I strive for on my PO4 levels? 0.5-1ppm?

I think my next go around with ferts may be individualized. But i still have about 90% of the bottles I have now. I only bought them about a month and half ago.
NO3:PO4 around 10:1 to start so if at weeks end you're NO3 levels are a healthy orange colour in the API test tube, PO4 should be around 2-3.

I dosed 5ppm PO4 directly after a water change, 15 ppm NO3... that's what made my tank happy...

But yes, increase dose until the vial is a mild orange colour before a water change @ weeks end.

Patience is a huge factor moving forward....
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