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Old 01-15-2023, 10:59 AM   #1
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Question Angelfish breeding

Good morning.
It is a glorious brisk day here in Texas, and I have a gorgeous breeding pair of angels that have spawned about 10 times for me. I got interested in raising the fry because of this and am now on the third iteration of trying. First spawn lasted only 4 days after hatching (clueless). Second - 9 days after hatching with tray method, and this one is on day 9 with jar method.

None have become free swimming. At end of yolk sac they look tired and worn out, then just perish. Last time, I fed newly hatched brined shrimp. One fry ate it and became free swimming for 1 day, then also perished the next day. Needless to say I am in need of advice.

So far I have been putting eggs from leaf in methylene blue jar with bubbler.
At wiggler stage I begin water changes. I wonder if small amounts of methylene blue after they hatch is causing them to weaken. That is my suspicion, since they tend to just weaken and die after 9 days post spawn and never free swim.
On day 6 after hatch , the last 2 times I moved them 1) to a fry tray method and 2) this time to an angels plus jar method. The next day fry tray all but one dead. Today is day 2 of jar method and I have about 6 still wiggling. Water is clean and parameters seem perfect. New angels plus Jar is in a nicely cycled 10 gallon tank with overflow filter that has been present for months and has housed guppies in the past.

Good news is my pair are cleaning their leaf and tubes are out, so I expect a spawn today. I feed the parents cichlid pellets and bloodworms and flakes. They are prolific and this would be day 9 from last spawn.

(This current spawn (jar) was a small yield of eggs as I was away and about 3/4 of the spawn was white when I returned to remove eggs.)

I have looked at your posts Andy, and am here because of it. I am excited that you are developing the angelfish stock again. Andy- I need your help! Looking forward to your post.

Thank you!
Rebecca

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Old 01-15-2023, 03:01 PM   #2
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There are a few things but first I encourage you to read through these 2 threads on breeding Angelfish: https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...st-237956.html

https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...ls-324616.html

You will get A LOT of information in these 2 threads.

There is some evidence that methylene blue can cause some internal issues with fry so it's best to start removing it from the hatching tank before the eggs hatch. Once you have the routine down, you can better guess when the eggs are supposed to hatch so you know when to start removing the Blue. ( I use a carbon cartridge attached to my sponge filter for this. )

The first thing you check is for ammonia in the water. As you read through the Wigglers 2 thread you will see that I suffered from the same situation with my fry after a while in my new Hatchery. It ended up being ammonia in the air getting into the water via the air system. It could be your situation or ammonia in your water naturally. Either way it needs to be checked.

Next, to better help you, I need to know how you have your setup, how your breeders are set up ( fish room or just a tank in the house) , what water you are using for hatching the eggs, temperatures, water chemistry and any other information related to method(s) you are using.
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Old 01-15-2023, 07:39 PM   #3
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Have you thought of leaving the eggs with the parents so they can keep them clean and look after the fry?

In rearing containers the biggest killer of young fry is poor water quality (ammonia).
Do you have an established (biologically cycled) air operated sponge filter in the rearing tank?

what are the dimensions of the rearing tank?
How much water is in the rearing tank?

Do you have chlorine or chloramine in the tap water?
Chloramine regularly leaves ammonia in the water after treatment and this can kill fry.

The parents could be poor quality fish producing weak offspring.

Fish being used for breeding purposes should be fed 3-5 times a day (for at least 2 weeks before breeding) with a variety of dry, frozen and live foods. This allows them to gain some weight and produce good quality gametes (eggs & sperm).

What is the GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness) and pH of your water supply?
This information can usually be obtained from your water supply company's website or by telephoning them. If they can't help you, take a glass full of tap water to the local pet shop and get them to test it for you. Write the results down (in numbers) when they do the tests. And ask them what the results are in (eg: ppm, dGH, or something else).
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Old 01-16-2023, 10:38 AM   #4
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Not always poor water quality or poor husbandry. I have one pair that the wigglers always die off the day they should go free swimming. The next pair over always gives me a healthy swarm of free swimmers using the exact same water and methods. It could just be weak genes in the parents..
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Old 01-16-2023, 12:03 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by ghyti View Post
Not always poor water quality or poor husbandry. I have one pair that the wigglers always die off the day they should go free swimming. The next pair over always gives me a healthy swarm of free swimmers using the exact same water and methods. It could just be weak genes in the parents..
Very true. Genetics in today's Angels are really mixed so it's part of the " few things" that could be the reason why. It's a process of elimination to figure out which it is. Good thing Angels give you a lot of opportunities to figure it out.
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Old 01-19-2023, 07:58 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Andy Sager View Post
Very true. Genetics in today's Angels are really mixed so it's part of the " few things" that could be the reason why. It's a process of elimination to figure out which it is. Good thing Angels give you a lot of opportunities to figure it out.
Hope itís not that.
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Old 01-19-2023, 08:08 PM   #7
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Fry- free swimmers donít make it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin_T View Post
Have you thought of leaving the eggs with the parents so they can keep them clean and look after the fry? Yes but they have eaten the eggs every time up to the 5 th time when I started trying.

See answers in text below:

In rearing containers the biggest killer of young fry is poor water quality (ammonia).
Do you have an established (biologically cycled) air operated sponge filter in the rearing tank? Yes for months. No ammonia.

what are the dimensions of the rearing tank?
Using the jar system in a 10 gallon. But havenít been able to get them past the jar yet.

How much water is in the rearing tank? 1 gallon jars with 2 sponge filter setup.

Do you have chlorine or chloramine in the tap water?
Hardly any at all. Reads zero from the tap and in my water, although I do use a decal or when I add water.

Chloramine regularly leaves ammonia in the water after treatment and this can kill fry.

The parents could be poor quality fish producing weak offspring.
Hope notÖ

Fish being used for breeding purposes should be fed 3-5 times a day (for at least 2 weeks before breeding) with a variety of dry, frozen and live foods. This allows them to gain some weight and produce good quality gametes (eggs & sperm). Mine are pigs for sure and eat a lot. I feed chiclid food, flakes and blood worms and frozen brine shrimp.

What is the GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness) and pH of your water supply?
Go is 75 ppm
Kh is 40 mg/L
PH is 7.2

This information can usually be obtained from your water supply company's website or by telephoning them. If they can't help you, take a glass full of tap water to the local pet shop and get them to test it for you. Write the results down (in numbers) when they do the tests. And ask them what the results are in (eg: ppm, dGH, or something else).
See answers above in text.
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Old 01-19-2023, 08:51 PM   #8
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Hope itís not that.
In my last hatchery, I was changing fish a lot because of the genetics. They just produced really crappy fish. This is actually not a new thing. Back in the day, breeding a Zebra to a Zebra produced less than 5% good fish. In this last hatchery, I tried to do it again and the results were the same only with a lot more colors in the mix. Once I mated them with non Zebras, the ratio went up much higher. I had some gorgeous Barred Marbles that were the offspring of the fish in my Avatar so you know they were "hot looking". The six fish never produced a single living fry. I tried brothers to sisters and sons to Mother and nothing. :^s That's just how it goes.
But as I said, there is a process of elimination you need to go through to figure out which it is. It comes down to " If all else fails, it's probably the genetics and it's not going to ever work".
Hopefully you can get a lot of information in the threads I posted which will help show you how to figure it out.
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Old 01-19-2023, 08:53 PM   #9
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What's a decal?

Hardly any at all. Reads zero from the tap and in my water, although I do use a decal or when I add water.

------------------

Leave them with the parents and see what happens.

Try hatching them without Methylene Blue.

Put the eggs in the 10 gallon and let them hatch there. The larger water volume will dilute any ammonia.

Try feeding boiled egg yolk or a liquid fry food for a few days and then add newly hatched brineshrimp.

Do you have a heater in the tank?
The temperature might be dropping at night and causing issues.
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Old 01-19-2023, 09:52 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Colin_T View Post
What's a decal?

Hardly any at all. Reads zero from the tap and in my water, although I do use a decal or when I add water.

------------------

Leave them with the parents and see what happens.

Try hatching them without Methylene Blue.

Put the eggs in the 10 gallon and let them hatch there. The larger water volume will dilute any ammonia.

Try feeding boiled egg yolk or a liquid fry food for a few days and then add newly hatched brineshrimp.

Do you have a heater in the tank?
The temperature might be dropping at night and causing issues.
Thanks for the ideas!
I meant to type ďdechlorĒ. Not decal.
I am presently taking care of wigglers day 5 with H2O2 instead of methylene blue.
I have Walter worms coming in the mail from Kentucky tomorrow - will try that as first food. I tried that first food stuff on one spawn, but no luck.
Havenít seen a liquid fry food?
Have a heater set at 82.
I can try the 10 gallon with next spawn. (Should spawn again in about 4-7 days.). Sheís always on time. Loves to spawn the day after a water change.

Worried that itís just genetics. Which to switch, the male, the female, or both? She seems to give me spawns of at least 300-500 eggs every time, so I feel like I should try to find a new healthy male somewhere. She tears him up anyway with her pre-spawn antics - heís covered in scars. Itís like the old west. If she had a gun, heíd be dead!

Not sure where to get a new male. (I got these two from a gentleman who was moving to Ohio and wanted someone to try to get success from his fish- they were young and had just started the spawns when he left town.) We have a local fish nice place here in Houston that has some large angels, but Ií m not sure where they get them. Will talk to them.
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Old 01-20-2023, 02:32 AM   #11
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Dechlorinator makes more sense. Gotta love auto correct and typos

Th following link has information about culturing food for baby fish. About 2/3 the way down is a section called Emergency Fry Food. It tells you about boiled egg yolk and is what they make liquid fry foods from. It's just the boiled yolk from an egg pushed through something fine (handkerchief) into a small container of water. You shake the solution up and use an eye dropper to suck some out and squirt it by the babies. Do this when they start swimming.
https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...ml#post3578561

If she is bashing him, they aren't a compatible pair and are simply breeding together because they have no other choice. The best way to get a breeding pair is to have a group of males and females and let them pair off naturally. If the pr breeds successfully that is great, but if they have more than 6 failed attempts, separate them and try them with different partners.

I prefer to let the parents try and rear the eggs and young so it works with their natural instincts.
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Old 01-20-2023, 12:05 PM   #12
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One Question Andy—
I would probably have to move my adults to a 10 gallon to have them self breed, which seems a bit small for these 2. I know they love the freedom of the large tank but for them to take care of the next spawn, that would require moving them. Lots of dithers and catfish in their 75 gallon. I also don’t want to stress them out by moving them. What’s your experience on moving these guys and continuing to spawn? I’m worried she will injure him, too.
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Old 01-20-2023, 12:24 PM   #13
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Dechlorinator makes more sense. Gotta love auto correct and typos

Th following link has information about culturing food for baby fish. About 2/3 the way down is a section called Emergency Fry Food. It tells you about boiled egg yolk and is what they make liquid fry foods from. It's just the boiled yolk from an egg pushed through something fine (handkerchief) into a small container of water. You shake the solution up and use an eye dropper to suck some out and squirt it by the babies. Do this when they start swimming.
https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...ml#post3578561

If she is bashing him, they aren't a compatible pair and are simply breeding together because they have no other choice. The best way to get a breeding pair is to have a group of males and females and let them pair off naturally. If the pr breeds successfully that is great, but if they have more than 6 failed attempts, separate them and try them with different partners.

I prefer to let the parents try and rear the eggs and young so it works with their natural instincts.
Thanks! I will try those techniques.
Not sure what to do with these parents as I would have to move them to let them self tear, and I worry she would kill him in a smaller space. He hides from her oftenÖ..
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Old 01-20-2023, 12:36 PM   #14
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Not sure what to do with these parents as I would have to move them to let them self tear, and I worry she would kill him in a smaller space. He hides from her often…..
Is it warm enough to have an outdoor pond?
Maybe get an 8 foot diameter above ground aquaculture pond that is 3-4 foot high and put them in that with a heap of plants.
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Old 01-20-2023, 12:59 PM   #15
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One Question Andy—
I would probably have to move my adults to a 10 gallon to have them self breed, which seems a bit small for these 2. I know they love the freedom of the large tank but for them to take care of the next spawn, that would require moving them. Lots of dithers and catfish in their 75 gallon. I also don’t want to stress them out by moving them. What’s your experience on moving these guys and continuing to spawn? I’m worried she will injure him, too.
While I breed my pairs in 10 gals for the first few years, I don't let them parent raise in the 10s because it's just too small for larger spawns. With your spawns being between 300-500 eggs, I'd go with nothing smaller than a 29 gal tank so that the fry have room to roam while it's still easy enough to feed.
As for moving them, use 75% of the water they are in at the time to fill the new tank then fill with new water. This will be nothing more than a routine water change to them. There is the possibility that they will go off cycle for spawning but the chances are if you maintain the same routines, they will be back to breeding shortly.
If you don't have room for another tank of that size, they do make tank dividers so you could easily separate the 75 for the parents to try. The idea is that you really only need to see the fry become free swimming. Even if you sacrifice the spawn after seeing this, you'll know that the fry are not the problem, something you are doing when you move the eggs is the problem so you can address those things.
If you can't find a pre made divider, you can use eggcrate and window screening to make the divider so that the fry can't get past it.

Since your female is a rough one, I do recommend in either situation, that you make sure there are a few hiding spots for the male to get away from her. ( I use big flat pieces of shale or slate for this.) I've had a few of those. My latest crazy Zebra Lace female comes to mind. She'd beat the snot of any male I put in with her then spawn with them. She left me a few one eyed males. :^s (Good thing virility didn't depend on 2 eyes. ) Even in a 20 long, she would still fight with her males. The longer tank just gave me more room to place hides for him. While it would be nice if every pair was a lovey dovey pair, that's not always necessary to get fry. The "attraction quotient" doesn't seem to effect to outcome. I've gotten some great fish from arguing pairs. You just have to treat them a little differently.
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Old 01-21-2023, 08:19 AM   #16
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Is it warm enough to have an outdoor pond?
Maybe get an 8 foot diameter above ground aquaculture pond that is 3-4 foot high and put them in that with a heap of plants.
In the summer that would work. It freezes here.
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Old 01-21-2023, 08:27 AM   #17
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Question

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Originally Posted by Andy Sager View Post
While I breed my pairs in 10 gals for the first few years, I don't let them parent raise in the 10s because it's just too small for larger spawns. With your spawns being between 300-500 eggs, I'd go with nothing smaller than a 29 gal tank so that the fry have room to roam while it's still easy enough to feed.
As for moving them, use 75% of the water they are in at the time to fill the new tank then fill with new water. This will be nothing more than a routine water change to them. There is the possibility that they will go off cycle for spawning but the chances are if you maintain the same routines, they will be back to breeding shortly.
If you don't have room for another tank of that size, they do make tank dividers so you could easily separate the 75 for the parents to try. The idea is that you really only need to see the fry become free swimming. Even if you sacrifice the spawn after seeing this, you'll know that the fry are not the problem, something you are doing when you move the eggs is the problem so you can address those things.
If you can't find a pre made divider, you can use eggcrate and window screening to make the divider so that the fry can't get past it.

Since your female is a rough one, I do recommend in either situation, that you make sure there are a few hiding spots for the male to get away from her. ( I use big flat pieces of shale or slate for this.) I've had a few of those. My latest crazy Zebra Lace female comes to mind. She'd beat the snot of any male I put in with her then spawn with them. She left me a few one eyed males. :^s (Good thing virility didn't depend on 2 eyes. ) Even in a 20 long, she would still fight with her males. The longer tank just gave me more room to place hides for him. While it would be nice if every pair was a lovey dovey pair, that's not always necessary to get fry. The "attraction quotient" doesn't seem to effect to outcome. I've gotten some great fish from arguing pairs. You just have to treat them a little differently.
A divider sounds like the ticket for now. She is plumping up and we are at day 7 after last spawn so I will try to find a divider today. Window screening? Egg crate? You mean like an egg crate mattress?
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Old 01-21-2023, 08:36 AM   #18
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A divider sounds like the ticket for now. She is plumping up and we are at day 7 after last spawn so I will try to find a divider today. Window screening? Egg crate? You mean like an egg crate mattress?
Eggcrate ceiling tile. Light diffusers that drop into a suspended ceiling, popular in 1970s built office buildings.

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Old 01-21-2023, 07:06 PM   #19
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A divider sounds like the ticket for now. She is plumping up and we are at day 7 after last spawn so I will try to find a divider today. Window screening? Egg crate? You mean like an egg crate mattress?
Aiken has the picture of the eggcrate but it's usually found in the ceiling tile aisle of places like Lowes or Home Depot. There's a 1/4" and a 1/2" hole tile but either will do since you will need to use window/patio screening around it the keep anything from getting in or getting out. The only thing you want passing through the divider is water. Just make sure there is aeration on both sides of the divider and that the Angels are not on the side with any overflow filters or canister filter outflows. You won't need filtration on both sides since the water should be flowing into the 2 sections and the aeration should help keep the water moving.
The eggcrate is easy enough to saw with a hack saw, dremel tool or any fine toothed saw blade. The screening doesn't need to be mosquito or insect proof screening so that there is better water flow through it. Regular old window screening is fine.
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Old 01-21-2023, 07:07 PM   #20
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Eggcrate ceiling tile. Light diffusers that drop into a suspended ceiling, popular in 1970s built office buildings.

I ordered a divider. Meantime my 6 day olds look more robust than the previous fry done with the methylene blue. These were given only the hydrogen peroxide in low Concentration. I like how they look this time. Fingers crossed, but hopes not up too high. Started green water today.
Have brine shrimp cooking.
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