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Old 10-19-2013, 10:20 PM   #1
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How long before angelfish lay eggs??? And other ?s

I Have 2 females with very plump lower bellies, and papilla showing. Their bellies seem bigger every day. I have plexi-glass that one gravid female, and a gold (male??? I hope) seem to protect, but they are not the biggest angelfish in the tank, and the gold one gets pecked ALOT. The female has been plump and sleeping next to the slate for days. The other, even plumper female, an almost pure white, feisty little one, swims around trying to claim the entire tank, but no spot in particular. I was told AFTER adding her and a white male, that they had spawned before, but he doesn't seem to have much interest in anything, except food. (Side note: I found him behind the smaller filter last night, and he was breathing a little heavy. He still has a few of the red splotches on his head, but he seems much better than when I got him). Here are my questions:
1. How long do females get "fatter" before laying eggs?
2. Are the first pair not spawning because of their tank-mates? Can they just NOT do it, if they don't feel comfortable, even though she's obviously ready?
3. Since I have never seen any of these fish lock lips for any extended amount of time, could I just be wrong about these 2 being egg-filled? Are there other signs of pairing? Could they have lip-locked when I wasn't looking, and already be paired? (If the first pair sleeping by the plexi-glass isn't a pair, then I give up!!!! I've never seen 2 fish so joined at the hip, yet I never see the normal signs).
4. If the white females mate is not up to par, will she just NOT lay eggs? Or find a new partner (maybe why she's pecking every fish in the tank)?
5. Will aquarium salt affect breeding in any way? I have never used it, but an explanation below will explain why I'm asking....basically, can kh fluctuation cause rapid breathing/flicking/etc? And is aquarium salt the safest first step for these symptoms if I'm not sure the cause?
6. I will give my parameters next, as I'm guessing (thanks to Andy, mebbid, and others who have pointed out) that the problem is probably ME...and my messing with the water. So any help on that will be appreciated.
For those who haven't had the pleasure of reading one of my long threads, here are my stats: 55g with 6 adolescent angelfish (1 is 3", 3 are about 2", and 2 are less than 2"), 4 blue rams (all an inch or less, but have laid eggs), 2 denison barbs (2.5" each), and a bala shark (2.5"). Total fish= 23.5" of fish. I know that's tight, and may be the problem, but I need to know who's paired with who before moving some to already cycled tanks. Oh...I also have a few ghost shrimp that I see from time to time. The main filter is an aqua clear 300 with sponge, nitra-zorb and bio-bag. Secondary 20g whisper filter contains a sponge and purigen. My ammonia, nitrites are 0. Nitrates are 5. I have driftwood in the tank, and use a mix of tap and RO water to get a ph of 7-7.2, kh:3-4, gh:6-7. One of the problems may be the kh, as it fluctuates....meaning the ph might too? Every time I test, ph and gh are constant, but kh has gone as low as 2. I'm afraid to use buffers, but may need to, as I think my fish load and driftwood amount may be too much. 2 nights ago, a male ram was looking very pale, flicking his gills, and not responding to his mate who was trying to lay eggs. The only significant water test was kh.....2. I did a water change with a higher ratio of tap water. Yesterday, the ram was swimming around the tank again, but I found the big male angel breathing hard behind the filter. Kh: 3. Today, everyone seems okay (except the big male angel still has red where his side fins meet his body, breathes heavier than the rest, and has red splotches on his head). I fed the new fish kanaplex food from angelsplus for 7 days, and they seemed great before I added them to the tank, so I really think his problem, and probably my breeding halt is water related. I know that I should have never tried to mess with my ph, but I can't reverse that decision. I'm looking for ideas to make things STAY where they are! I was told aquarium salt would at least ease gill function, assist with healing any injuries, and etc. but, I want opinions, as I've never used it in this tank before. I will put the water questions in a separate thread, but I included them here because breeding these fish is my priority. I thought of sectioning off the first "pair", to see if indeed they are just not completing the act because of their tank mates. I would love to just "leave them alone to do their thing", but THEY ARENT! And, if it's my fault, I want to fix it. Thanks for listening, and I appreciate feedback! If you got bored after the questions, I would appreciate opinions on at least them....I do tend to write books....but I love my fish!
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:11 PM   #2
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Kelly, I'll answer the majority of your questions simply by saying" Fish spawn when they are ready, and not a moment sooner." Ideally, they should be in a separate tank from other fish if you really want to expedite their breeding. If they are not healthy or not comfortable they will not breed even with being full of eggs.
There are many signs of pairing. Lip Locking is just one and not ALWAYS done. I haven't seen either female from the trio lip lock with the male but both have spawned with him. (The females did do that with each other tho so it goes to show you, they don;t always read the manual.)
So until you get your tank right, there is nothing more you can do(or should do) in the breeding department. If you can't get your main tank stabilized, you will not be very successful in raising the eggs and fry (which will only lead to more frustrated posts from you. ) As I suggested before, just step back, stop messing with he tank and let nature take it's own course. You may lose some fish of you insist on breeding in a community set up. I seriously doubt anyone will challenge that. THAT'S how predictable it is. Keep that in mind as you move forward.

Good luck.
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:15 PM   #3
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Thanks Andy. I know you're right. But, couldn't you just once say "5.5 days"? Or "put this in the water"? Or anything other then "stop"???? Lol! I know I may need to hear it, BUT I WANT BABIES!!!
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:18 PM   #4
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Oh...one thing....you ARE telling me to just leave it be, right? A kh of 2-4 is ok? Just making sure before I turn off the lights! I don't know how to get my tank in better shape...if I don't know what's wrong! Sorry for the long post, I just really wish I understood better. Not so I could change it....just so I KNOW!
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:33 PM   #5
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I am currently breeding in a community tank like you but my angels wont breed in solitary or they stress way to much. I agree with andy. They will spawn when they want and where they want too. Ive got 2 sets of pots stacked and 9 peices of tile around my tank for them to spawn on. They will more than likely eat the eggs in a community set up like mine do so you hafta be ready at any moment to pull eggs and set in a methlyne blue set up.
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:46 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly5978 View Post
Thanks Andy. I know you're right. But, couldn't you just once say "5.5 days"? Or "put this in the water"? Or anything other then "stop"???? Lol! I know I may need to hear it, BUT I WANT BABIES!!!
Okay, if it will make you feel better , There is no amount of days that can be estimated until spawning if the fish are not ready or willing to do so. Your wanting babies is the last thing on your fish's minds. Your fish's main concerns are that their water makes them feel good and they can find food when they are hungry. Breeding becomes a non issue when these things are not present.

As for your water parameters, here is what I do:
After I see the tank has gone through the nitrite cycle, I know the sponge filter is good and established and I only check things again if the fish look bad. (That's how good my system for fish keeping is. )
I don't test for KH but for GH. I use a bare tank and I soften the water I use for the fish tanks in a separate, empty tank. I use nothing in the tanks that will alter the PH, GH, KH or "What the H" so there is no need to check them again.
Routine weekly water changes will suffice to keep nitrates low. Lower stock in the tanks will keep nitrates from going out of whack as well.

THAT'S IT!!!!! You want to make it more complicated? add gravel. Want your fish to have fights for breeding territory? add more fish to the tank. Want your water to destabilize? keep messing with it. I'm only changing the water for the fish I bought up North. My local fish are in different water so they aren't being mixed together with the Northern fish. I duplicated what the fish came from and am keeping it that way. I'm not forcing the fish to do anything and I am being rewarded for my lack of effort Yes, the fish can live in a multitude of water conditions but they won;t always breed in any water conditions. If that's your goal, you need to duplicate what your fish were born in. That simple. It gives you the best possible chance to have success. If you can't do so, you just take your chances and let them do what they are going to do. Nothing you desire will change that.

Can I make it any clearer???
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:04 PM   #7
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I'm sure you're right that I "do too much", "worry to much" and etc. however, I'm QUITE sure that you did not know all of the "tricks", like separating fish from others coming from different water, or bare-bottom tanks (first time I've been told that, but sounds pretty smart for less complications), or "softening water" before you put it in the tank.....and I KNOW you've had to medicate fish, mess with TDS, and test water to determine which kind is best, because you helped me with it when I first started this forum. Also, you have MANY YEARS OF EXPERIENCE. So, if my long, rambling questions seem stupid to you, please feel free to scroll on past. I ask these questions because I love my fish, and want to understand them (and their water needs) better. I'm hoping for HELP! Not for the same person to jump on every question, make me feel stupid for asking, never really answer the question, but take time out of your busy day to mention how easy breeding is for you (after YEARS of doing it), and how well everything is going! I have only been doing this 1 year, and have successfully spawned other breeds of fish, brought a few angels back from next to death, and will continue to pester anyone who will listen, if it means learning how to be a better fish keeper. I agree with your advice, and I really try to "get my water right and leave it alone", but if I have questions....I would think a FORUM would be the place to ask them. However, when the "expert" jumps on my every question about water or breeding, I don't get many opinions from anyone else, and feel discouraged from asking other questions! There MUST be ways to tell if a female is gravid, or has some internal problem. There surely ARE people who will look at a picture and say "yes that's a breeding tube", or "no....that's a parasite". I've saved an entire tank of fish from suffering through a camallanus worm infestation (which I had NEVER heard of before coming to this forum), because someone put up with my million questions, and HELPED ME FIGURE OUT AND FIX the problem! He didn't tell me I was meddling too much, or to just leave everything be! There are many, MANY things to consider when looking at a question about fish (water parameters, tank set-up, media used, the species, the integrity of the breeder selling the fish, and yes....the intensity of the fish keeper). But, because I DO watch and worry too much, I typically catch problems early, and through trial and error....succeed. So, if my fish has something hanging out of it, that I believe is a breeding tube, but am not "experienced enough" to know for sure which sex, or even if it IS a breeding tube (my fish's "tube" has been hanging down for almost 2 weeks, which was the foundation for my question....not to annoy you, but figure out if it might be something I've overlooked, or if it is normal), then I wish I could ask my questions without being poked at. I have the utmost respect for you and the others on this forum, I just want to get things right! As for my water, I just LIKEthe science of it! I like knowing how and why....you mentioned softening water before adding to tank, but never said how. I used driftwood and RO water (that you helped me figure out which type was best a few months back), and got my water perfect. Unfortunately, it keeps getting lower all of a sudden, and I was hoping for suggestions to stop it. I would rather bug people, and ask a lot of questions, then lose fish to a ph crash!
As for the other responder, thanks! I am ready with a tank set-up and m.blue, if I'm ever lucky enough to get this right and see eggs! I believe I have 2 pairing up in my 55g. The 2 females have been fattening up in the lower belly area, and the pair with the female that has had something white sticking out of her for 2 weeks now started cleaning the leaves all around the plexi-glass last night. I finally decided to try the divider. I know a lot of people don't like them, but my "male" (I hope) can still see the other angels....so he still flares up in protection mode, and this was the only way I could think of to hopefully grab eggs before their eaten (this is my smaller pair, and the little guy does his best, but I'm guessing someone would get to the eggs before me). These 2 seem very happy with the set-up. I'm probably going to move the other pair (really hoping I have them labeled right) to their own tank. Is there any way to tell if a female is gravid.....or just "clogged"? I fed them peas, but her belly didn't go down at all! She is NOT showing her tube yet, so I'm trusting the breeder that she's even a female!!!! Just wish I did have more experience, so I COULD sex them and at least move the right ones. I think one big problem is too many angels in one tank....but I don't want to start separating to different tanks until I KNOW they're pairs! At this point, I'd be happy just to see eggs, even if they didn't hatch! Then, id at least know who was who! I will definitely report back if that happens!
I hope my comments are not taken wrong. I value the opinions and help I get here. I will try to stop questioning so much!
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Old 10-21-2013, 02:27 PM   #8
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WOW! You are passionate. I have kept, bred and ruined aquariums since I was a child. I am old now. I do not consider myself an expert. But have been through all the trials and tribulations spoken about in this forum. I have even been banned for calling moderators out on there decisions or treatment of members. But then it's there forum and I am only a guest. I can say Andy has been a consistent true contributor of honest information. Without being condescending to the less informed. In my experience success in this hobby is measured in different forms. For you right now it's in a successful breeding. But in trying to achieve this from your post, I see that stress for you and your creatures is rising exponentially. STOP is a helpfull word. The payoff in leaving water parameters alone will payoff for you and your angels. Unless you have thousands and can invest in a several thousand gallon reservoir, to have treated water ready. The greatest key to success in this hobby is moderation in stocking a tampering with water parameters. The greatest asset you can do is partial frequent water changes, done with the least amount of disruption to the fish. Avoid stress enjoy your fish.
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Old 10-21-2013, 03:01 PM   #9
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That's the plan. I meant no disrespect. I have decided to just enjoy my pretty tank. Apparently, if the "tubes" are something else, I'll know eventually. I am just frustrated. Maybe I said things in the wrong way, and if I'm banned, I will live. It's just difficult after trying so hard, spending way too much money on this "hobby", and really CARING about the outcome....to hear "you're doing it wrong, leave it alone, all my fish breed like rabbits!" It's especially hard, when one person says "do this", then someone else says "no, no, no.....do that"! I ask questions to get different opinions, then make my own. The thing no one here understands, is that I get beat up at home for all the time and money I spend on fish! At first, it really helped to come to the forum, get different ideas, not worry so much after reading others' experiences. But, I've tried too hard to duplicate what people take years to learn. I re-read my previous post. I apologize. I do sound quite snotty. I do appreciate the help and knowledge of Andy and everyone else! I guess I am just tired of feeling stupid for trying too hard, when some people don't try at all (ZERO water changes in a year, and my bf mom has a perfect healthy tank). For now, I will shut up, use google for my questions, and hopefully it will work out. Thanks, and again....sorry if I sounded rude
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:40 PM   #10
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Kelly: I think you are misinterpreting what I am telling you. I feel your frustrations but you are asking questions that can't be answered. I mean they REALLY REALLY REALLY don't have definite answers. It's all up to the fish. These are living things and they don't have on/off switches. I've tried to show you how that has even been experienced by me as well. It can be frustrating. But it all comes down to this: Keeping a stable environment increases your chances of the fish breeding. A stable environment is not determined by test kit readings but by consistency in those readings. If your tank keeps changing readings then you are doing more harm then good by altering it constantly. That's from the science of keeping fish. It's been that way since I started keeping fish back in 1963.
Regarding why I keep jumping on your questions, I have repeatedly shown others on this site that there are many on here offering advice that is either incorrect or is incomplete and dependent on where in the country they are gaining these experiences. Water is not the same everywhere and my experiences have involved working in many different areas of the country. That qualifies me to answer your questions. It's why you should listen to what I say and stop asking for other answers. You've been given the best advice ( It ain't bragging if it's true. lol I was told that ) Having more answers is not necessarily going to get you more good info. Just more info. At only a year into this hobby, there is so much you still need to learn by your own experience and not from the experience of others. That's what will make you a better fish keeper. It's the same as "You don't really learn how to drive a car until you get behind the wheel." It's a whole new experience than from the manuals.
I recently had dinner with 2 friends who consider me an expert in fish breeding and fish keeping. Between the 2 of them, they have over 80 years of fish keeping and breeding experience. Add me to the mix and there is over 125 years of fish breeding and keeping experience. The following post I made on another thread on this site is what they have witnessed:
What I breed and what I've bred....
I just finished a 3 year program of breeding Bettas as that was all I had room for at the time. Pics of some of my fish can be seen in my albums in my profile. I am currently raising some Angelfish again to breed as well as I have 1 pair of Silvers now spawning but with 0 success as yet for fry. ( This is only their 4th spawn so I'm not worried ) Pics of my Angels and pair can also be seen in my album.

As for what I have bred besides the above mentioned fish:
I will leave out the live bearers as I've done some of every type in some color pattern at some point in time.
For my Mentor's store ( from 1964-1974):
Angels, Oscars, Firemouths, jewels, Convicts, Severums, Jack Dempsey, Keyhole, Rams ( when they were called Apistogramma ramerizi lol), Rainbow cichlids, Blue and Green Acaras, Texas cichlids, Zebra Danio, Pearl Danio, Giant Danio, Cherry barbs, Gold barbs, Tiger Barbs, Rosey barbs, Checker barbs, Comet goldfish, Oranda type goldfish, Red Minor Tetras, lemon Tetras, Neon tetras, White cloud Minnows, Black Tetras, Head and Tail lite tetras, Glo-lite Tetras, Silver Tip Tetras, Bloodfin Tetras, Pristella Tetras, Bettas, Paradise fish, Dwarf, Blue, Gold, Pearl and Giant Gourami (That I can remember.)
In my personal hatcheries, (1974-1988):
Fish added to the list above include:
Gold Severums, Kribenses, Brichardi, Black Phantom Tetras, Discus, Green and Albino Aneus catfish, Black Ruby Barbs, Green Tiger barbs, Albino tiger barbs ( that I can remember.)

As for customers, Some of them are still in the biz and looking forward to my Angels when I have them to sell.

Both of these guys bought these fish from me for their stores. (These were not just one time spawnings but for continual supply.)

So as you can see, I am more than qualified to answer your questions and why I try to do so. (I'm on this site to help get the right info out there.) Each type of those fish required different water parameters to breed. I promise you that had I not given them what they wanted, they would not have bred for me. That was the best lesson my Mentor taught me. It has been proven right ever since.
But enough about me.......

Let's address some of the things you have just said:
You said you got your water perfect but it keeps changing. You are incorrect. Perfect water does not fluctuate. Even a stopped clock is right 2 times a day. All your messing around with it has gotten you to the right number but not at a consistent level. Angels happen to be one of those fish that can live in a number of different water chemistries so if you are worried about a PH crash, don't put your water in a position to crash. Acclimate your fish to whatever water you can consistently have.


You said "if my long, rambling questions seem stupid to you, please feel free to scroll on past." I have never said they were stupid questions. They have, however, become redundant. You can ask the same question many different ways but it doesn't change the answer. If my answers made you feel stupid, you have my apologies as that was definitely not what I intended.

You said " There MUST be ways to tell if a female is gravid, or has some internal problem." Actually, without an X-ray machine or MRI, no there isn't. They both look the same at certain times and only the observation of the fish can get you an educated guess at that point. HOWEVER, there is a way to eleveate this situation: medicate all your fish when you first get them for internal and external parasites and worms. This way, your fish will be clean when they go into your display tank and if your fish become engorged, it will be from eggs and not worms. (But let's not forget about bloat.)
And speaking of bloat, let me just say that I NEVER before fed peas to my fish to keep their digestive systems clean. That to me is a sign that "you" (the cumulitive you, not the specific you) are not feeding your fish properly which is causing digestive problems.

You said " There surely ARE people who will look at a picture and say "yes that's a breeding tube", or "no....that's a parasite". I am one of those people. Unfortunately, you did not show me a picture of an extended breeding tube. Look at this picture and see if your fish pics look like this one.
Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community - Andy Sager's Album: New Angelfish - Picture This is of a pair that spawned about an hour before I took this picture. Their tubes have already started to receed.

You said " .you mentioned softening water before adding to tank, but never said how." It doesn't matter how you soften the water. I used the pillow for my well water but I used rain water as well which needs no softening. You want to use driftwood or peat or what have you, it doesn't matter. The final product is all that matters.

You said " I've saved an entire tank of fish from suffering through a camallanus worm infestation (which I had NEVER heard of before coming to this forum), because someone put up with my million questions, and HELPED ME FIGURE OUT AND FIX the problem! He didn't tell me I was meddling too much, or to just leave everything be!" When it comes to treating diseases, fast action is required for a better outcome. That being said, fish can live with worms for a long time before sucumbing to the infestation. That would not fly with a good case of Crypt or Oodinium or certain bacterial diseases. Those conditions can kill fish in 24 hours. BUT that was not what we were discussing. We were discussing water parameters and keeping them from fluctuating. That's a VERY different animal than disease control and treatment.

You said " if I have questions....I would think a FORUM would be the place to ask them." Yes, a forum of experts would be a good place to ask. But this is not a forum of experts. This is an open forum of hobbyists who have a variety of experiences and are able to give answers even if they are not correct or qualified to answer. You would be better off (IMO) getting your info from books written by experts such as Innes, Schultz and Burgess to name a few. This is information you can deem reliable and correct.

You said " I'm QUITE sure that you did not know all of the "tricks", like separating fish from others coming from different water, or bare-bottom tanks .... or "softening water" before you put it in the tank." Actually, I was blessed and fortunate to be trained by a certified expert so while I didn't know these things before I started keeping fish, I was told and shown these things and instructed as to when I needed to use them. As for tricks for Angelfish, I'm sure you've seen, or Bob or I told you to read through, the "Wigglers at last!!!!" thread. Pretty much every trick I have ever learned or used to breed Angels is in that thread. From bare tanks to size of tanks or habits to look for or things NOT TO DO if you want to be successful is in that thread. So the info is out there but not just from me but from other commercial breeders. (These are people who HAVE to get it right.) It's your choice whether you want to follow those who think they know what to do or those who are doing it.

I will stop here because I don't want you to think I'm picking on you. I'm not. I'm just trying to educate you. THAT'S what I do and have done for over 40 years. If you prefer, I will not post in any more of your threads and let you get other opinions (although I am not stopping anyone else from posting.) If you want to ask me questions directly, you can PM me. But I offer you this last piece of advice: Opinions are like Rear Ends....everybody has one. But you don't want yours to look like everyone's.


Hope this helps
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:54 AM   #11
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I need to add another thing or 2:
I spent the better part of my career in fish keeping learning about the fish I was keeping. By knowing where they came from, what their habits were, what they ate, how they lived, how they bred, etc, it all helped me to understand the fish. THAT's why I have had the successes I've had. I have stacks and stacks of reference books about fish keeping. All the information in one place. The internet may be today's way of getting info but if you don't ask the right question, the internet doesn't give you the complete answers. Just something else to think about.

As for my post about my fish breeding while yours weren't, that was to show you how by following some basic principles of fish keeping, the fish will respond in a positive way. The fact that yours weren't was an indication to me that you were not doing something right. That was all, not a bragging post.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:46 AM   #12
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VERRYYYYYYY well put Andy . i for one have listened to you every step of the way and have gained so much knowledge that i never knew before. and i was one who thought i knew it all lol. Kelly please do not be offended by Andy . he is a very good teacher-professor - expert- and he will tell u just how it is with out pulling punches or sugar coating it. i personally don't even own a test kit, well i do but its still in the original box un opened. . any way we love you and your fish so feel free to ask and we will help.
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Old 10-26-2013, 01:31 AM   #13
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Hi Kelly,

It would be much easier for you and the fish if each suspected pair had their own tank. I have fry coming out of my ears and I am considering buying some angels to raise and pair up.

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Old 10-28-2013, 10:19 PM   #14
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I have many things to say in response....but my angelfish have laid eggs, so that's my primary concern. They laid them on the filter. Is there any way to safely remove them, or keep them safe in the tank? Can I still do my water change tomorrow? I'm sure this first batch will be eaten, but I'm very proud none the less. Watching them as closely as I have. Has helped me answer a lot of my own questions, and understand how this works a lot better.
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Old 10-28-2013, 10:29 PM   #15
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ok now they have layed eggs your water is rite so no more messing with it.
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Old 10-29-2013, 06:02 AM   #16
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Actually, I wasn't messing with anything. I do overthink, etc. but the reason for my many questions is so that I have all my options before doing anything. My water has still never had any chemicals, etc added to it. I was considering buffers, so I asked about them. But, yes...I have eggs and am excited.
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Old 10-29-2013, 07:11 AM   #17
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My response to Andy: I'm not going to copy/paste or give direct quotes, but I do feel I should respond, although I already apologized. About my water: re-read your answers, PLEASE. In one moment, I'm told that if my fish aren't breeding, the problem is me, my water, or my messing with the water, so leave it alone. Very soon after, I'm told that "giving the fish the water they want" is the way to successfully breed. YOU helped me with that in the beginning. So, I am NOT asking you to stop answering my questions! I appreciate your experience, knowledge and help. Sometimes, I'm just confused by the answers. I know there are no exacts, but saying "don't mess with the water", but "if you want them to breed, put them in the water they were born in", and "don't use anything to keep the water from fluctuating", but "don't let it fluctuate" are a tad contradicting and confusing. And, lord knows....I'm easily confused ��. I DID follow your (much appreciated) advice, and got my water right. I understand that by adding new angels, I messed it up. I have lightened the fish load, and hopefully gotten things back to "right", without buffers or chemicals. I was mistakenly confusing seachem salespeople for experts, and was extremely confused about KH. I just want to understand it....but that's a separate issue. My only point was: if I don't understand the answer, then my asking the question in a different way is really just hoping for an answer that I will understand (NOT saying that the first answer was wrong). You are right about listening to too many people. I actually don't. I've never thrown something into my tank, just because Jo-fish face said it would help. I like to see what people many people do in different situations, only so I can look at what works for the majority. But, each any every time, I weigh an expert's advice (YOURS) way more heavily in my final decision. I was never challenging your credentials. In fact, I would very much appreciate titles to any reference books regarding water chemistry, breeding, and angelfish. I would love to have scientific answers at my disposal, so I didn't bother everyone with the same questions. (I hate feeling like I'm a pest...in case you don't remember, the last time I contacted you directly, you told me to message you at a "decent time of day". I don't even know where you live, therefore don't know what time is "decent" for you, which is why I returned to the forum for my questions). Besides, it's not your responsibility to help with all my fish "woes". So, please refer me to the reference books you find the most useful.
If the air is now hopefully cleared, and I am forgiven for my frustrated rudeness, could you tell me how to proceed? All I want to know is: should I risk my first batch of eggs by removing them (stubborn fish layed on the filter), not try with the first batch and move the fish (hoping they'll spawn in their own tank), or risk spooking them by using the divider to keep the other fish away until the eggs get to the wiggler stage and remove them then? Just your opinion....a, b, or c? Finally, will leaving the lights on help or hurt the situation? The parents look exhausted, but momma keeps fanning. Thanks
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:47 AM   #18
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ok read this and see if it helps any.

How To Breed Angelfish
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Old 10-31-2013, 06:07 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob mccoy View Post
ok read this and see if it helps any.

How To Breed Angelfish

Well Kelly, my responses have been directly related to questions you asked. Unfortunately, you asked many questions so while the answers may have been confusing to you, it was because you were taking answers to different questions and blending them all into one situation ( which I was not answering just one situation.)

One of the nice things about domesticated Angelfish is that they are really rather adaptable to living in many different water conditions. Breeding , on the other hand, can be a whole other story. But if you can't get them to live, breeding them is a moot point, wouldn't you agree?

I'm not sure where but I saw you say that you didn't do anything and your fish bred. Truth is, earlier in that response, you mentioned that you lowered the air so you DID in fact do something that may have been what was keeping your fish from spawning in the first place. At this point we will never know HOWEVER, it is a known fact that high aeration can cause the PH of water to rise. (I experienced this in my warehouse with saltwater fish.) So if you put all the things going on in your tank together with the lowering of your air, you may have changed the pH to a point where the fish liked it enough to breed. This is why basic aquarium needs are a must to know before worrying about breeding your fish. I'm just sayin'

As for what comes next......Bob's link to the article would be a good thing to read and follow. First spawns (from young fish) are rarely a success. You can do everything you know, Bob knows, Ray knows and/or I know and that won't change this outcome. I, for example, am currently experiencing heavy fry losses after they hatch and right as they should be becoming free swimming. If this was the old days, I'd be guessing that it was because the fish are still new breeders or I'd be questioning the parents. When I spoke to a fellow breeder here in FL and who I've known for over 25 years about it, he told me that this is more common in today's fish than ones we bred back then. So you see, times have changed, and so have the fish. Not much you can do about it. Just go with the flow and do what you can as best you can. There are no guarantees. The format I've layed out on the Wigglers thread still works. Doesn't matter where you are. The only thing that will change is how many fry you get from each spawn.

Lastly, and this actually has to do with breeding anything, attention to detail is key. You mentioned you didn't know where I lived. Well if you looked at my avatar or name there on the left side of the screen, you'd see that it says I'm in Lake Wales, FL. I believe it also states that in my profile info. ( I don't hide behind a funny or cute screenname or phoney address.) DETAILS, if you were paying attention, you'd have seen that. Just sayin'

I wish you success in your breeding efforts. If you have any questions regarding breeding Angels, I'd read through the wigglers thread. I can't think of too many things pertaining to breeding that hasn't already been discussed on there.

Hope this helps
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Old 11-03-2013, 07:06 PM   #20
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Thanks. Can you tell me a good reference book for knowledge (like air bubbles raising ph....I admit, I had NO clue). And possibly one on breeding angels? I can't do the long threads and links on my phone. Period. It's not an excuse, it's a fact. And, I agree I confuse myself with too many questions....and listening to too many answers. I am respectfully asking for the best author (in your opinion) of books about angelfish care/breeding and aquarium knowledge. I've only had 1 angel die. It was long ago, but probably because I over medicated. Now, I'm the first one to say "just leave them alone!" But that doesn't stop my noticing, and worrying, about what is going on in my tank. I think maybe I ask the same questions because I know there IS an answer, but I'm asking the wrong thing! It would have been marvelous for someone to say "lower aireation for a lower ph to induce breeding", but I never asked about the bubbles. My bad. I never claimed to know what's best, which is why I'm here to begin with. The first eggs all turned white within 48 hours. I knew it would probably happen, so I didn't overreact. HOWEVER, I have been asking about this female angel for months. First, she had scrapes all the time. Everyone said "water changes". That seemed to work, but the fin holes and scrapes keep coming back. Now, she has definite white patches. 1 on her face, 1 on her side. This is the breeding thread, so I will just say: I'm not counting on a second spawn anytime soon. I really would appreciate your advice on authors, as I understand that no one here can come look at my tank, tell me what's wrong, and/or how to fix it. I'm convinced there's some bacterial/fungal thing in my tank. I've left everything alone. I've tried to just do more water changes. But, you're right....if I ever hope to breed, I'd better figure out my tank first. So, if you have any good reference book suggestions....
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