New breeding pair

[Devan]

Daddy has spawned close to 20 times. They were all unsuccessful due to momma eating the eggs soon after they were fertilized. Mom for some reason (still unknown) stopped laying, got really bloated and passed away. [emoji24] I got really upset and rehomed all of my fish except for my remaining two angels.
I shut down my 65 gallon tank and moved my angels to my 30 gallon "community" tank. They then decided to pair up and lay eggs on the 23rd! I was shocked and unprepared.
I assumed that since this was her first time laying she would eat the eggs. And at first she did! But they have progressed every day and I am pleasantly surprised at how fast she's learning. Dad has protected the eggs and taught her well! I am letting nature take course. We have somewhere around 20 wigglers.
I'm just nervous for when the start free swimming. We'll see!

 

[Atucker681]

I know the first time my angels spawned and got to wigglers there was originally around 300-400 that time by the time they were wigglers only around 80 remained, a day after being free swimmers none were left but after that I get 100+ from spawns now that survive even more if I move the eggs

 

[Devan]

Well I think we are down to less than 10. Dad is still trying to protect them but momma is so much bigger she's pushing him around.
Do you think I should let them try it again on their own next time?
(If there is a next time.)

 

[Atucker681]

Depends on if you have space to let them grow out? Angelfish breed every two weeks roughly mine typically 10-14 days is there anything else in the tank with them and is it the first time they have spawned?

 

[Devan]

I have a 65 gallon tank that I shut down last week. If they breed successfully I can move them over to that tank.
He has spawned 20+ times with a different female fish (she died in December) but she always ate the eggs within 8 hours of laying them.
This is this females first time laying.
I have a red fin shark and two red minor tetras in there with them.

 

[Atucker681]

The sharks may eat more than the angels are the tetra I wouldn't think would eat them but the angels will eat them if they feel threatened, if you want to breed them I'd move the angels to the 65 gallon, it may take them a few times but once they get the hang of things they should spawn and survive. Be aware that you'd have to make some mods to filters I.e sponges over intakes ect to avoid fry getting sucked up or stuck

 

[Devan]

They didn't pair up until I moved them from the 65 gallon to the 30 gallon. They spawned the day after I moved them over and the two have been together for over a year.
Right. I did look into that!

 

[Atucker681]

Well leave them a few times see how they go before any decisions, bump the temp up to around 80f that should help a little

 

[Devan]

The angels are much bigger than the shark and the tetras have kept to themselves. I kind of assumed I'd have to get the shark moved out especially if they got to the free swimming stage!
Thank you for all of your advice!
I really appreciate it!

 

[Andy Sager]

The best way to have Angels and fry is to have them in a tank by themselves. As previously stated, the fish sometimes eat the eggs or fry as a protection method against the other fish in the tank getting them.
That all said, domesticated Angels are not the best parents when it comes to raising their fry. Some get it but many don't. If you are really interested in keeping a spawn of any true size to grow out, you would be best served by pulling the eggs and hatching them in anything from a 1 gallon jar to a 10 gal tank. Once they are large enough ( I usually get to this point in a 10 gal in 28-30 days), transfer them into the 65 to grow out. Air driven sponge filters work the best for this process as there is no chance of the filter doing any harm to the fry.

 

[Devan]

Thank you for your response Andy!
Do you think it would it would be best to pull the tetras as well even though they don't seem threatened by them?
Also, is it common for the male to hide the wigglers from the mom? I have noticed her moving them around but sometimes she doesn't spit them back out. So I think she is swallowing them.
I have seen the male move them from the glass to decor in the tank while she's on the other side of the tank not paying attention.

There are less than 10 left now and they are getting more aggressive towards each other. At first they would just nudge each other around and now they are starting to bite. He seems like the better care taker but.. I don't have anywhere to move the "parents" or wigglers to.
I have 10 and 65 gallon tanks. They just aren't set up right now. I know I could get the 10 gallon together pretty quick but I don't know how long before it would be safe for them. And I don't think I have a filter for that one either.
Do you possibly have any suggestions?

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you for your response Andy!
Do you think it would it would be best to pull the tetras as well even though they don't seem threatened by them?
Also, is it common for the male to hide the wigglers from the mom? I have noticed her moving them around but sometimes she doesn't spit them back out. So I think she is swallowing them.
I have seen the male move them from the glass to decor in the tank while she's on the other side of the tank not paying attention.

There are less than 10 left now and they are getting more aggressive towards each other. At first they would just nudge each other around and now they are starting to bite. He seems like the better care taker but.. I don't have anywhere to move the "parents" or wigglers to.
I have 10 and 65 gallon tanks. They just aren't set up right now. I know I could get the 10 gallon together pretty quick but I don't know how long before it would be safe for them. And I don't think I have a filter for that one either.
Do you possibly have any suggestions?

Domesticated Angels are a funny lot now. There is no one gender that takes better care of the fry all the time. Sometimes Mom, sometimes Dad, sometimes both, sometimes neither. For them, it's part learning the routine and getting used to their rolls and that does not always happen and one parent kills off the other one. It's why professional breeders ( all of them as far as I know) do not let the parents raise their own fry. There's just not enough success rate in doing that. As long as you go in knowing this is a risk, you shouldn't be surprised if it works or if it fails. That's just the nature of these fish today.

Eggs and wigglers produce no ammonia so the 10 gal would be ready to go just by setting it up and using the water they are already in. The sponge filter could be seeded with the bacteria just by swishing some of your established filter material in their current tank into the 10 gal and letting the "funky" water settle into the sponge. Since no ammonia will be produced until you start feeding the fry, cycling is not an issue at this point. Let me say that until the fry are free swimming, there isn't even the need for the sponge filter. Just an air stone will suffice. Once you are feeding, you'll also be doing water changes daily so the filter bed will grow as necessary within the fry tank. At the start, it's more important for the water to be clean than "cycled". The cycling process happens as the fry grow or when you seed the filter, the tank is already cycled.
I would suggest you read through this thread: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f82/wigglers-at-last-237956.html

That was an ongoing conversation by pro and hobbyist Angel breeders. Just about everything you need to know about breeding and raising Angels was discussed on that thread. It's a long one because there is a lot of information to know so get yourself a nice snack, reading glasses ( if you need them ) a note pad and pen, and settle in for some in-depth knowledge for your success.

 

[Devan]

Okay, Great! Thank you so much Andy! I appreciate all of the information!