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Old 01-18-2006, 10:34 AM   #1
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Toninia Fluviatalis... CZCZ any links / pics you 've got !

also I am jsut about to UP my kh from 2 to at least 3 so I can begin co2 injection.

should I risk using injected co2 at kh2 to save the plant.. or should I risk the plant at kh3 to protect the fish?

the way I wrote that hte answer seems obvious.. I guess what i'm really asking is whether or not it CAN Be safe to run co2 at kh2 with a controller.. or whether I should just let hte plant take it's chances at kh3
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Old 01-18-2006, 10:53 AM   #2
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If you have a pH controller, you're ok. pH swings caused by CO2 aren't nearly as stressful as pH changes caused by changes in Kh.

Baking soda works great for raising Kh...but sadly I cannot remember the proper amount to add to raise a quantity of water by 1dKh.

Ideally you should raise it to 3dKh first, but since you have the controller, just make sure you set your pH ranges right so you don't over-do it.
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Old 01-18-2006, 03:44 PM   #3
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Malkore..

I have apisto cacs, hillstream loaches, bristlenose plecos, feather fin rainbows and assorted tetras. My ph right now iwthout co2 is 6.5 .. how low can I set the controller to get some co2 in there before it becomes harmful to the fish.I do hear you that ph swings due to c02 are different that particulate ph swings. I'm jsut not sure how low remains too low.
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:08 PM   #4
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I wouldn't go below pH of 6.2. that gives you 38ppm of CO2 at 2dKh.

however at 2dKh a non-injected tank should have a natural pH of 7.0-7.2. at 6.5, I'm wondering what it is that's lowering pH already. driftwood? substrate? strange things that the city does to your water most likely...

you're not using water softener water are you?
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Old 01-18-2006, 08:07 PM   #5
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The way you phrased the question, I would let the plants take its chances in 3 dKH, fwiw. There are people who say they are growing it fine in 3-4dKH, and their common traits are very acidic pH and high light and CO2. If I had your tank and fish and water, I would raise a sample of tank water 1dKH, test pH, and post back. I think it is a toss up on which is better: raising KH one degree to provide extra buffering for CO2, or leaving KH alone since KH changes are stressfull to fish. More numbers and weighing subsequent advice is the only way I would feel good making that choice.

Anyway, Toninas As you research, note that as it has become more available and more people have tried it, the consensus on maximum KH drops.
http://www.toninastyle.com/front_page.htm
http://www.tonina.net/
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...t=10983&page=2
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...ead.php?t=9475
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.or...=0&vol=1&id=57 -- this is one of my favorite tanks and while I only know of her, I sometimes wish its owner would show it off and brag about it more... It is also the only non-acidic-substrate tank I have seen that grows Tonina sp. well.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=19901
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=22844
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...ead.php?t=5023
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=18874

My first Tonina was sp. 'Belem,' and here is a pic of it after a little while in 5.5-6 dKH, 6.6-6.8pH -- notice that new growth does not look bad, but the older growth is turning transparent:

And a week later.

A week or two after that it deteriorated quickly, and I then moved it into my then newly established softwater tank, but it never came back. When I move T. fluviatilis into this tank, they die in a similar manner. It is said that T. fluviatilis is easier than T. belem.

My inducing green water has prevented me from taking many close-ups of my soft water tank, where it grows well and looks good, but you can see my Tonina around in some of these pics. It is a fairly fast grower in this tank... I will take more pics tonight if wanted.

(chronological order)








I was topping the top 2" for a while per profile advice, but fishfry (the source of my T. fluviatilis and a more advanced grower) advised me to use the top 5", and since doing so I have gotten more side shooting.

My keeping my softwater tank at 2 dKH and <6.2pH is mostly the result of my substrate (Aquasoil) and DIY CO2 philosophy (keep it above 30ppm and variance does not matter). Outside of wanting soft, acidic water, the numbers aren't on purpose or anything.

HTH
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Old 01-18-2006, 09:26 PM   #6
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when you say "topping", what do you mean?
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Old 01-18-2006, 10:16 PM   #7
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Cutting a stem and replanting the top.

Trimming and propogation info you may find helpful: As you know you can leave the bottoms of most stem plants and new growth will branch out from the cut point. This does not work for T. fluviatilis, and so most pull up the plants and ditch the bottoms. If you are extremely patient, you can leave the bottoms, and though they will melt, they eventually have budding growth at the internodes. (See attached pic -- I cut the top off that stem at least 3 weeks ago. I am about to put it in emersed culture, and will post back if interested.) I am no expert but suspect that this is because it does not send out any roots.

This is in reverse chronological order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishfry
Hrm, everything seems good. I apologize if I am stating the obvious, but is there enough co2? My 20g tank goes through a lot of co2, I just kinda up it until I see the plants bubbling a little, by no means scientific like some of the people on the forum.

I know my plants really suffer when there is not enough co2, right now some of my leaves are starting to turn translucent because I haven't had co2 for the last 2 days because it ran out. Also, I have a lot of light on my tank and the toninas seem to really like that, they just grow like weeds now and it was never like that before. I used to barely be able to keep them alive, if at all.

Overall, I have a hunch it could be the co2 that is causing your problems.

Ethan



Quote:
Originally Posted by czado
Very helpful, Ethan. Let me apologize ahead of time, should this be rambling and not interesting.

I am growing it in Aquasoil Amazonia per your, Aaron, and chiaheads posts (I failed with Belem in aged Schultz, ph 6.6-6.8, KH 5.5-6.0. I have two stems of fluviatilis in that tank now and, as with belem, newest growth looks good, but then quickly turns transparent and is eaten by animals.) Below Aquasoil I have pumice, peat, mulm, and carbon. The tank has pH <6.2, KH ~2. Its growth is good. Your plants are very healthy and I am sure it had a big part. I will be patient for side shooting and give up on the old bottom stems that are dying in there

Joe

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishfry
Not a problem for me to try and answer.

What are your growth conditions? I struggled for the longest time with toninas and then I got aquasoil and they grow like magic, but apparently they grow like magic as long as there is peat in the substrate.

I used to plant them at 2" like the plantfinder, and I was actually the person that made that recommendation to 'tsunami' who wrote the article, but I have since started planting them when they are taller and they do just fine. Mine tend to start sending out sideshoots when they are about 4-5 inches tall. Also, my tonina never sends out roots like my other stem plants, it is more this fluffy stuff and I pull up all the tonina every few months and trim off all the bottoms and start over. Does that help, or did I just confuse you more??

Ethan

Quote:
Originally Posted by czado
I am replanting tops at 2inches per Plantfinder, and was hoping that the cut stem would side shoot, but it dies. The tops grow great but so far do not produce new stems. How do you propogate? Any advice is appreciated.

(Will ask in the forums if you prefer.)

Thank you.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg tonina_buddingfrom3wkold.jpg (51.7 KB, 18 views)
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Old 01-19-2006, 02:11 PM   #8
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malkore..

I add nothing to the water. there is driftwood but it is pretty much 6.5 out of the tap too.

Czcz and Malkore , I am torn between each of your advice. I know my apistos will be fine either way.. I need to do a little homework on hillstreams and featherfins and bristlenoses.

czcz, so in the end, would you suggest just tossing bottoms? I should have done that with my cabomba. I have cut and tosssed pretty nice full pieces and have stemmy dregs left.
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Old 01-19-2006, 03:30 PM   #9
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thanks for the info czcz! i've actually been doing that with my other plants--just didn't know it was called "topping" so far the tonina looks good and is growing, but it's only been 5 days. my kh is at 7dkh, and my ph is at 6.8--although i may drop it a little, so i have plenty of co2 and 4wpg. we'll see--i'll keep y'all updated.
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Old 01-19-2006, 06:35 PM   #10
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Sherry, yup. Notice that the Toninastyle progression tanks often start with very short tops in rows of staggered heights after trimming. I still have a few bottom stems in my tank and will plant the budding growth once it gets bigger, just because I have not read of people propogating this way, and I find it interesting. Those stems sure are ugly though
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