Breeder Tank Setup?!?!?!!?

[FishCrazyBenBOMB]

Hey guys, I was going to start breeding some GBR's sometime in January/Febuary. I was going to create my 20 Gallon long into a breeder tank.

Here are my questions.

1. Should I have a empty bottom or sand bottom?
2. Should I have a power filter with a filter sock over the thing so fry don't get sucked up or a sponge filter.
3. Should I have a background or no? If so what color?
4. Should I have any decor. in there for hiding or nothing?
5. What should I use in there for the GBRs to lay their eggs on?


Please respond to the questions in order

THANK YOU!!

[Zagz]

Do you plan on keeping the parents in with the babies? If so I would go planted with sand.
I prefer a dark blue or black background myself.
The plants will provide hiding spots.
Some rocks for their eggs would be good. Mine always seem to dig a pit and lay their eggs in there anyway, no matter what kind of rocks I add.

[bs6749]

For your plan I'd suggest the first thing in that tank be a tank divider if you are going to house 2 pairs of rams. Secondly, there should be no other fish in the tank, just the rams. Third, I'd get 2 pairs all from one source and not try to mix with any that you might have already. That way the rams wil be the same age and of the same quality.
Now onto your questions.

1. Bare bottom
2. Two sponge filters, one on each side of the divider with both of them powered by the same air pump. I like the Tetra Whisper 20's
3. Background doesn't really matter with rams. If it were something like discus that you were trying to bree you might want 3 sides of the tank to be lighter so the fry can find the parents more easily. This is because discus parents darken when spawning and the fry attach themselves to the parents to feed for the first week or so.
4. I'd go with plastic plants or some low light live plants like anubias and jave moss. Live plants can provide a home for infusoria which the fry can feed off of eventually. Live plants also remove harmful wastes from the water.
5. You don't need anything, the rams will spawn on the glass if they can't find anything else. However, I strongly suggest you find some small, flat pieces of slate that you know will fit into a mason jar or similar. This is because you will most likely have to pull the eggs or parent because they will most likely eat the eggs. Having some slate encourages them to lay on that and it make it much easier for you to transfer the eggs to a jar. A 1/2 gallon jar would be perfect.

[FishCrazyBenBOMB]

Originally Posted by Zagz

Do you plan on keeping the parents in with the babies? If so I would go planted with sand.
I prefer a dark blue or black background myself.
The plants will provide hiding spots.
Some rocks for their eggs would be good. Mine always seem to dig a pit and lay their eggs in there anyway, no matter what kind of rocks I add.

Originally Posted by bs6749

For your plan I'd suggest the first thing in that tank be a tank divider if you are going to house 2 pairs of rams. Secondly, there should be no other fish in the tank, just the rams. Third, I'd get 2 pairs all from one source and not try to mix with any that you might have already. That way the rams wil be the same age and of the same quality.
Now onto your questions.

1. Bare bottom
2. Two sponge filters, one on each side of the divider with both of them powered by the same air pump. I like the Tetra Whisper 20's
3. Background doesn't really matter with rams. If it were something like discus that you were trying to bree you might want 3 sides of the tank to be lighter so the fry can find the parents more easily. This is because discus parents darken when spawning and the fry attach themselves to the parents to feed for the first week or so.
4. I'd go with plastic plants or some low light live plants like anubias and jave moss. Live plants can provide a home for infusoria which the fry can feed off of eventually. Live plants also remove harmful wastes from the water.
5. You don't need anything, the rams will spawn on the glass if they can't find anything else. However, I strongly suggest you find some small, flat pieces of slate that you know will fit into a mason jar or similar. This is because you will most likely have to pull the eggs or parent because they will most likely eat the eggs. Having some slate encourages them to lay on that and it make it much easier for you to transfer the eggs to a jar. A 1/2 gallon jar would be perfect.

Thanks guys.

Well from both of those responses here is my plan.

I will do a sand bottom and get a divider so I can breed 2 pairs. I will be removing the females as soon as I see eggs on both sides, after the fry have hatched I will then remove the males and grow the fry in the 20 gallon. I will have some slate and broken pots for egg laying places if they don't do the pit deal. I will plant some java moss like grass so just incase I don't remove the males in time some of the fry will be safe. I will mostly be adding a cloth black background. I will also be using two small sponge filters on each side for filtering. The will be ran of my Whisper 20 Air Pump.

Thanks guys!

[bs6749]

I strongly suggest that you don't put sand in the breeding tank for several reasons.

First, it "encourages" them to dig in the sand and lay the eggs. If this is done it will be nearly impossible to remove the eggs from the tank, which is what I suggest you do anyway.

Second, if a flat piece of slate or a broken pot is available they will lay on that nearly all of the time, making it MUCH easier for you to remove the eggs. You could even put an anubias in the tank weighted down with some lead weights and they may spawn on those broad leaves as mine did for me several times. This is a bit more difficult to remove however because you will have to clip the leaf off at the start near the node of the plant and then you will have to wrap a lead weight on the bottom of the stem so that the leaf stands upright when you remove the eggs.

Thirdly, it's more difficult to clean a tank with sand and more difficult to see how dirty it actually is and you will want to keep the water quality excellent for the fry.

I keep saying that you will want to move the eggs to a 1/2g jar and this is for several reasons.

First of all, raising fry in a tank that large is never a good idea. You will want to make sure the tank is clean and you will need to do regular water changes starting at about 10 days after they hatch. In a 29g you are going to have to change out much more water than you would in a 1/2g jar.

Secondly, you can keep the food : water ratio very high in a 1/2g jar compared to a 29g tank. You will have to feed more in a 29g for the fry to sufficiently find food and survive. This means there will be more waste which will foul the water in no time. You have to be careful putting food in a 1/2g jar since the volume is so small and it'd be easy to overfeed but you could easily do 2 water changes per day and be set.

I don't think you will want to move the pairs either. It's much easier to keep them in he same breeding setup and do several water changes to trigger them to spawn. I'd avoid moving them constantly. This also means that you will have to have another tank for them to stay when they aren't in the 29g. You are going to have to raise the fry in a 1/2g jar until they are large enough to move to a 10g at largest. From there you will want to grow them out in a 10g tank until they are ready to be moved into a 29g tank. From that 29g tank you will be able to grow them out until they are large enough to sell. So you are going to need two 29's, a 10g, and a 1/2g jar if you want to continuously have fry for sale.

[FishCrazyBenBOMB]

Originally Posted by bs6749

I strongly suggest that you don't put sand in the breeding tank for several reasons.

First, it "encourages" them to dig in the sand and lay the eggs. If this is done it will be nearly impossible to remove the eggs from the tank, which is what I suggest you do anyway.

Second, if a flat piece of slate or a broken pot is available they will lay on that nearly all of the time, making it MUCH easier for you to remove the eggs. You could even put an anubias in the tank weighted down with some lead weights and they may spawn on those broad leaves as mine did for me several times. This is a bit more difficult to remove however because you will have to clip the leaf off at the start near the node of the plant and then you will have to wrap a lead weight on the bottom of the stem so that the leaf stands upright when you remove the eggs.

Thirdly, it's more difficult to clean a tank with sand and more difficult to see how dirty it actually is and you will want to keep the water quality excellent for the fry.

I keep saying that you will want to move the eggs to a 1/2g jar and this is for several reasons.

First of all, raising fry in a tank that large is never a good idea. You will want to make sure the tank is clean and you will need to do regular water changes starting at about 10 days after they hatch. In a 29g you are going to have to change out much more water than you would in a 1/2g jar.

Secondly, you can keep the food : water ratio very high in a 1/2g jar compared to a 29g tank. You will have to feed more in a 29g for the fry to sufficiently find food and survive. This means there will be more waste which will foul the water in no time. You have to be careful putting food in a 1/2g jar since the volume is so small and it'd be easy to overfeed but you could easily do 2 water changes per day and be set.

I don't think you will want to move the pairs either. It's much easier to keep them in he same breeding setup and do several water changes to trigger them to spawn. I'd avoid moving them constantly. This also means that you will have to have another tank for them to stay when they aren't in the 29g. You are going to have to raise the fry in a 1/2g jar until they are large enough to move to a 10g at largest. From there you will want to grow them out in a 10g tank until they are ready to be moved into a 29g tank. From that 29g tank you will be able to grow them out until they are large enough to sell. So you are going to need two 29's, a 10g, and a 1/2g jar if you want to continuously have fry for sale.

Ok man I will take your advice but I got a couple questions for you.

1. Can I use a breeder trap that I used for my mollies instead of a jar?
2. If not where can I get a 1/2 Gallon jar?
3. Do I need a heater in the jar?
4. Can I just feed them this powder stuff I got for my molly fry?
5. You got any thing else to tell me that will help me out?

[bs6749]

1. No, don't use a trap. Those still have holes/slits in the sides that the wigglers will find and escape, at least the ones I'm faimliar with would allow fry to escape. That volume is too small anyway.

2. What I use is actually a pickle jar that someone had laying around at work. It had the WalMart sticker on the lid and it was like $3 for a 1/2g jar of pickles. Eat the pickles and you have yourelf a new tank LOL.

3. Needing a heater depends on how warm you are able to keep the tank. You will want the water no less than 78 degrees and will want to avoid an excess of 84. If you can keep the jar CONSTANT with ambient room temps then you don't need a heater.

4. They will use their yolk sacs up in about 5 days after they hatch. After that they will go free swimming in search of food. When you see most of them free swimming it's time to add some food. The powder stuff may work and you could probably use extremely fine crushed up flake food. I'd use an egg yolk solution. Boil an egg, put the yolk into a blender with about 12-16oz of water and liquify the crap out of it. You can also add in some fish vitamins if you'd like when you mix. Put the solution into a container and you can keep it for several weeks. Feed a little bit up to 5 times per day until they are large enough to move over to baby brine shrimp or cyclops. I'm going to be feeding mind frozen cyclops as they provide phenominal growth rates.

[FishCrazyBenBOMB]

Originally Posted by bs6749

1. No, don't use a trap. Those still have holes/slits in the sides that the wigglers will find and escape, at least the ones I'm faimliar with would allow fry to escape. That volume is too small anyway.

2. What I use is actually a pickle jar that someone had laying around at work. It had the WalMart sticker on the lid and it was like $3 for a 1/2g jar of pickles. Eat the pickles and you have yourelf a new tank LOL.

3. Needing a heater depends on how warm you are able to keep the tank. You will want the water no less than 78 degrees and will want to avoid an excess of 84. If you can keep the jar CONSTANT with ambient room temps then you don't need a heater.

4. They will use their yolk sacs up in about 5 days after they hatch. After that they will go free swimming in search of food. When you see most of them free swimming it's time to add some food. The powder stuff may work and you could probably use extremely fine crushed up flake food. I'd use an egg yolk solution. Boil an egg, put the yolk into a blender with about 12-16oz of water and liquify the crap out of it. You can also add in some fish vitamins if you'd like when you mix. Put the solution into a container and you can keep it for several weeks. Feed a little bit up to 5 times per day until they are large enough to move over to baby brine shrimp or cyclops. I'm going to be feeding mind frozen cyclops as they provide phenominal growth rates.

Well my house is always cold so I will buy one of those small pad heaters.

When I do that egg yolk thing I could always add freeze dry bloodworms and algae wafers and stuff like that so they get an over all good nutriention. I don't do that live brine shrimp and stuff. I should but my fish are fine with the food I give em.

Also when I do water changes in the jar, how much should I do and how often?

Also should I add air to the jar?

[bs6749]

You will want to add an airstone to the jar from the point that you introduce the eggs until the point when they go free swimming. You may be able to remove the airstone completely or you may want to lower the output so that oxygen is still getting into the water column.

I'd do a water change at least once a day when you start feeding. You can use an air hose to change out the water. You can also use an airhose to add the water back into the tank.

I recommend you get a hang on style heater. BigAl's has good cheap ones that are great for those setups.

I'd avoid adding anything to the egg yolk mixture as it may be too large and all it is going to do is foul the water if the fish don't eat it.

[FishCrazyBenBOMB]

Originally Posted by bs6749

You will want to add an airstone to the jar from the point that you introduce the eggs until the point when they go free swimming. You may be able to remove the airstone completely or you may want to lower the output so that oxygen is still getting into the water column.

I'd do a water change at least once a day when you start feeding. You can use an air hose to change out the water. You can also use an airhose to add the water back into the tank.

I recommend you get a hang on style heater. BigAl's has good cheap ones that are great for those setups.

I'd avoid adding anything to the egg yolk mixture as it may be too large and all it is going to do is foul the water if the fish don't eat it.

Well I was going to get one of the pad ones because i'm ordering a bunch of new stuff for my tanks (you can see the list in the general section of freshwater) so I was all going to order if from the same place because it is cheap and less cost for shipping. It cost more to order from a bunch of places.

Also I thought you send blend the stuff so it would all be liquidified so nothing would be too big.

[bs6749]

Where are you ordering all of your stuff? I'd price around. I know that BigAl's has free shipping on orders over $75 and generally they are the cheapest around. If you find a cheaper price they will match it and beat it by 5 or 10%...I forget which but they've matched many things for me before with absolutely no problem.

[FishCrazyBenBOMB]

I'm ordering from www.thatfishplace.com

[bs6749]

Check out BigAl's you won't be disappointed if you do. I'm positive they are cheaper than the other places.

[FishCrazyBenBOMB]

Originally Posted by bs6749

Check out BigAl's you won't be disappointed if you do. I'm positive they are cheaper than the other places.

Well they have almost everything the same and some is cheaper and some is more but the only thing they dont have are the two fixtures I picked out on www.thatfishplace.com

I give you a link, they are nice and slick fixtures that have extendable arms on the side to fit any tank, they look great.

Here is the link.

If you can find something just as good or better for that same price. Tell me so.

[bs6749]

Is that fixture intended for plants or for a breeding setup? It's not ideal for plants and for $2 more you could get one that IS ideal for plants. If you are looking for a light for a breeding setup you could find something for more like $10.

[FishCrazyBenBOMB]

Originally Posted by bs6749

Is that fixture intended for plants or for a breeding setup? It's not ideal for plants and for $2 more you could get one that IS ideal for plants. If you are looking for a light for a breeding setup you could find something for more like $10.

The light is only going to be to grow java moss and that's the light fixture I want. I don't care for the money deal. I have a money limit of 250 and i'll spend it how I like. lol

[bs6749]

That's fine, you can spend your money as you wish. Just trying to make you see that you could probably get your GBR's and enough shrimp to start a colony with the savings by making "smarter purchases".

[FishCrazyBenBOMB]

Originally Posted by bs6749

That's fine, you can spend your money as you wish. Just trying to make you see that you could probably get your GBR's and enough shrimp to start a colony with the savings by making "smarter purchases".

Even if I switch to lower cost stuff thats still not enough money for 8 adult RCS and 4 adult GBR's with shipping and such.

[bs6749]

If you'd listen to me and cut back on the things that you don't "need" such as the $35 light, an additional $10 you could save on the heater, $5+ on a different timer, save $4 on the same sponge filters at BigAl's, and $26 for the brine shrimp kit and eggs you'd see that you have a SUBSTANTIAL savings. The way I add it up it comes out to $80 in savings.
That'd be enough to give you FOUR (instead of THREE) GBR's, TWELVE adult RCS (instead of EIGHT) and you'd still have $10 left in your pocket AFTER shipping. That'd be enough to pay for your tank divider and a piece of slate that you could break some pieces off of for spawning sites. Note, I didn't even figure in the price match that BigAl's does, I was just going by what you could take off the list since you wouldn't need it.

[FishCrazyBenBOMB]

Originally Posted by bs6749

If you'd listen to me and cut back on the things that you don't "need" such as the $35 light, an additional $10 you could save on the heater, $5+ on a different timer, save $4 on the same sponge filters at BigAl's, and $26 for the brine shrimp kit and eggs you'd see that you have a SUBSTANTIAL savings. The way I add it up it comes out to $80 in savings.
That'd be enough to give you FOUR (instead of THREE) GBR's, TWELVE adult RCS (instead of EIGHT) and you'd still have $10 left in your pocket AFTER shipping. That'd be enough to pay for your tank divider and a piece of slate that you could break some pieces off of for spawning sites. Note, I didn't even figure in the price match that BigAl's does, I was just going by what you could take off the list since you wouldn't need it.

Well lets just carry this conversation in this thread instead of two different ones like we have been doing lol.

Ok here is my new list.

-Freshwater Master Test Kit ($17.89)
-Freeze Dried Bloodworms 1 oz. ($6.69)
-Aqualight Light Fixture Fluorescent T-5 Lamp 10,000k 18W 30 in. ($34.99)
-Aqualight Light Fixture Fluorescent T-5 Lamp 10,000k 14W 24 in. ($31.99)
-Tank Divider 15 & 20 Gallon ($7.99)
-Lok-Tite Brass Gang Valve 5 outlets ($8.99)
-Hydro I Sponge Filter ($7.99)
-Hydro I Sponge Filter ($7.99)
-Hydro I Sponge Filter ($7.99)
-Hydro I Sponge Filter ($7.99)
-Aircore Sand Airstone 1 in. 4pk ($1.39)
-THEO Heater 50W UL Listed ($14.29)
-THEO Heater 25W UL Listed ($13.19)
-Quick Cure 4 oz. ($3.79)
-Brine Shrimp Eggs 0.21 oz. ($3.29)
-Brine Shrimp Eggs 0.21 oz. ($3.29)
-Brine Shrimp Eggs 0.21 oz. ($3.29)

Total: $183.08