Angelfish wiggles dying before absorbing yolk sacbe

[264Douglas]

I need some advice. The last three times my freshwater angelfish have spawned the eggs have hatched but the wigglers die from three to five days without absorbing yolk sac. I remove eggs from parents, put them into aquarium that is dosed with methlene blue to prevent fungus. Things go well for a few days. Eggs hatch, within a day or two fall to the bottom of tank and act normally. A day or two before they should swarm up they die while on bottom of tank. I have used different aquariums for each hatch. I even resealed the last tank and cleaned it thoroughly with acetone and alcohol. Same thing happened. Anybody have an idea about what the problem could be. I have spawned angelfish and other species for more than 40 years and never encountered this issue before. I have taken water out of the aquarium where the eggs were laid and the last time took fresh water directly from the tap. I even tried reverse osmossis water but the same thing happened each time. Any suggestions about what is going on and any suggested solutions to solve the problem. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Colin_T]

Hi and welcome to the forum

Have you tried leaving the eggs with the parents so they can look after them? baby angelfish usually do better when reared by their parents.

Do you have chlorine or chloramine in the tap water?
If you have chloramine, it usually leaves ammonia in the water after you dechlorinate it. This will kill fry very quickly.

Is there aeration in the hatching tanks?
The eggs need constant gentle water movement. The parents normally do this by fanning the eggs with their pectoral (side) fins. Lack of water movement can cause eggs & fry to die.

How big is the hatching container?
Small containers (less than 10 gallons) can have wide temperature fluctuations if they aren't heated, and the water quality can go off very fast in small tanks.

What is the water temperature of the breeding and hatching tanks?
26-28C is ideal.

The parents could be poor quality fish that produce poor quality gametes (eggs & sperm). Perhaps try swapping partners and see if you get better results.

The parents could be malnourished and that will cause them to produce poor quality gametes. I fed my brood stock 3-5 times a day with a variety of dry, frozen and live foods for at least 2 (preferably 4) weeks before breeding them. I do 75% water changes and gravel clean the substrate every day or every couple of days when feeding more often.

 

[264Douglas]

Colin, thanks for your reply.* I have raised thousands of Angelfish fry over the past 40 years or so that I have bred fish and had no problem.* The eggs were laid in a 120 gallon aquarium dedicated to angelfish only.* I have 9 adult angels in the tank. The tank contains two breeding pairs.* They are fed a variety of foods four times per day, consisting of frozen artemia, frozen blood worms, freeze dried mosquito larvae, freeze dried tubiflex worms, cichlid pellets, and live daphia twice per week.* I don't think nutrition is the issue.* I do a weekly water exchange of 25 to 30 percent. Generally, when the parents are left to hatch the eggs, they eat them before hatching.* Over the years I have had more success taking the eggs than leaving them with the parents..* I put the eggs in a 20 gallon hatching tank that I generally fill from the 120 gal tank the eggs were laid in.* I then add the appropriate amount of methlyne blue to the 20 gallon tank and place an airstone near the eggs.* The tank also contains a sponge filter and an eheim heater set at 80 degrees F, the same temperature the 120 gallon aquarium water is set at.**


I have had eggs from both spawning pair the last couple of weeks, about 8 days apart.* I put the first spawn in a 20 gallon tank set up as noted in the previous paragraph.* The eggs hatched and seemed to do fine the first two or three days.* I then noticed they were not as active as they had been and within the next 48 hours all had died before the yolk sac was absorbed.* Two or three days after the spawn died the second pair laid eggs.* I took those eggs and put them in a different 20 gallon tank that I had just resealed and cleaned thoroughly with acetone and rubbing alcohol.* This time, instead of using water from the 120 gallon spawning tank, I used tap water to fill the tank, added water conditioner, brought the water up to 80 degrees F and took the eggs.* Again, the eggs hatched with the same result.* The wigglers seemed fine for two or three days but seem to be dying today.* I am not sure what the problem is.* I don't think it is ammonia or chloramine.* I suspect there is some kind of bacteria, virus, or protozoan in the water attacking the wigglers.* I have always been able to hatch eggs with methylene blue using the method noted in the first paragraph without problem.* One possible issue I can think of is the town I live in merged its water company with a big city company about two years ago.* It is possible that the city of Louisville is putting something in its water that is different.* However, other fish I keep have bred without issue.* I have had German Blue Rams breed and raised the fry to adulthood in the water.* I now have shell dwelling multis breeding in the water and have apistogamma borelli ready to spawn.* It is possible that the angelfish I have have weak genes.* I raised all the angels I have from fry.* In fact, the 9 angels in the tank were all that survived from the last spawn I raised.* Most of the wigglers from that spawn two years ago died after hatching.* That was the first time I encountered the problem. I then stopped spawning the angels an turned to other fish.. The issue could possibly be a genetic problem passed from parents to fry.


The first spawning pair laid eggs yesterday.* I took them and instead of placing them in an aquarium, put the eggs in a one gallon jar to hatch that was cleaned very well.* I filled the jar with tap water,* added water conditioner and methylene blue to the jar, an airstone, and floated it in a 20 gallon tank to keep the temp at 80 F.* I will see if this makes a difference.


Again, thanks for your reply.* I hope I can figure this out.* I might try purchasing six more angelfish from another breeder to see if the same thing happens.* An aquarist did a you tube video three years ago saying he had the same issue and solved it by adding an antiprotozan medication to the hatching tank.* However, I could not understand the name of the medication he said he used.

 

[Andy Sager]

I need some advice. The last three times my freshwater angelfish have spawned the eggs have hatched but the wigglers die from three to five days without absorbing yolk sac. I remove eggs from parents, put them into aquarium that is dosed with methlene blue to prevent fungus. Things go well for a few days. Eggs hatch, within a day or two fall to the bottom of tank and act normally. A day or two before they should swarm up they die while on bottom of tank. I have used different aquariums for each hatch. I even resealed the last tank and cleaned it thoroughly with acetone and alcohol. Same thing happened. Anybody have an idea about what the problem could be. I have spawned angelfish and other species for more than 40 years and never encountered this issue before. I have taken water out of the aquarium where the eggs were laid and the last time took fresh water directly from the tap. I even tried reverse osmossis water but the same thing happened each time. Any suggestions about what is going on and any suggested solutions to solve the problem. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

From one old timer to another I can tell you that the Angelfish you breed today are not like the Angelfish we used to breed 40,30 or 20 years ago. There has been a lot of genetic manipulation over the years that having poor genetic fish are a real possibility. You can read some of the trials and tribulations I went through with my last Angelfish hatchery here: https://www.aquariumadvice.com/foru...-a-hatchery-and-everything-angels-324616.html

You need to work backwards almost to figure out which is the cause. Start with what variety of Angels are you breeding? How old are the fish you are breeding? Are the fish related to each other?

From there, at what stage are you removing the methylene blue? Have you tried not using anything for fungus and just letting the eggs hatch?

Are you testing for ammonia in the egg tank after they hatch? Are you breeding in a fish room or just a random tank in the house?

Let's start with these questions and can go from there.

For what it's worth, I know it's very frustrating when what used to work doesn't. I've been breeding fish for over 50 years with Angels being my specialty so I feel your frustration. My last hatchery was the most challenging for me because a lot of my old tricks didn't work anymore. Some of it was the fish themselves.

 

[264Douglas]

I suspect you are correct, especially about fish genetics. I never had an issue until about two years ago. I have raised thousands of Angelfish successfully over the years. I no longer sell the fish but wanted to raise more for my show tank. The fish I have are about two years old. They are related to each other. They are the last survivors of the last spawn I raised. I had two pair of Angels spawn then. They came from a gold and silver angel that paired off. I got a mixture of gold, silver, and a mixture of both. Only a few from each spawn survived, 9 silver and 8 or so gold. The gold live about a year or so and died, one by one without any apparent cause. The fish would appear fine one day and be dead the next.. The silvers, that were in the same tank with the gold (a 120 gallon tank) all lived and are still alive. They are the fish that are spawning now. I have a feeling that genetics is the problem but am not completely sure. I may try to get more fish from another breeder to see if I can get a successful spawn. I really do not want an entire spawn but would like a few to put into my show tank in my den. I got another spawn yesterday and will see what I can do with them. If this one does not survive I may try the next one with something other than methylene blue as an anti fungal. Do you have any suggestions about another antifungal that might work in lieu on methylebe blue?

I am breeding in a dedicated fish room that contains two 125 gallon tanks, one 120 gallon tank (the angelfish tank), one 75 gallon tank, four 20 gallon tanks, and four ten gallon tanks. I have downsized over the years due to age and health issues. Once I had more than 40 tanks of all sizes running but keeping them clean became too much work as I aged so I stopped selling to pet shop and just raise for my own needs now. I am currently breeding multi facets (shell dwellers). A few years ago I bred other apistogamma species and German Blue Rams along with brown Julie cichlids without problem. The angels are the real issue for the past two years or so. I don't need many, just enough to stock my den show tank. The problem may indeed be genetics.

I usually don't begin doing water exchanges to remove the methylene blue in the 20 gallon hatching and rearing tanks until the fry become free swimming. I will try removing it earlier to see if that might help. I normally don't test for ammonia in the hatching tank as I have never had an issue before as I use sponge filters in the fry tank but will test to see what the ammonia level is.

The thing that concerns me is that the last two spawns that perished came from two different pair of agelfish, although both themselves came from the last two spawns I tried to raise from two years ago.

 

[264Douglas]

A guy posted a you tube video about three years ago with a similar problem. He said he put an anti--protozian medication in his hatching tank that solved the problem but I could not understand what medication he used in the video. I am going to try hatching yesterday's spawn in a gallon jar to see what happens.

 

[Andy Sager]

I see a couple of potential issues:
There has been some evidence that methylene blue can effect the swim bladder of fish fry so I would definitely be removing it the day before the eggs should hatch. I'd even do it earlier if there are few dead eggs in the spawn. I switched to using hydrogen peroxide at a rate of 1 ml/ gallon instead of M. blue. When I was having issues in my hatchery, I tried Nitrofurazone as well with no bad effects on the eggs ( although my issue did not resolve no matter what I used.)

If you look at the fish in my Avatar, he was bred with a gold Marble female ( not related to him) and amongst the spawn were a color labeled "Barred Marble". I kept 6 of these fish of which some were super veils, regular veils and straight tails. Unfortunately this male died before the fry matured but I bred brothers to sisters and sons to the Mother and not once did I get a swimming fry. My hatchery issue turned out to be ammonia in the air which was being put into the fry water via the air compressor so when this was discovered, I tried hatching the eggs out in another place where I had success before but still no swimming fry. So I am sure this was a genetics thing with this entire line, similar to breeding a Zebra to a Zebra. ( I started having the ammonia issue before I tried them with non related fish. )

I hatch my eggs with just an air stone since I am not looking to create any nitrate in the egg tank. ( That and M. Blue kills off the bacteria bed in the filter. ) I don't usually add a sponge filter until the fry are free swimming and I'm feeding them. (Here's a diagram of my hatching method: https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/members/41382-albums9862-picture40350.html )

I do know that some breeders use formalin with the M. Blue to be an all around sanitizer but I haven't found that to be all that necessary.

Since you have a new spawn, I'd try with using the peroxide in the jar with just an air stone. Start with clean water. If your tap has chloramine, try using spring water from the grocery store instead. Make sure you keep testing for ammonia ( just in case) and see if that changes anything.

 

[Colin_T]

The reason cichlids like angelfish eat their first few batches of eggs and young is due to being raised artificially without their parents. The baby fish need to learn from their parents and if they have no contact with the adults during the first month of their life, they don't learn social skills, language or parental care. When these young fish grow up, it takes them a number of attempts to work out how to look after their eggs and young and not eat them as soon as they are laid. If a pair continues to eat eggs and young after 6 batches, then separate the prs and try them with other partners.

Imagine if people didn't know how to deal with a pregnant woman. 18 year old couple, first baby, nobody taught them about prenatal care and no doctors or midwives around. They would be thinking "crap, what do we do?. . . Ahhh there's blood" freaking out, freaking out, freaking out. Fish need to learn just like people do. If they are kept with the parents for at least the first month they usually make better parents.

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I would do bigger water changes (75%) and complete gravel cleans on the adult's tank. Do this for a few months and see if it makes any difference. It will dilute any bacteria, fungus or protozoa that might be in the water. It might not make any difference but is worth a try.

If you used tap water for a batch of eggs, it won't be protozoa but could be fungus or bacteria. However, it's unlikely to be those either in dechlorinated tap water.

Have you changed the type of Methylene Blue you use?
Some companies are mixing Methylene Blue with other chemicals and it could be contributing to the issue. Perhaps try hatching some eggs without any Methylene Blue in the water.

Most medications that treat protozoan infections contain Malachite Green (aka Victoria Green). This stuff is carcinogenic and can kill fry. They usually have a few other preservatives in the medication too and most of them can kill baby fish.

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Have you bred any ram cichlids since your water supply was mixed with the other supply?

I would contact the water company (via telephone or website) and get a list of what is in the water. Post it here and we can go through it to see if there is anything bad in it.

Many years ago I was breeding New Guinea rainbowfish, which are heavily inbred here due to lack of genetics. I was getting thousands of eggs but the fry were all dying within minutes of hatching. I might get a few survive but the majority died within 24 hours of hatching. I tested the water and it was perfect. I used clean tanks and clean tap water and it continued. The problem went on for years and I got fed up with it. I ended up getting some eggs sent over from the other side of the country and the parent fish were wild caught so I figured if it was a genetic issue, that should fix the problem. It didn't.

Further investigation found that the water company had been increasing the dose of chlorine to more than 3 times the safe legal level. So even though I was dechlorinating the water, it still had more than double the safe dose of chlorine in. When I increased the dechlorinator and left the water for a week, I still lost most of the fry when they hatched. More investigations found a substance that was in the water that was not listed on the water company's list of what is in the water. When we left the water to evaporate from containers, it left a hard white substance that set like concrete. It wasn't calcium or anything that I could test for. I never found out what it was and the water company and state government (who run the water company) denied adding anything. But nobody could identify this stuff. I changed water supply and everything improved. So there could be something that is added to your water supply that is causing this. You might need to try reverse osmosis or distilled water and see if it helps. If you have friends out of town and they have a different water supply, perhaps get a few hundred litres of water from them and see if that helps.

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Most Apistogramma cichlids are nowhere near as inbred as angelfish. In fact a lot of Apistogrammas have quite good genetics because companies are regularly collecting new varieties to mix up with the current ones. The German breeders also like to deal with wild caught fish or fish that aren't too messed up from inbreeding. The Asian breeders are more likely to supply inbred and genetically messed up fish. Angelfish on the other hand have been inbred for over 50 years and are as messed up as guppies. Guppy breeders are now using wild caught guppies and Endler's livebearers to cross with guppies in an attempt to reduce the genetic weakness in them.

The fish you are breeding are related (brothers and sisters) and it's highly likely their parents were related. This could have some impact on the offspring. There's a reason why people aren't allowed to marry and breed with closely related family members, it's to stop inbreeding and passing on genetic defects. If you can get some unrelated fish, try breeding them with your current stock and see if it helps.

 

[Andy Sager]

We have another member (ScalareReb) who was having the same issue with his Angel fry while using M. Blue. I just read that he switched to H. Peroxide and a jar, consistent 82 temperature and got his first free swimming fry.
Makes me wonder if the concentration of M. Blue being sold these days is more concentrated than before.

 

[Colin_T]

We have another member (ScalareReb) who was having the same issue with his Angel fry while using M. Blue. I just read that he switched to H. Peroxide and a jar, consistent 82 temperature and got his first free swimming fry.
Makes me wonder if the concentration of M. Blue being sold these days is more concentrated than before.

It could also be contamination in the Methylene Blue. Manufacturers aren't always the most honest and sometimes mix other things to reduce the cost.

Trying different brands of Methylene Blue or not using it at all should help rule out Methylene Blue as the problem.

 

[264Douglas]

The m. Blue concentration could possibly be an issue. I just purchased a new bottle of the stuff because what I had was old. I am going to try the hydrogen peroxide the next spawn I get.

 

[264Douglas]

The m. Blue could be the issue. I bought a new bottle of tge stuff because what I had was old. The new bottle was a different brand. The Rams were hatched and raised in the same water as were the shellies and other fish I have raised. You are right in that the fish are brothers and sisters and this might be the problem. I have had angelfish raise spawns before but found it to be a hit or miss proposition. The last pair I had that were allowed to raise fry would raise one out of about every five or six spawns. They would eat most of the eggs. However, unless I siphoned the babies out, they always ate them all by the third or fourth day they were free swimming and eating baby brine shrimp.

 

[264Douglas]

The water company sends out a brochure every year telling customers what is in the water. The next time one comes in tge mail I will post it here for a look.

 

[Andy Sager]

The m. Blue concentration could possibly be an issue. I just purchased a new bottle of the stuff because what I had was old. I am going to try the hydrogen peroxide the next spawn I get.

what concentration is the M. blue? Hopefully it's not stronger than 2.3% If it is stronger, there may be your culprit.

 

[264Douglas]

The bottle does not say what concentration the m. Blue is. It is the Kordon brand. The directions say use 10 drops per gallon to produce a 3ppm concentration in aquarium.

 

[Colin_T]

The bottle does not say what concentration the m. Blue is. It is the Kordon brand. The directions say use 10 drops per gallon to produce a 3ppm concentration in aquarium.

try it at half strength (5 drops per gallon).

 

[Andy Sager]

The bottle does not say what concentration the m. Blue is. It is the Kordon brand. The directions say use 10 drops per gallon to produce a 3ppm concentration in aquarium.

OK. Kordon says it's a 2.303% concentration so not too high. I'd still try the H Peroxide on the next spawn.

 

[264Douglas]

More about Angelfish Spawning Issue

I put the last batch of eggs in a gallon jar floating in a 20 gallon aquarium in which the water was kept at 80 degrees F. The eggs hatched into wigglers using m. blue. The wigglers survived eight days but were never able to absorb yolk sac. The yolk sac never decreased in size and on day 6 the wigglers began to die. By day 8 all had died. None became free swimming. Any idea what could be the problem? The only thing I can think of that could xause thus issue would be a genetic deficiency. This seems to be the same issue with all three batches of eggs from two different spawning pair.

 

[Andy Sager]

I put the last batch of eggs in a gallon jar floating in a 20 gallon aquarium in which the water was kept at 80 degrees F. The eggs hatched into wigglers using m. blue. The wigglers survived eight days but were never able to absorb yolk sac. The yolk sac never decreased in size and on day 6 the wigglers began to die. By day 8 all had died. None became free swimming. Any idea what could be the problem? The only thing I can think of that could xause thus issue would be a genetic deficiency. This seems to be the same issue with all three batches of eggs from two different spawning pair.

A few other members have been having issues with Angelfish fry developing when using methylene blue so I would suggest doing one more spawn either not using anything for fungus prevention or using hydrogen peroxide at a rate of 5 ml / gal. (FYI, when I used Peroxide, I didn't start using it until I had confirmed white/dead eggs and only used it when there were a lot of dead eggs. ) If this doesn't make a difference and you are using new clean water to hatch the eggs in, I would have to think it's a genetic issue but since it's happening with 2 pairs, hopefully not closely related fish, that leans towards hatching methods as the cause.

Keep us posted.

 

[Colin_T]

I'm amazed the yolk sac didn't shrink or get used up during that time (6 days after hatching). That's really bizarre and would suggest something is preventing the fry from using the yolk. It could be genetic or something in the water.

Try different water or get a reverse osmosis unit to make pure water. If there's no improvement, try separating the prs and adding new unrelated fish to make new prs. Drop the Methylene Blue.