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Old 08-31-2011, 12:08 AM   #61
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Blood parrots were made by people too!? 0_0
yep,and most of them cant close there mouths
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Old 08-31-2011, 12:35 AM   #62
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Ohh wow. Well humans really like messing around with nature don't we
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Old 08-31-2011, 01:05 AM   #63
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Ohh wow. Well humans really like messing around with nature don't we
Of course, there isn't enough species out there so we have to make our own.

Intentional hybrids are generally frowned upon by most serious aquarist circles.


I don't hate hybrids, I just think they look silly and often extremely deformed, akin to clown puke gravel and bubbling volcanoes. If someone wants a fish with a giant tumor looking bulge on their head, tattooed/dyed bodies or spinal deformities then so be it, it's just not my cup of tea.
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Old 08-31-2011, 01:16 AM   #64
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I don't think I disagree with it.

If were going to create an unhealthy animal then I will disagree with it. Such as the dyed fish or spinal deformities you mentioned.

I also don't like to think how species we "create" could be let loose into the wild and the impact that could make on ecosystems.
Of course this happens with species we don't create as well...
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Old 08-31-2011, 01:23 AM   #65
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I don't think I disagree with it.

If were going to create an unhealthy animal then I will disagree with it. Such as the dyed fish or spinal deformities you mentioned.

I also don't like to think how species we "create" could be let loose into the wild and the impact that could make on ecosystems.
Of course this happens with species we don't create as well...
Generally mother nature takes care of it, many hybrids are sterile or have other issues, high cull rates, etc.

As far as letting fish loose in the wild, it'd possibly be a problem if it were a predator on the top end of the food chain, but usually hybrids and selective bred fish are much more fragile than their wild counterparts so they don't particularly thrive in a wild environment. I'd possibly argue that some selective bred fish/hybrids have even lost some of their instinct as well, I know that if some of the cichlids I've had were responsible for repopulating the world, they'd be doomed, lol.

One interesting side note, I know that here in FL, the FWC actually stocks our local waterways with hybrid fish regularly.
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Old 08-31-2011, 01:48 AM   #66
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I understand everyone's concerns over the hybridization of fish and all. But, I see flowerhorns as an exception. These are fish that in the area that they were originally bred are prized animals. They were bred to have particular characteristics as not only a sign of success and status, but for religious purposes also. I wouldn't imagine anyone releasing them in that area, but this is all my understanding and what I have gathered from FH-specific forums which tend to mostly be Asian members who see the fish as such.

They are not fragile, sterile, or deformed. These fish are very tough guys, being able to survive not so ideal conditions. They reproduce like beasts if you get into breeding them. And also, their intelligence can be mind-blowing. Find someone who has had one of these guys for years and they are almost like a dog. I was won over on my last trip to New Orleans and a guy had his FH on display. He stuck his hand (well cleaned, of course) in the tank and the fish swam up and rubbed all over him. They register attention and interaction that you can't find in many other fish. I have spent hours training him and getting him to interact, which is starting to pay off. They are honestly the dogs of the fish world.

But, this is a fish I feel passionately about. I know people see them as unnecessary. I do agree that nature has produce amazing fish in all shapes and sizes. Nature has done a great job. But, if with a little tweaking, a new species is formed that is not a detriment, I see no issue. I don't agree FHs are on the same level as tattooed fish, there is no pain that is involved. The only pain that a FH will experience is when they are wrongfully purchased by someone as a juvie to be sold when they get big, pretty, and worth a lot of money and they go into depression and heavy aggression.
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Old 08-31-2011, 01:51 AM   #67
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Yes, and many of them are also dyed.
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Old 08-31-2011, 01:53 AM   #68
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Flowerhorns dyed? If have never heard of that one. What would be the point? There are so many crazy colors anyway.
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Old 08-31-2011, 01:58 AM   #69
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So, just looked that up. I knew about blood parrots being dyed/tattooed, but not flowerhorns. Apparently it's uncommon, but does happen? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. I'm losing faith in this hobby.
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Old 08-31-2011, 02:19 AM   #70
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Yes, and many of them are also dyed.
That's not a very valid argument. Should we not keep guppies, goldfish, mollies, danios? All of these fish are dyed frequently. It happens to ALL popular fish. Not just flower horns.

I see nothing wrong with flowerhorns. I wouldn't want one if I could keep one but as long as the animal itself does not suffer in any way I don't care. And of course it's not natural. Nothing in aquaria is remotely natural, no matter what soap box preachers like to say.

If the fish bred then they bred. No one forced them to. No one did some "Frankensteining" of fish. They were in the same tank. And miraculously viable offspring came about. There is no manipulation in science that could cause them to otherwise produce offspring- They could have bred if they weren't geographically separated.

Again you note two seperate variations of trout. Over time they may become distinct species out of behavior or coloration. But until they become very distinct and can't hybridize they aren't two distinct species. If the trout groups you note were not able to hybridize doesn't that say something about the genetics of the cichlids then? Doesn't that mean by that same definition they are in fact very very close relatives?

African cichlids are just like SA cichlids in that they're all genetically similar and display a giant breadth of variety. The only thing is that SA cichlids are distributed through river systems while africans have been relatively locked in with their relatives for so long they've had the chance to interbreed. There is a HUGE plasticity amongst cichlid species.
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Old 08-31-2011, 10:43 AM   #71
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Have any of you "serious" fish owners, ever owned a flowerhorn.. Saying goes dont knock it till you tried it. Oh and theres more to them then huge humps on heads
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Old 08-31-2011, 07:06 PM   #72
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Flowerhorns dyed? If have never heard of that one. What would be the point? There are so many crazy colors anyway.
No, sorry, this was a reply to another post way back.
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Old 08-31-2011, 07:17 PM   #73
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That's not a very valid argument. Should we not keep guppies, goldfish, mollies, danios? All of these fish are dyed frequently.


Again you note two seperate variations of trout. Over time they may become distinct species out of behavior or coloration. But until they become very distinct and can't hybridize they aren't two distinct species. If the trout groups you note were not able to hybridize doesn't that say something about the genetics of the cichlids then? Doesn't that mean by that same definition they are in fact very very close relatives?

African cichlids are just like SA cichlids in that they're all genetically similar and display a giant breadth of variety. The only thing is that SA cichlids are distributed through river systems while africans have been relatively locked in with their relatives for so long they've had the chance to interbreed. There is a HUGE plasticity amongst cichlid species.
I have yet to see a guppy, goldfish, mollie or danio that has been dyed. Indeed there is no good reason to dye a flowerhorn. My post about dying was with regard to the blood parrot.
As far as the Lake Trout I spoke of, they are a separate strain, of the same species, and they don't interbreed.
As far as distantly unrelated cichlids breeding, many things can be accomplished through the use of hormones, that would never occur in nature. So, even with the huge plasticity of cichlids, hybrids rarely occur in the wild, even when two closely related species share habitat. In the African rift lakes, you have color variations of the same species that don't normally interbreed.
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Old 08-31-2011, 07:26 PM   #74
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Have any of you "serious" fish owners, ever owned a flowerhorn.. Saying goes dont knock it till you tried it. Oh and theres more to them then huge humps on heads
No serious fish keeper I know would own one, so based on my personal experience, the answer would be, no. That is not to say that I will never meet a serious hobbyist who does keep a flowerhorn, but it hasn't happened yet.
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Old 08-31-2011, 08:55 PM   #75
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What I meant by the 'serious aquarists' was referring to aquarist clubs and groups, the whole hybrid thing is generally frowned upon. It's usually an ethics argument more than anything.

I don't need to try it to know I don't want to keep one, it's just not interesting to me. I have no desire to have an extremely large tank with a single fish in it, and I'm not a fan of nuchal humps, natural or grossly exaggerated, but if I had to get something similar it'd probably be a trimac.

As far as them having some special personality skills, a lot of cichlids do, hand feeding, petting, tricks, etc is not something that just started with the recent flowerhorn craze. They had to inherit them from somewhere after all.
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Old 08-31-2011, 09:13 PM   #76
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Having been a member of an aquarium society for quite a few years now, I have met a lot of people that could be called serious aquarists. Some I would even call expert. Some of these were members of our club, others I met at various other club type functions. The depth of knowledge some of these people possessed was staggering. We all have specific interests within the hobby, and mine doesn't include Flowerhorns or any other of the man made mutants. It also doesn't include Arrowana, goldfish, large predators, pirhanas or snakeheads. What I have seen however, is that flowerhorn keepers rarely have interest in the hobby, beyond flowerhorns. They aren't the only type group like that, perhaps.
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Old 09-01-2011, 11:13 PM   #77
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