angelfish troubleshooting

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crazy4fids

Aquarium Advice Regular
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Messages
99
Location
Wisconsin
I have a bonded pair of angelfish who spawned in my 29 gallon community tank almost a year ago. They raised them to a size large enough for me to rehome. It was so rewarding to watch them spawn, protect and rear their eggs that we would like to experience it again. Unfortunately any successive spawns have been unsuccessful. I had moved them to my large 90 gallon community and now they are back in my 29 gallon with just 3 panda cories and 4 platies.
I have no idea what conditions made them spawn to begin with. They were originally my daughters. We gave her 3 juveniles for Christmas last year and they spawned in July. The were in a tank with a multitude of tetras and a couple of cories. The tank was pretty much neglected. The water level would get 1/2 way empty before my husband would add a bucket. The light was broken and the only light they got was from the window. The two paired off and spawned on a large piece of driftwood without notice. I didn't think too much of it because I have had angelfish pair off and spawn only to eat the eggs. This time I got wigglers!!
We fished the majority of the larger tetras out and rehomed the odd man out. We ended up with 14 babies to rehome.

All future spawns have ended with the eggs turning white and the parents eating them. They spawn approximately every 10 days. I have tried to replicate the same conditions. The only thing different now is I added in a sponge filter instead of the large HOB filter (I think we lost lots of babies with the HOB) and now they have live plants. They have spawned on a rock, on a piece of wood and now the HOB filter intake. pH is 7.5, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 10-20. After 24 hours the eggs start turning white. There is plenty of water circulation in the tank with the sponge filter and the HOB (which I plan on shutting off if I ever get wigglers again).
The only thing I can think is different is the amount of light which is now accommodating the plants (if that, it's a pretty weak light).
Any suggestions?
 
When trying to purposely breed Angels, I find a better hatch percentage when just using a sponge filter and no HOB, canister or external type filters. I have no proof they are the cause but it just seems that whenever I had these other filters on the tanks, the hatches sucked. My guess is the water movement was too much for proper fertilization?

The next thing I would do is remove all other fish. No need for any other fish in there to distract the fish from the "job at hand".
For a more in depth read on spawning Angelfish, I suggest you read the thread "Wigglers at last!!!" in this breeding forum. It's a long thread by both professional and hobbyist breeders with just about every piece of information you need to know about breeding and raising Angelfish.

Hope this helps (y)
 
I'm on post #135 of that thread! I have eggs today. If I don't get any success, I will fish out the plays and cories in between egg clutches. My sponge filter should be cycled in by now, so I guess it is safe to take off the hob!
 
I'm beginning to think the odd man out may have been the fertile one? I highly doubt it by watching these two rear that one batch of fry.
 
I'm beginning to think the odd man out may have been the fertile one? I highly doubt it by watching these two rear that one batch of fry.
While rare, trios do happen and it is possible that what you had was a pair of females that spawned together and the odd male that fertilized the eggs. This could explain why no successes after that time but I wouldn't be too quick to assume that. See what happens when you no longer have the HOB running, just the sponge filter. (y)
 
So earlier this week I pulled off the hob filter (after they ate the all the white eggs). I did a 75% water change, thoroughly vacuuming the gravel. I put in the piece of wood that they used on their first and only successful spawn. They also have a large flat vertical rock to use. I have a new sponge filter coming, the one that has been in there is loose on the tube and starting to decay. When I get the new sponge seasoned, I will then remove the gravel. The temp is a consistent 78 degrees.
I will continue to do weekly 30 percent water changes and feed them blood worms tull they spawn again.
Do you think I should get a regulator valve for the sponge filter? That way I can turn down the speed on the sponge when I see them spawning?
The problem I was having were no viable eggs.
Am I missing anything here?
 
I would always be using a gang valve of some type when using air operated items because 1, you need to be able to control the amount of air going to them and 2, if you don't release the extra air not being used, it creates back pressure on the diaphram of a vibrating air pump ( what most of us use) which causes it to break much sooner than it should. I have pumps so old that the companies that made them are out of business, lol that still work because of this little "trick".

There is no need to change the amount of airflow on a sponge filter when the fish spawn. Nothing is being removed from the water when using a sponge filter opposed to a HOB filter so no problems there. Set it right, then forget it. ;)

Make sure you vary the diet and not feed just the bloodworms. The fish do use the protein to produce the eggs and milt but too much protein and not enough roughage can cause constipation in the fish. Variety is the spice of life. ;)

Keep us posted (y)
 
Hey Andy!
My thoughts in turning down the air wasn't because I was concerned abput the filter removing anything, it was because I was thinking that less water movement would help big daddy milt to stay in the area of the eggs in steat of being moved away in a more turbulant water.
I'll be picking up a couple of gang valves today.
 
Hey Andy!
My thoughts in turning down the air wasn't because I was concerned abput the filter removing anything, it was because I was thinking that less water movement would help big daddy milt to stay in the area of the eggs in steat of being moved away in a more turbulant water.
I'll be picking up a couple of gang valves today.

Considering that some fish spawn in fast moving streams, that shouldn't be too much of an issue. :brows: My hypothesis is that it's the removal of sperm from the water too quickly via an HOB that decreases the fertilization rate. Obviously I am not taking water and counting sperm but I have had numerous instances of higher hatch success with a sponge filter over any HOB. I can only conclude that it's because the sponge filter is not a removing filter while a HOB is.

In today's hobby when spare or replacement parts are either hard to come by or non existent, why not set up your items properly so that they last longer? I have a buddy who owns a fish store and he often kids me that " No store will ever make any money off you if you don;t break your stuff or upgrade!! " I just tell him " Why upgrade when all my stuff still works? And I'm careful so I don;t break things. " ;) I won;t even tell you how old some of my tanks are. :ROFLMAO: ( here's a hint, most likely they are older than you are. :brows::D )


(y)
 
Any thoughts here?
I have had one successful batch of fry from this pair. The very first one. I'm beginning to think the third angel that we gave to a friend was the real sperm donor. The water parameters are most likely better than when they first spawned. No light, middle of summer, sporadic water changes, hob filter, full community tank. Now they have a sponge filter, 50 percent weekly water changes, and are the only ones in the tank! I give up!
 
Any thoughts here?
I have had one successful batch of fry from this pair. The very first one. I'm beginning to think the third angel that we gave to a friend was the real sperm donor. The water parameters are most likely better than when they first spawned. No light, middle of summer, sporadic water changes, hob filter, full community tank. Now they have a sponge filter, 50 percent weekly water changes, and are the only ones in the tank! I give up!

While it is a possibility you removed the wrong fish, there are some other possible issues:
1: are you trying to hatch these out yourself? If so, did you stop the bubbles to take the picture?

2: What are all the water parameters they were spawned in? ( Temp, PH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Hardness- GH )

3: if you moved the eggs, did you move them into 100% the water they were spawned in?
Let's start with these questions and go from there. (y)
 
While it is a possibility you removed the wrong fish, there are some other possible issues:
1: are you trying to hatch these out yourself? If so, did you stop the bubbles to take the picture? I am hoping to let them raise the fry again.

2: What are all the water parameters they were spawned in? ( Temp, PH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Hardness- GH )
Temp 78 degrees
pH 7.2
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate below 20 (it's at 20 right now and tomorrow is water change day-50%/week)
KH 250
GH 300

3: if you moved the eggs, did you move them into 100% the water they were spawned in? I have not moved them.
Let's start with these questions and go from there.
I have tried to replicate the exact conditions that the first successful spawn took place in. Like I said earlier, the only thing different is the tank was somewhat neglected as it was my 23 year old daughters tank/responsibility. My husband would top it off every few weeks and I was doing water changes maybe once/month.
Last week when I pulled out the HOB filter, I put the large piece of Malaysian driftwood back into it. Maybe it will bring the pH down some.
 
When I just went to retrieve a water sample, the eggs are all gone. They spawned yesterday afternoon and gone today. I did notice that the spawn was much smaller than the last spawn. Also, the eggs turned white much quicker this time.
 
At this point, it's looking like you pulled the wrong fish. :( If you want to know for sure, you would need to pull a spawn, put it in new water ( I'd use pure rainwater or distilled/purified water) and see if you can get one egg to hatch. If none of the eggs hatch that way either, it's almost a sure thing that either you have 2 females, your fish are too old OR at some point, something within the tank has sterilized the fish. Keep in mind that certain medications can cause sterilization.

Hope this helps (y)
 
Medications can cause sterilization? I did not know that. These guys are about 1.5 years old and have only been medicated with victoria green for ich.
I think I am going to see if I can get the other guy back. We actually gave him to a friend from church who also took a few more of the first juvenilles.
 
I am not familiar with that medication so I can't say. But as for age, they are for sure young enough to still be in prime breeding age. Good luck. (y)
 
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