Starting up again years later - questions re:planted tank -

[Spankenstyne]

Hi folks.
Just wanted to say hello, and thank you all for the hours and hours of reading i've been doing here for quite a while now, so much so that i had to finally register and ask a few questions of my own.

I used to be into the hobby many years ago, not anywhere near as hardcore as most here and had only done the old FW tanks with plastic plants route. I was mainly into Oscars back then so it was big tank with little decor deal. I never got into any higher end equipment or canister filters etc either.

I see so much more information available now, but lots of it really delves deep into some technical aspects which while very informative perhaps skips some of the basic questions i have.

I want to start up a nice planted FW aquarium, but in regards to cycling would i be better off to start with a few plants or mostly a bare aquarium and concentrate on water quality & all the right levels before introducing plants? Or should i be setting up the substrate with a few plants and cycle it that way, then add more plants and eventually fish over time while maintaining my quality levels?

Unless i'm really reading it all wrong it seems ideally i'm best to leave out any fish until the tank has at least properly cycled ? I've read of people using fish, or pieces of dead shrimp to help cycle but it also seemed those methods were mentioned as more of a shortcut way of going about it which i'd rather avoid and try and do it right. Maybe i read into that wrong?

Anyways my end goal is to have a natural style tank in sort of a FW version of what people get with the SW reef tanks. I just want to make sure i start it right and have a good base of strong plantlife going.

Thanks to anyone who bothered to read this far haha.

Oh and did i maybe post this on the wrong forum? Would it be better served on the beginner one?

 

[hashbaz]

Most people suggest adding the plants right at the beginning.

If you are going to go with a high light tank, you may not need to cycle at all - if you have a lot of fast growing plants. The plants will absorb the ammonia until the bacteria can get established.

 

[Spankenstyne]

Oh ok i was hoping it might be more along those lines. Thank you.

Now if i go high light that's more than 2.5 wpg right ? I would also then probably want to supplement with C02 in that case as well ?

Sorry about all the questions, i'm just trying to make sure i'm wrapping my head around some of this right.

 

[Spankenstyne]

Oops nm just read the C02 FAQ up above that i somehow missed... must get more sleep lol.

 

[malkore]

Welcome to AA.com!

I'll make a few general comments:

1. fishless cycling with ammonia or raw shrimp is not a bad 'shortcut' at all...its actually the safe, humane way to prepare an aquarium for fish inhabitants. If you cycle using fish, you subject them to potential ammonia poisoning, then nitrite poisioning...which can drastically reduce their quality of life and lifespan...possibly even kill them.
In fact, fishless cycling isn't even a shortcut, as it takes just as long to fishless cycle as it would to fishy cycle.

2. cycling is going to depend on what type of planted tank you go with. if you did choose 2.5wpg from the beginning, with CO2 injection, you can actually load the tank up with fast growing stem plants, and then add half your fish stocking in the next 48 hours.
Plants can use ammonia produced by fish as a nitrogen source. What ends up happening is the plants keep ammonia levels undetectable by a hobby grade test kit, so the fish aren't harmed. There's just enough trace ammonia to get the bacteria growing that will convert ammonia to nitrite.
Because there's so little ammonia, nitrite is produced slowly enough that nitrafying bacteria can grow and and convert to nitrates.

3. my suggestion is to plan EVERY detail of this planted tank out first, before you buy one single piece of equipment. lighting, substrate and co2 systems aren't exactly cheap, so you don't wanna buy the wrong thing and be stuck with it, and still have to spend more money to get the right thing.

 

[workfortheman]

3. my suggestion is to plan EVERY detail of this planted tank out first, before you buy one single piece of equipment. lighting, substrate and co2 systems aren't exactly cheap, so you don't wanna buy the wrong thing and be stuck with it, and still have to spend more money to get the right thing.

I agree with malkore on this one. Decide just how deep you want to go for your plants. By this I mean commit yourself to buying whatever equipment you deem necessary to take care of your plants, and have it set up and running before you buy a single plant. Then once the plants are growing start adding fish, but at a faster rate than if you were trying to cycle the tank in a traditional fashion.

 

[malkore]

Technically, if you went with a DIY light fixture, you could start at, say, 1.5wpg which doesn't require CO2 (though it's beneficial) and then later double the lighting and add a pressurized CO2 system.

This lowers intial cost to half for lighting, optional CO2, but you'd still spend a little for a good plant substrate.

when I talk about DIY fixtures, I'm thinking of www.ahsupply.com Bright kits.
You don't mention a desired tank size, but say you went with a standard 75gallon: 48" long.
You could start with 2x55w lighting. Then when you had the cash, setup pressurized CO2. Then install a second 2x55w light kit, and you're in the high-light category.

As long as your DIY canopy was wide enough you'd have no problem. AHsupply also sells enclosures that'd hold 4x55w lighting.

Since I'm mentioning places to look, I like to get my bulbs from www.hellolights.com, who also sells pre-fab fixtures. Look at the price tags and you'll see what I mean about getting the wrong lighting and having to re-buy. And they even have some of the best prices on Coralife fixtures!

 

[sherry]

Malkore, I think you are one of the very best here, and I have lived by your advice more than once. that said, I am going to disagree on one point.

I don't think that it is a good idea to depend on heavy plant load and high light to help avoid a cycle, even if only half stocking a tank

I had just a mini cycle after I upgraded to a bigger tank (using seeded filter and eco complete) and I was neurotic about water changes, and I still lost fish to nitrite poisoning, even though nitrites were kept below .5

I'd suggest doing a fishless cycle in a well planted tank even if it is high light... and when you are good and certain that the cycle is complete, add your fish.

 

[malkore]

Sherry,

The wonderful thing about AA is we can disagree and not 'fight' about it.

Per your other post, I'm wondering about the water used in your tank...the pH is a little low compared to the Kh, and could be partially responsible for the fish deaths during the transition.

I'm a big fishless cycle advocate, but I've started up 3 high light CO2 injected tanks in the past without even using seeded filter media, and never had detectable ammonia or nitrite. After about 4 weeks I had the first traces of nitrate.

I will agree its not a foolproof method like fishless cycling.

 

[Spankenstyne]

Wow lotsa great advice, thank you all very much.

I've been in the reptile end of things for a lotta years so i'm not new to strange and possibly high maintenance requirements, i really like to be armed with all the right needs in mind. I definitely am planning on being excessively prepared well ahead of time, which where my silly questions come from. I'd rather ask what might seem obvious to some, so i'm clear on it than to make any assumptions.

It's beginning to sound like i might be ending up with some sort of C02 supplementation which is fine, it's just something i've never dealt with before so i'll need to be doing some more research.

It's good to know that i'll likely be able to add fish a little faster once i get the plants going, i was a little unclear on the whole process as to how to get this started, but it kind of falls into what i had suspected which is good.

Thanks again for all the helpful info so far, i'll keep on reading and asking questions This place is great!