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Old 12-29-2013, 09:09 AM   #21
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Andy ive done the same froming learning from you. Just put them in a m blue 80 degree tank and wait. Except my latest batch only took 2days as wigglers and 3-4 after that for free swimmers and havent ever had such strong fry in my life.
That's about the time frame I was used to but many fish now (including my current ones) are taking about a week to go from "wiggler" to free swimming. I've had this confirmed by a few people not on this site as well as Karay and Bob. I guess it's the "new" Angelfish genetics. In your case, maybe your parents have a lot of "old school" wild blood in them to give you that speed Just make a note of the times so that you can be prepared with fry food when they start swimming. It should be the same every time afterwards.
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Old 12-29-2013, 09:11 AM   #22
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Lol, my bf says I'm a "mermaid". If I could jump into their tank...I prolly would
I wouldn't try that, you might hurt them.
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Old 12-29-2013, 03:00 PM   #23
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I mark it on my phone calender and have the breeding from the last three months. I was letting them try to raise the eggs themselves but the would almost be wigglers and be eaten i pulled the eggs time before this and a week later they layed again and this is that clutch that im raising.
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:48 AM   #24
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1/1/14 = day #7 since hatching on my Marble Angel's fry. They became free swimming today. I put some carbon in a bag to clear out the blue then I will try to post a video of the free swimmers for ya. It all happens like clockwork, if you let the clock work

Happy New Year
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:14 AM   #25
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Kelly, are the fry still in the fuzz?

I dealt with something similar two months ago. My little girl threw some polyfill into my big goldfish pool. And (go figure) my girls decided it was a great opportunity before I realized it was in there. Once the fry were free swimming, I literally spent 7 hours painstakingly picking apart the polyfill strand by strand as I gently swirled it. Most of them survived the process but they certainly would not have if they had been left hopelessly entwined in the polyfill. Just have a TON of patience and take your time!
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:28 AM   #26
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I will try to get to a computer, as I can't see anything but the last 4 comments on my phone....but to reply to the last....it's been....WEIRD. To remind you, this was the first spawn from a new pair in a different tank from the rest. The sweater fuzz was wrapped up in the wigglers I pulled. I pulled them because they kept falling off the leaf in the tank, and there was still gravel at the bottom. So....I had 10 fry in fuzz. ALL of them survived in the fuzz until they broke free. A day after my last post, they appeared to be almost "sac-free". So, I started water changes. 2 days later, 8 were dead. I upped my water changes to twice daily (they're still just in a betta tank, so this is no problem). The 2 remaining are still alive. I've tried live BBS, frozen mushed, fry starter, and frozen baby BBS. I've never seen them eat, and their bellies look non-existant. The fuzz is long gone, but the weirdest thing....I've had the opportunity to really study these 2, and have noticed something strange....they have a sticky white substance growing out of the top of their heads. I'm assuming this is what keeps a wiggler stuck to something? I've watched them shake and wiggle the substance off, swim for a few min, then drop to the ground....stuck again by the head substance that grew back. The things I did different this batch were: I used prime with water changes. I did not use water from parent tank. Heat was at 80, versus 82. I started trying to feed after 8 days, even though they weren't swimming all the time, because their sacs were gone. I'm new to this, so forgive me if my questions are stupid....
- am I correct that this sticky head substance is normal of wigglers...but should stop once they're "fry"? Why could my guys still have it growing? Or us it something else?
- they MUST be eating....right? They're almost 2 weeks old. And, still scooting around swimming once in a while?
- I'm guessing they're belly sliders. Again, does this just "happen"? Or can I help them swim? They have side fins, gill plates, and I can see organs forming. This is a learning experience. I wouldn't try to save them if I had 200 more. But, I have 2 pair in another tank about to spawn. I'm tired of failing! Any help is appreciated.
I'm not stupid! I listen well. Something just isn't right. I don't have 3 pair of "bad genes" angelfish. Whether I leave them, or pull them, they all die! I spent MORE money, and now have a TDS meter and filter than leaves my set out tap water exactly 4 kh/6gh (same as tank). I stopped using bottled RO water, because I heard bacteria runs amuck in them. I believe prime has kept my 2 rejects alive. There's something I'm missing. I'm guessing it's something with the water, but I'm about to give up. The eggs turn into wigglers. A small portion swim. 3 days....and they're either dead or on the bottom. I bought fresh trace, vita-chem, and feed healthy foods when the females are fattening up. My tap water is disgusting, way too hard, and I can't use it straight. I'm afraid of buffers and replenish, and everything else is have to do for an RO machine, should I purchase one. I have a recurring issue with camallanus worms in the big tank (which may be the problem with the wigglers left with parents), but that doesn't explain why the pulled eggs from a different pair, in a different tank, still don't develop right. I'm extremely frustrated and ready to give up....but I must be doing something right, because the hall keep spawning! Aside from my whining, I'd love answers to the above questions....especially thoughts on the sticky, head stuff...and thoughts on water for fry. My current mix of 1/2 filtered tap water, 1/2 ice mountain spring water and prime has kept these 2 alive....but not healthy. If I have to suck it up and buy an RO machine, I'd love suggestions on the brand (I'm poor....) and what If need to add to it. Oh, I was worried it was a phosphate thing....but a tester indicates it's not. My tap TDS is 443. Main tank: 232. Fry tank 148. I know I'm putting too much into all of this, but I just want to find the right mix. I CANT do just tap water! I started out that way.....ph of 8.2, and a disaster! No way they'd breed in that! Okay, I've gone on long enough. Thx for any help
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:36 AM   #27
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I just read a response....and last question....when you put the eggs in tank with m.blue, heater, air stone....and WAIT...if you could not use your main tank water or tap water, what would you use? All my adults live. If I could get these guys past 3 days swimming, hopefully they would adapt to whatever is wrong with my water. So....spring water? Distilled?
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:27 PM   #28
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I just read a response....and last question....when you put the eggs in tank with m.blue, heater, air stone....and WAIT...if you could not use your main tank water or tap water, what would you use? All my adults live. If I could get these guys past 3 days swimming, hopefully they would adapt to whatever is wrong with my water. So....spring water? Distilled?
It's starting to sound like it's a water thing keeping you from moving forward. I've never seen a fry revert back to a wiggler with the sticky thread once it had become free swimming. Since we are not talking about wild or near wild fish, this could be a genetic thing? Fry don't adapt to bad water conditions like adults do, they just die.

In order to find the problem, you have to eliminate things one by one.
Here's the next experiment, when the eggs are laid, as soon as possible, put them into distilled water you buy at the store or rainwater you collect yourself. (Within 15 minutes of finished spawning would be ideal.) Don't distill your house's water. Make sure the PH is low as well (6.5-6.0). Use a heater, airstone and M. Blue. Do not do any water changes on the eggs. Use a small carbon bag to remove the M. Blue once the eggs have hatched, NOT BEFORE. Once the eggs have hatched, NO WATER CHANGES on them. If the fry are not free swimming by day 7, the problem is the fish themselves.
Now, if the fry are free swimming, you will need to feed them. Baby brine shrimp is my food of choice. Now that you know how to hatch those, you'll know to set them up on day 6 (if yours hatch out in 24 hours. adjust accordingly) so they will be ready. As a first feeding, I feed only the amount of live shrimp that fit underneath my index finger nail. ( I have short nails ) You should see the fry eating the shrimp or the after effects ( the orange belly.) Once you see them eating, you'll know that the water you used is the right water for the eggs to hatch, fry to mature and free swimmers to eat. Anything that goes wrong after this is from what you do next because THIS water is good. You may want to get a few feedings into these fry before you move them. This way, they should be good and strong and able to make the move. If you have the space, when you move them, you can split up the fry into 2 tanks where one is an exact duplicate of the fry water and the other is the water you are currently using for the other fish. If both fry tanks survive, the problem is not the water. If you lose the ones in your water vs the store bought distilled water, you'll know it's your water and you will need to experiment on whether distilling your water has any effect on the fry.
Unfortunately, there are only really 2 choices as to what's wrong: The water you're using or the fish's genetics. You can't test for the genetics so you have to eliminate the water.

Keep us posted

PS: If you use rainwater, check and adjust the PH (as described above) and I use PRIME in my rainwater "just in case" because my water runs down a metal roof before collection. I've had no bad effects on the fry.
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Old 01-04-2014, 02:36 AM   #29
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Thanks. That's great advice! I will have new eggs in a day or 2....and will do just that! Couple questions:
1. If the fry in distilled water swim and eat, do I start water changes on that tank? Wouldn't the water be deficient of the electrolytes/minerals/etc they need? If I should start daily WC's at that point, what water should I use then?
2. I think the WC's with prime have kept my rejects alive. They are limp when I come home, but go happy/crazy after the WC. Is there any hope for them? They must be eating....or they wouldn't be alive after this long. If it's more humane to cull them.....let me know.
Sorry I had to edit....my phone combined 2 posts issues. Thx
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:56 AM   #30
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Andy has a great point here! Trying to determine if its your water causing the fry issues or if its something amiss with the fry themselves (genetics) is a good place to start.

Rainwater is the closest thing to distilled (nature's distillation) but I am guessing that will be impossibility for use right now due to the zero and subzero temperatures most of us are experiencing. I am curious though to the reasoning in placing them pure distilled and not properly reconstituted water?
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Old 01-04-2014, 12:59 PM   #31
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Andy has a great point here! Trying to determine if its your water causing the fry issues or if its something amiss with the fry themselves (genetics) is a good place to start.

Rainwater is the closest thing to distilled (nature's distillation) but I am guessing that will be impossibility for use right now due to the zero and subzero temperatures most of us are experiencing. I am curious though to the reasoning in placing them pure distilled and not properly reconstituted water?
You got me there. I forget sometimes that I am in FL and have no snow to deal with . I'm originally from NJ so my second best choice then would be melted fresh snow. Just skim the upper layer off and take what is in the middle to use as clean water.

The reasoning for not using anything from her water system is to determine if her water system is the problem. While distilling should remove most everything from the water, there could be things within the water we can't or don't check for and may not come out in the distillation. By avoiding anything used from the past, it eliminates them as a potential problem or points to them as a probable cause. I hate to guess, I like to know.
Since we know that her water can support fish life, I am trying to determine if it's causing the fry problem. If the fry hatch out and mature but die off once adding her water back into the tank, that tells me it's no more house water until they get older or not to persue the breeding aspect without a major investment in water treatment. I'm sure it will be a more enjoyable hobby for Kelly if their aren't all these problems to have to deal with.

I hope I answered your question
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Old 01-04-2014, 01:17 PM   #32
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Thanks. That's great advice! I will have new eggs in a day or 2....and will do just that! Couple questions:
1. If the fry in distilled water swim and eat, do I start water changes on that tank? Wouldn't the water be deficient of the electrolytes/minerals/etc they need? If I should start daily WC's at that point, what water should I use then?
2. I think the WC's with prime have kept my rejects alive. They are limp when I come home, but go happy/crazy after the WC. Is there any hope for them? They must be eating....or they wouldn't be alive after this long. If it's more humane to cull them.....let me know.
Sorry I had to edit....my phone combined 2 posts issues. Thx
You seem to be set on doing water changes while I am trying to get you to stop them. lol My fish are doing fine with just the rain water and prime until they are moved into a grow out tank so don;t be so concerned with doing water changes yet. We need to determine if the fish are the problem or the water is the problem. By using live foods, you will be giving the fish the minerals and vitamins they need for the few days of this experiment. No water changing is necessary. You also used a carbon bag to remove the M. Blue so it also helps purify the water so again, no water changes are necessary.

NOW, as I stated in my previous post, once the fry have developed and are ready to be moved, I'd experiment with them being put into 2 different waters (Yours, and the Distilled water) and see what happens. Lets go from there when we get there.

As for the shrimp question, I am no expert on FW shrimps but I can tell you that invertebrates can house fish diseases however, shrimp have a digestive system that runs along the entire body and this is what you are probably seeing. ( In eating shrimp, they call the removal of this tract as "deveining" ) Most of the time it should be dark from the food is has digested and needs to eliminate. If this is what you are seeing, it's probably normal. The fact that your shrimp looks rough tells me it's a water thing. They really like clean water ( at least the marine shrimps do )

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Old 01-04-2014, 01:32 PM   #33
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You got me there. I forget sometimes that I am in FL and have no snow to deal with . I'm originally from NJ so my second best choice then would be melted fresh snow. Just skim the upper layer off and take what is in the middle to use as clean water.

The reasoning for not using anything from her water system is to determine if her water system is the problem. While distilling should remove most everything from the water, there could be things within the water we can't or don't check for and may not come out in the distillation. By avoiding anything used from the past, it eliminates them as a potential problem or points to them as a probable cause. I hate to guess, I like to know.
Since we know that her water can support fish life, I am trying to determine if it's causing the fry problem. If the fry hatch out and mature but die off once adding her water back into the tank, that tells me it's no more house water until they get older or not to persue the breeding aspect without a major investment in water treatment. I'm sure it will be a more enjoyable hobby for Kelly if their aren't all these problems to have to deal with.

I hope I answered your question
I completely understand what this experiment is trying to accomplish here and I agree it is worth testing.

The only thing I am questioning is placing fry in pure distilled water (no minerals, electrolytes, etc) as this would upset the osmotic balance of such tiny creatures that seem to be affected by everything. Even rainwater collects minute particles that exist in the atmosphere as it falls so it is not 100% 'pure' when compared to distilled out of a jug. Personally, I would reconstitute the distilled or perhaps consider a suitable spring water but that's just my opinion. No experience with angelfish fry to speak of- just going off of my experiences with goldfish fry.
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Old 01-04-2014, 02:34 PM   #34
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I completely understand what this experiment is trying to accomplish here and I agree it is worth testing.

The only thing I am questioning is placing fry in pure distilled water (no minerals, electrolytes, etc) as this would upset the osmotic balance of such tiny creatures that seem to be affected by everything. Even rainwater collects minute particles that exist in the atmosphere as it falls so it is not 100% 'pure' when compared to distilled out of a jug. Personally, I would reconstitute the distilled or perhaps consider a suitable spring water but that's just my opinion. No experience with angelfish fry to speak of- just going off of my experiences with goldfish fry.
I have no problems with reconstituting the bottled distilled water for the fry, I just don't want any of her water in the hatching experiment. That being said, I recently read an article about using straight distilled water to hatch out eggs from Angelfish pairs that have low hatch percentages to determine if the problem is the water or the fish. I used it ( rainwater not distilled) on a current pair of my Angels with a very good response compared to using half spawning tank water and 1/2 clean, new, filtered, softened, ph adjusted water or 1/2 rainwater( which is the method I had used over the years to create a LOT of baby Angels.) and has yielded low hatch percentage from this pair. These eggs were taken out of the tank within 10 minutes of the spawn being completed and put directly into straight rain water (PH 6.0 compared to tank water 6.7ish). Again, I use prime on my rainwater as it runs off a metal roof and there could be contaminants (i.e. Rust) in that water. The PRIME is most likely replacing the elements you are concerned with.
There is another factor however in your comment, you were comparing Angelfish, a tropical water specie, with your experience with goldfish, a cold water, non tropical fish. Egg developement from both species is different. Even fertilization of the eggs is different with PH playing an important role in the fertilizing of Angelfish eggs. The eggshell hardens slower in lower PH water so the egg has more time to be fertilized. This becomes an important factor with fish having problems or being bred in higher PH water. So I'm not sure the mineral/electrolyte situation is a necessary issue at this point. It may be once the fry have developed? We're not there yet
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Old 01-04-2014, 02:40 PM   #35
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Cheers, Andy! I shall be following along to see how this experiment works out! Hopefully, this will solve the problems Kelly is encountering.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:16 PM   #36
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The eggs were laid! And, the pair in the 40g are cleaning their fav leaf...so I'm guessing I'll have quite a few to play with! I'm ready to start experimenting! I had a crisis last night (weather/electric flicker/filter calling it quits), but I fixed everything in 10 min flat. The eggs had just been laid. So, I wasn't able to pull them immediately, but they've only been fertilized for 10 hours, and I will pull the other pair's eggs immediately. Okay...I've never pulled the eggs from the black mom (always waited until they were wigglers). Now that Andy's on board with trying some experiments....I'm trying not to deviate from the plan in any way so:
1. I understand pulling the plant with the eggs. How am I to separate half to put in a separate container with diff water? I've used the siphon method on wigglers....but will that work with eggs?. Just tell me what to do, and I'll do it.
2. The water discussion was very interesting! I started thinking water was the issue because I read that bottled water contains a LOT of bacteria. My water in the main tank has been 1/4 tap, 2/4 Walmart RO water (label states RO and oxidation are the filter methods), and 1/4 distilled mixed with prime. That gave me a gh of 8, kh of 4, and I used that mix since I started the tank about a year ago. My adult angels have had on/off health/bacteria issues, and the fry don't live past 3 days free swimming (whether I pull them or not). I kept a few fry alive in a jar using water I filtered myself with a brita....but the never swam. They lived almost 3 weeks just scooting around the bottom, never swimming more than a few min. Another note...the bottom kept having white, fluffy stuff on it. That was the main reason I was changing water on the jar. It looked like frozen brine shrimp mush. I would clean up any uneaten LIVE BBS, and go to bed (covering jar with aluminum foil). In the morning, white stuff almost covered the jar floor. I never added frozen anything. The wigglers just scooted through it. I'm guessing my water has too much or too little of something! Since I started experimenting, I found that ice mountain spring water has the exact gh/kh of my tank, but, again....it's bottled. I'd like to put some eggs in a jar with tank water, some in ice mountain water, some in distilled, and try the snow also. All would get m.blue, heater and air stone. So...back to question 1....how do I separate the eggs?
3. I trust Andy's wisdom and experience completely. I just like the knowledge behind the reasons for how things are done. So....no water changes on egg/wiggler tank until they swim. Got it! I just wondered why ammonia wouldn't hurt them. Every tank except the distilled will have minerals, bacteria, etc from the water. Even tho the eggs/wigglers themselves don't create ammonia or waste....wouldn't the water? Maybe that's a dumb question...I just like to understand.
4. Someone mentioned the minerals that distilled water lacks. I've been confused by this from the start. I always added 1/4 tap water to my mix, because I knew the fish needed SOMETHING. But, my angels and rams wouldn't breed until I got the gh (minerals) low enough. Why do they only recreate in water that's less healthy? I add vita chem to my tanks with every water change. I also purchased seachem fresh trace....but won't that just add the minerals back, that I took out by mixing softer water? I read somewhere that your gh can test high because of OTHER things in the water. Maybe my fish aren't getting enough minerals? Any thoughts? Is there any way to test what the actual mineral ratio is (other than a gh tested....which apparently can be misleading). I'd hate to deprive my babies of the minerals they need, just because sodium or whatever in my bottled water is making my gh test at 8 falsely!
I appreciate all the help! I worry about everything, and I'm sure everyone gets tired of my long posts! Sorry! There are just soooo many things that can go wrong. My most successful spawn (3 days free swimming) occurred with paragard in the tank, and the mom had been on antibiotic food before laying the eggs! I would think that would be very bad...but they lived the longest! Every time I think I figure things out, these fish throw me another curve ball! When I do get this all figured out, I'll be a master breeder of healthy angels....and I'll owe it all to you folks!
Okay, as soon as I get a response on how to separate eggs, I will start the experiments! (WITH NO WATER CHANGES) 😉
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:27 PM   #37
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OKay Kelly, I'm gonna have to start charging you for reading your posts LOL Just kidding

Here's the thing, in order to know if your water is the problem, you need to get the eggs out immediately. According to this article, ( I have to find it again and bookmark it ) even an hour after spawning is too late for the shells to be soft enough. So you can forget about this recent spawn.
As to splitting the eggs, unless the parent's spawn on multiple sites, you won't be able to split them. You'll have to keep records of the results from different spawns by the same parents. My suggestion, based on the eggs all hatching and the fry becoming free swimming ( not bottom scurriers), was to split the free swimming fry into the different waters to see if they have a problem adjusting to it after hatching in "good water". But if you don't get free swimmers, there's nothing to do the experiment with. You've already proven that your eggs will hatch in the water you are using. What you need to figure out is if the fry can live in that water (which it seems they're not able to based on your results.) But again, you can't rule out genetics just yet.
As for the white stuff on the bottom of the fry's jars/tanks/ whatever, you are over feeding!!!!! STOP IT!!! Feed less but more often IF NECESSARY. If you are having live food still swimming by the next feeding, you are feeding too much of it and should cut back the amount. All that white crap WILL create an ammonia issue. Unless you are dealing with fry in a tank with an actively working sponge filter, white gunk on the bottom is a problem. Avoid having it.

So that's the Angels. Now, why the fish breed in "bad" water? It's not bad to them!! In Nature, Rams and Angels come from extremely soft, acidic water so there are no elements in the water which we have in ours and makes the water "hard". So they get what they need from their food. Your job is to duplicate what they get to eat naturally as best as possible. The ones who do this well, usually have breeding pairs. Those who don't, usually are on the sidelines scratching their heads as to why.

One last thing about the water, I want you to get water off the store's shelves NOT from their machine. (That's where the bacteria issues are usually found.) Using a brand name's water is a better guarantee that it's been purified.

Start from here
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:57 PM   #38
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Darn! I almost pulled them last night....but was so afraid of a power outage (main tank is on generator...so stays running). Okay, well, my pair in the other tank are spawning as we speak...so I will pull ASAP. We are literally snowed in in Indiana (no travel advisory in effect/state of emergency), but I have bottled betta water, bottled ice mountain spring water and the snow. I have tons of bottled tap water, but the point is to get away from that for experimental purposes. I'm going to pull the eggs from the main tank anyways (in case it's something IN the water ((bacteria/parasite)) versus the actual water) and put them in the spring water. I now understand the experiment....and that I'll have to just record differences each spawn (thought I could rush it and try all methods with one batch 😣.). In your opinion, should I put the eggs I pull immediately from the other pair in snow with prime? And do distilled next round, since I can't get out to get any? Or try the betta bottled water this time?
Also, what do you suggest as far as feeding the parents? I don't have some of the stuff others talk about, and can't make cocktails with gelatin. I'm currently feeding (adult angels):
- api tropical pellets softened with vita-chem (ingredients: vitamin c and e, garlic, spirulina, etc) in the morning.
- frozen emerald entree (mysis shrimp, brine, krill, plankton, spinach, spirulina, vitamins, yeast, lettuce, and a whole bunch of words I don't know) in the evening.
I was feeding blood worm treats, but stopped a few weeks ago after reading they cause digestion and parasitic issues.
Is there something I need to add or take away? Also, I didn't have the timetable down for the first few spawns, and the mom was fed metro laced and kanaplex laced flakes from angels plus for possible hole in the head. Do medications in the food effect eggs being formed in the mom? I'm sticking to the water experiments for the next few spawns, then I think I will try feeding differently.
I know I worry and ask too many questions! Can't help it! I REALLY appreciate the advice....and would seriously pay for your expert services! I do paypal 😊. Thanks for putting up with me! I will pull these eggs, then try to shut up until they swim (god willing)....
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:10 PM   #39
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Sorry...1 more question....you said "purified" water. The stores in my area contain the following bottled water in different brands:
- purified water (no indication of how it's filtered)
- distilled (steamed I believe it says)
- drinking (states RO and oxidation filtered)
- drinking (Deionized)
- spring (says straight from springs. I called the company. They say they use 1macron filters and carbon)
There are also Fiji, Nestlé, and others that add fluoride. I stay away from anything that says "added minerals for taste". They also have the machines...but I figured that was bad because of the salt in water softeners. Mebbid has listened to my endless water questions for some time now. He tries, but I'm apparently too slow to grasp this. I understand that carbon is said to cause hole in the head, so I stay away from it in my tanks. But ALL water seems to be put through some carbon filtering. Are there different methods? How the heck am I supposed to know which water works? (TDS, GH, KH, phosphates, filter method.....I just want someone to say: "buy evian and don't touch it"! Lol). So.....for the next batch/experiment that I will pull within 10 min, should I use distilled? Or purified? Or does it matter?
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:45 PM   #40
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Location: Sussex county delaware
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It sucks your having such an issue but my fry i have now are all outta pure well water no prime or anything. My well is really pure but where my fiance lives we use her city water that has heavy metal and all we use is kordon conditioner. I found all i do is wait for 20-30 minutes after the spawn and put in the same water they were layed with the meth blue a heater and bubbler and wait. My blue pair must have old school blood because its 6 days from layed to free swimmers.
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