what am i doing wrong?!?

[crazycat]

aaaaauuuuugh--so aggravating! need help! i just want a pretty tank, where everyone is happy and healthy! to me it looks like a k deficiency. i recently reduced k dosing because i was accidentally triple-dosing. as of today, i am increasing the dose from 20ppm after a water change to 40ppm. but i can't tell if it's something else too. this is definitely recent, and after i lowered k dosing. but am i overlooking something else?

if i cut off ALL the affected leaves, could my plant die? i've been trying to be more conservative, because i don't want to cut them all of. i really want to save these plants! sigh

~Plant(s) affected?
amazon swords, leopard swords

~Tank size/volume?
125g

~Lighting/wpg?
4wpg

~Do you inject CO2? If so do you know the level?
yes. ~30ppm

~What do pH, KH, PO4, NH3 and/or NO3 test kits say?
ph: 6.9
kh: 9.5
p04: ~1-2
nh3: 0
no3: ~ 20ppm

~Dosing? What/how much/how often?
K: 20ppm after water change (sun). then 17ppm--t/th.
no3: 1x/wk after a water change. level never goes below 12.5 (heavily stocked)
csmb+iron (3 tbs--mixed per greg watson's instructions--m/w/f. i follow travis' dosing schedule
don't dose nitrates (after the first time) or phosphate (ever)

~Heavily, moderately, or lightly planted?
heavily. ~ 75%

~Fish stock?
lots. cyprinids, lots of plecos/loaches. tetras. snails. see profile for the total picture.

~Tank Location (near windows - in direct sunlight)?
near windows. northern exposure--no direct sunlight. lights on 7:30 am-noon. off noon-4pm. on 4pm-11:30. total on time: 12 hours

~How long has tank been set up?
6 months

 

[crazycat]

it couldn't be my farlowellas could it? i keep looking for nutrient deficiencies, but could it be someone munching? i don't think farlowella vitattas eat plants. i'm frustrated!

 

[Purrbox]

Looks like a potassium difficiency to me as well. Seems to fit well with the situation you described too.

Since swords are heavy root feeders, I was wondering if you have either a nutrient rich substrate or are using root tabs. They might need an extra boost from some additional ferts in the substrate in addition to the slightly higher potassium level.

 

[malkore]

You're dosing plenty of potassium though. Heck, I only dose 10ppm after a water change, and 10ppm 4 days later, and I don't have that problem.

With the intense brown discoloration, thin leaves, and yellow spots, it's either potassium, iron, or another trace that's deficient.

I too would suggest root tabs since swords are such heavy root feeders, and it's obvious from your photo of the in-tank plant that you're not using flourite or eco-complete for a substrate, so those swords could definitely use some root ferts.

 

[crazycat]

actually, i am using eco-complete. i have about an inch of gravel over 2 inches of eco. but i went ahead and bought some seachem root tabs to put under the swords. hopefully that will help.

thanks for the advice.

 

[travis simonson]

Just curious Cat, are any of your other plants showing signs of problems or is it just the swords and Crypts. They are both known to be heavy root feeders as stated earlier so if your other plants are doing well then it may be a good indicator of problems with substrate nutrients. In any case, if things snap back after putting in the root tabs, that should tell us. Good luck

 

[Simpte]

First I don't think you're dosing enough potassium. 4wpg is A LOT of light. You also never mentioned your GH. Harder water requires more trace, especially when dealing with csm+b. I also think your PO4 is limited (never found a reliable test kit for it). With that much lighting, you're going to have to dose more po4 and K and N. Once you increase the po4, your No3 uptake will climb. I perfer KNO3 as a fert (greg watson) or greenlight stump remover (lowes or home depot). I would have to say your tests are off. Something is not right whether it be Co2, PO4, K or No3 or a combination of both. I would start by adding po4 and K (almost impossible to overdose potassium) and adjust your no3 as needed. Are your fish gasping at the top? If not I would increase my co2 output also.

 

[crazycat]

ok--some answers and more questions...

travis--yes, it is only the swords that are affected. all my other plants are growing like crazy--the ludwigia repens is out of control! even the crypt you sent me is doing well. but no one really pearls. i bought some root tabs today and will administer them when they arrive.

simpte--my gh is 10. how much trace should i be dosing--i followed greg watson's formula for dosing flourish at my tank size. it comes ot to 3tbs of the mix.

if i need to up the co2, and my ph is already at 6.9, can i really go lower? i use the aquarium pharmaceuticals test for phosphate--the seachem gave me completely unusable readings.

i WAS triple dosing K, when i realized my "mistake", but the plants were doing really well with that dosing, so i'll go back to that.

in your scenario, what should my nitrates be? they never dip below 12.5. what would be an ideal level in my tank? i'm just worried aobut hurting the fish and the snails.

as for gasping, they were gasping in the mornings, so i put a bubble stone on the night timer, and that seemed to work to everyone's benefit.

i'm afraid to dose po4 since i guess i don't have reliable readings--isn't oversoing REALLY bad?

now what?

 

[BlazerFRS]

in your scenario, what should my nitrates be? they never dip below 12.5. what would be an ideal level in my tank? i'm just worried aobut hurting the fish and the snails.

FWIW

I think you misinterperted what he said; It seems to me he wasn't saying anyhting about your current NO3 level (as I understand 10-20ppm is considered ideal), but that you should be going through more of it with the amount of plant matter you've got in there. If PO4 is the limiting factor (as he seems to be suggesting) if the plants get more PO4, they should grow more and be able to use more NO3.

At least that's how I read it.... forgive me if I've misinterperted your statement, Simpte!

 

[crazycat]

aha--this is me being a newbie to planted tanks.

what is the relationship between po4 and no3 uptake. and how do i make sure that i don't overdose po4. everything i read points towards being very very careful with po4--and i'm scared to dose since i'm not sure how accurate my test is.

any advice?

 

[rich311k]

You want to keep po4 and no3 at a 1 to 10 ratio. Once you start raising the nitrates test your phosphates and keep the ratio at 1 to 10.

 

[crazycat]

so, forgive me if i'm being an idiot...cuz i'm really not good at this...

if my phosphates are 2, and my no3 is 12.5--that's a greater ratio of phosphates to no3. so it seems that i need to get my no3 up to 20ppm.

but according to simpte, my basic levels of everything are too low. is this true--do i want phosphates higher than 2, and nitrates higher than 20-30ppm? he indicates that it has to do with my high wpg. and there is the gh factor--10. how does this figure in? i'm a chemistry failure.

or do i just go with chuck's levels? aaaaauuuugh.

i know that the frustration will lead to a rewarding healthy tank--but it sucks flailing about until i figure out what works for my tank! (sigh)

 

[rich311k]

I would just dose N to 20 and leave the Phosphate alone until it goes down.

 

[Crusis]

My swords grow great with CO2 at 17ppm, 2.5WPG, and I rarely ever add any trace elements. Of course I live in Indiana where they don't bother to mine metals and limestone from the ground, they just pour tap water into a bucket, let it evaporate, then collect the ingot left in the bottom.

I don't know very much about plants at all, to be honest, but man, that's a LOT of light.

 

[sherry]

okay.. so I'm reading this and trying to learn as I am setting up my tank now. What would happen if Cat reduced her light to 3 wpg? would all of her woes go away? are all those fert instructions geared for 3 wpg?

 

[czcz]

Now that you have added the root tabs waiting to see what happens is a good course of action. Only having trouble with one species in your first planted tank isn't bad. I cannot grow those swords well either. You are doing well I think.

Just to add to the great advice given:

this is definitely recent, and after i lowered k dosing. but am i overlooking something else?

For now getting K back to where it was is a good idea. It is a large dose, but if it ain't broke...

With traces, it is said that high K dosing leads to Ca uptake issues. Your not mentioning Ca deficiency and the high GH test may mean you have an abundance of Ca but not much Mg. If you do not already add one tablespoon of MgSO4 (Epsom salts) to your trace mix, you should start and see what happens.

You could also get a Ca test to check the levels. I have never done this but more advanced aquarists have.

how do i make sure that i don't overdose po4.

Do a large water change at the end of the week and you should be able to keep PO4 under control. Since you are already familiar with Travis's dosing schedule, with your light I think you should go all in with his dosing schedule and adjust the levels as necessary. I completely agree with Travis about EI, fwiw. A lot of this hobby is trial and error to figure out how each tank works, and regularly dosing micros and all macros makes sure nutrients are not the problem.

As with your situation I have two test kits that give me 1-2ppm PO4 from tap. In my most successful tank I dose to ~3ppm PO4 and try to maintain 10ppm NO3... trial and error.

No matter what advice you try, it may take a week or two to see the effects. There is nothing wrong with going slow and trying each of these things one at a time.

sherry,
As you know, a healthy planted tank needs a balance of light, CO2, and other nutrients. If crazycat lowered her light she would lower nutrient uptake, but high light is still high light, and most with healthy high light set-ups dose nearily every day and maintain high CO2. The higher the light the lower the margin of error, and getting 3wpg down before moving to 4wpg is wise.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

 

[cowman345]

Cat, hang in there, I'm going through much of the same frustration you're dealing with now too... I'm confident by seeing others' tanks around here that everything will eventually fall into place if we just stick it out and keep trying.

Your tanks look great, keep at it!

-dave-

 

[crazycat]

thanks for the info czcz!

and thanks for the encouragement cowman!

just an update...i added root tabs to all the swords, and they are doing MUCH better! i will try adding Mg to my trace mix to see what happens.

is that one 1tbs of trace to 500ml (to which i add 1tbs of plantex csm+b + iron)?

 

[Hoovercat]

Dose your 1-2ppm of PO4 about every other day and test at each water change. I've gotten up to 10ppm by the AP test without ill effects. While you only want ~2ppm of PO4 it has to stay available to your plants and I think the AP kit tends to read high. I've been dosing this way and while I add ~6-8ppm over the course of a week I still read ~2 at water change. Do you have heavy growth of green spot algae? I've heard that's a good sign of low PO4.

 

[crazycat]

really??? you dose that much? but what do you keep your nitrates at? my are consistently at about 20ppm due to my bioload...

no--not a lot of green spot algae--i think it's normal--i wipe it off every few weeks or so--but it's not very noticable.