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Old 09-05-2012, 04:22 PM   #1
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spawn

my jd just layed eggs the other night........this beeing my first spawn i had some questions ( just fyi: they are the only 2 in the tank, parameters are good, temp. 78-80, 55 gallon tank ) my questions are:

1) i need to do a water change, is it safe to do?
2) what temp is too hot before eggs cook and die?
3) how long before they hatch?

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Old 09-05-2012, 04:47 PM   #2
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Yes it's safe to do a WC, just don't let the eggs get exposed to air. I've kept them in the low-mid 80s with no problem so the temperature range is likely similar to that of keeping fish. They should hatch into wigglers in around 3 days.
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:03 PM   #3
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im gonna switch to a foam filter......or can i put something on my hob so they dont get sucked up?
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:29 PM   #4
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You can use a piece of filter floss wrapped around the intake tube. A piece of sponge is my favorite. I've heard of people using pantyhose also.
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:27 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by k.mascher86 View Post
im gonna switch to a foam filter......or can i put something on my hob so they dont get sucked up?

I was always told by the filter manufacturers that restricting the intake of water produces more heat in the motor and shortens the lifespan of the motor. If you are trying to save money, I would think that extending the life of your motor would be high on the priority list since the motor is most of the cost of the filter.
A sponge filter eliminates this problem because it's air driven, the fry never get sucked into the sponge (with proper airflow) and the sponge is the medium for your biological filter which keeps the water more sound and decreases the need for water changes so frequently. You can also use a carbon cartridge on most sponge filters to add some chemical filtering as well as biological.

As for changing water when eggs are present: WHY????? If the water parameters where okay for the fish to spawn in it, why are you changing it? In my day, the first water change was a minimal 10% of volume only after the eggs hatched, not before. Since you have only the 2 fish in a 55, the water parameters should not require a water change during incubation. The fish are not eating massive amounts of food so the bio load should be okay. (This should be verified through testing the water.)

Hope this helps...
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:41 PM   #6
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i was just trying to get info on what to do and what not to do.
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:05 PM   #7
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i was just trying to get info on what to do and what not to do.
That's okay There are many ways to deal with keeping fish and they all may differ for different reasons. Unfortunately, the common dinominator of fish keeping, the WATER, differs from area to area which can make some advice not advisable in your area while being fine for another area. The advice I offer is more universal as I have bred these fish in different areas of this country and foreign countries.

I also spent many years dealing in the fish business so I have spoken with manufacturers and gotten their advice on their products. I know many on this site have suggested alterations to a HOB filter which I'm sure makes the manufacturers happy because they will be selling more equipment when hobbyists do this. Personally, I'm still using machines that are so old that they are no longer even being produced because I use them properly and as intended.

For what it's worth, there is an old expression that goes " Too many cooks spoil the soup." You may want to keep this in mind when asking advice. The best advice I know comes from people doing what you are doing in the area that you are doing it in. A Local Mom & Pop Pet store might be your best source in this case. Just my opinion of course
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:20 PM   #8
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Why not do a water change? Are you implying that cleaner water is a bad idea? Or is it just paranoia?
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:03 AM   #9
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That's okay There are many ways to deal with keeping fish and they all may differ for different reasons. Unfortunately, the common dinominator of fish keeping, the WATER, differs from area to area which can make some advice not advisable in your area while being fine for another area. The advice I offer is more universal as I have bred these fish in different areas of this country and foreign countries.

I also spent many years dealing in the fish business so I have spoken with manufacturers and gotten their advice on their products. I know many on this site have suggested alterations to a HOB filter which I'm sure makes the manufacturers happy because they will be selling more equipment when hobbyists do this. Personally, I'm still using machines that are so old that they are no longer even being produced because I use them properly and as intended.

For what it's worth, there is an old expression that goes " Too many cooks spoil the soup." You may want to keep this in mind when asking advice. The best advice I know comes from people doing what you are doing in the area that you are doing it in. A Local Mom & Pop Pet store might be your best source in this case. Just my opinion of course
Well the guy was asking about JD's laying eggs. I've bred several JD's and still have a few pairs right now, the response I gave is fairly universal and doesn't require a complete worldview to be accurate.

If you have some actual data on the lifespans of filters being lessened by putting a prefilter on I'd like to see it, I've been doing it for years and know plenty of others who do the same, and I've not found myself out running to get replacements. Fluval and a few other brands actually produce a prefilter sponge that is made for that exact purpose. If it's kept clean and flow is optimized through regular maintenance it's not going to put any undue wear and tear on a filter.

It's a quick and effective fix for your average fishkeeper who may not have setups for breeding like sponge filters and air pumps laying around just for the occasion.

As far as getting advice from a local mom and pop LFS, there are a few good ones out there, but the bad ones far outweigh them. Take a look through the newbie section, you'll see the myriad of horror stories from people who took advice through their LFS. It's not that they don't know what they are doing, but their information is often very dated and fishkeeping has come a long way in the past decades. The other point is that a LFS is a business, a business that is there to sell things to consumers. So on that bias alone I would expect most people to take their suggestions and weigh them accordingly.

Too many cooks spoil the soup if you let them all put their ingredients into it, but researching and getting opinions is never a bad thing. Discernment is key, though, since people just constantly reiterating that they give great advice doesn't necessarily mean it is so. There are many here that work in breeding programs, LFS, have biology backgrounds, and many other things related to the hobby, so ultimately the best source for accurate information is in a place just like this.
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:18 AM   #10
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the lfs i got them from is legit. he has been breeding fish for 40+ years and thats who i got them from......i just always like getting your opinions cause they matter just as much as his
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:18 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by MrPillow View Post
Why not do a water change? Are you implying that cleaner water is a bad idea? Or is it just paranoia?
Back in the dark ages when I started breeding fish , the biggest trick was to get the water just right so that the fish would breed and the eggs would hatch and the fry would live. It was a 3 step process in which many aquarist only got 2 steps right more often then not. By many accounts, by people on this site, fish will breed under any circumstances and the eggs will hatch and the fry will live. I have not, in over 40 years of fish keeping, known this to be true. HOWEVER, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

My question is this:
In a sound aquarium, one that is biologicly sound, the use of water changes is mainly to "freshen" the water. In most cases however, it's being done to reduce the nitrate levels because the tanks don't have the proper amounts of nitrate consumers to do this for them. If one has a tank where the ammonia level is acceptable, the nitrite level is acceptable and the nitrate level is acceptable, WHY are you changing it for the eggs? Why risk subjecting the most fragile time in a fish's life to change? We used water changes to induce fish to breed because it simulated the experiences in the wild. In nature, the fish lived in water that is not, more often, ideal for spawning but the rains come and flush out the "bad" water and replace it with good clean water. So if the fish bred in the water after it was changed, why change it again? It was the right water for the fish to spawn in. I also believe that fish spawn when they feel the fry have the best chances of survival which is why they don't breed all the time under any circumstance. That's true for most every animal sans man. When conditions are bad, birth rates go down in most every specie. It explains why turtles, for example, can hold on to a sperm for a year waiting for the right circumstances to have it fertilize an egg. Call me old fashioned. I was just trained this way.

What strikes me funny is that I constantly see recommendations of high volume water changes and ask myself, why? If one sets up a tank and keeps it biologically sound, why the need for such high volume changes? Sounds to me like a sales ploy to sell more dechlorinator. The object is to create a stable ecologically sound environment for your fish. If you do this, why change so much water?

I realize that there are many different philisophical reasons why people keep fish the way they do. I am just explaining a system that I have used, for many years, on many different types of fish, that has proven almost fool proof, that can be done by anyone, anywhere and acheive the same results as I did. I had to produce fish because that was how I made my living. I used this method to produce higher quality fish because I am a hobbyist first and a fish breeder second. I know for a fact, there are still some fish being bred by an associate of mine that are decendants of fish I bred over 20 years ago. I find it hard to believe that that can happen with poor quality fish.

Choose to follow as you want to
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:09 AM   #12
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Well the guy was asking about JD's laying eggs. I've bred several JD's and still have a few pairs right now, the response I gave is fairly universal and doesn't require a complete worldview to be accurate.

If you have some actual data on the lifespans of filters being lessened by putting a prefilter on I'd like to see it, I've been doing it for years and know plenty of others who do the same, and I've not found myself out running to get replacements. Fluval and a few other brands actually produce a prefilter sponge that is made for that exact purpose. If it's kept clean and flow is optimized through regular maintenance it's not going to put any undue wear and tear on a filter.

It's a quick and effective fix for your average fishkeeper who may not have setups for breeding like sponge filters and air pumps laying around just for the occasion.

As far as getting advice from a local mom and pop LFS, there are a few good ones out there, but the bad ones far outweigh them. Take a look through the newbie section, you'll see the myriad of horror stories from people who took advice through their LFS. It's not that they don't know what they are doing, but their information is often very dated and fishkeeping has come a long way in the past decades. The other point is that a LFS is a business, a business that is there to sell things to consumers. So on that bias alone I would expect most people to take their suggestions and weigh them accordingly.

Too many cooks spoil the soup if you let them all put their ingredients into it, but researching and getting opinions is never a bad thing. Discernment is key, though, since people just constantly reiterating that they give great advice doesn't necessarily mean it is so. There are many here that work in breeding programs, LFS, have biology backgrounds, and many other things related to the hobby, so ultimately the best source for accurate information is in a place just like this.
We seem to butt heads frequently so I will say this, Does the pre filter you are talking about measurably reduce the water flow through the filter? If it doesn't then the fry are at risk. If you are using a larger aquarium, you get away with it more often then not. As I said, a sponge filter eliminates the possiblity all together. That's all.
As to Data on the filters, I am more referring to the hang on overflows more than canisters. I dealt with Hagen, Eugene Danner, and Marineland and was told the same by all three. Feel free to contact them directly. Ask for the design department.

As for the LFS, I see more people talking about the local Chain/ Big box store as their LFS and that I know is a disaster looking for a place to happen. At a Mom & Pop shop, bad info usually leads to a closed store which is why I recommend them as being more accurate. I do admit that I am biased in this respect as I still have friends with shops and this was my main area of work when I worked retail. My stores were noted for customer loyalty and repeat business. That was done by not selling someone just anything but selling them what they needed and that was all. Maybe your area doesn't have this type of store but many do. But regarding getting so many opinions, how is a newbie supposed to decern what is correct and what isn't? There is no accountability on websites (including this one) but there is in businesses.

If you disagree that getting local info by someone doing what you are doing or want to do is the best solution, there is nothing more I can say.

As to the "dated" information, current data must be known to keep the fish the stores are selling alive to sell. In all honesty, fish keeping hasn't really changed over the years, The machines in fish keeping have. The theories haven't. Back in the old days ( as I affectionately call the dark ages ) we cycled our aquariums with fish and called it the break in period. Today, you call it fish-in or fish-less cycling. What's different? Our chemical filtration was done with inside corner filters and metaframe bubble up outside filters filled with filter floss and charcoal. Today you have HOBs with pads made up of ....filter floss and carbon. How different is that? We created environments that kept the PH correct, the bioload in check and water stable. Today, you have chemicals and massive water changes and instability more than stability. Is that a change for the better? The fish have changed as they are mostly tank raised versions of the wild fish. Does this mean their requirements have changed? A Micky Mouse Platy (which didn't exist in the 1970s) needs different water, food, tank space, tankmates then say a Red Wag Platy that did? I'm pretty sure they don't. I could be wrong

As for my credentials, I will gladly give you the names of my former customers still in business and coworkers who can verify pretty much everything I have done since 1974. They are still in the fish business today.

As I said in a previous post, I am just trying to offer info that has been proven to be almost fool proof, that can be done by anyone, anywhere and have the same good results that I had. Follow it or don't. The choice is yours
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:45 AM   #13
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The concept of an aquarium that is self-sustaining biologically and produces nitrates in the same numbers as they are consumed by organisms occupying other niches of the nitrogen cycle is one that deals with stocking levels and styles that are for a large part, not at all of interest to the vast majority of people keeping fish. How do you go about normally maintaining this equilibrium in your systems, and under what conditions do you expect it to be achievable? Expecting every tank to be a perpetual creator/consumer of equivalent nitrogen is a seemingly moot endeavor. While it might be possible to create such a system, it is vastly more difficult to create an artificial environment which processes ALL the biological activities of an aquarium properly and not just nitrogen export. There are many other byproducts of keeping a living organism in a closed system which accumulate or are depleted which must be addressed - ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are only part of a much larger picture.

What precisely do you mean by "freshen" the water? The term is apparently ambiguous to even yourself, as you felt the need to put it in quotations...?

I am interested to hear the details of this system you speak so highly of - please elaborate to the fullest so your simple, foolproof methods might become more clear. There seems to be some form of mis-communication here, perhaps I am not understanding what you are implying with your statements.
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:19 AM   #14
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We seem to butt heads frequently
That's because you don't just give someone helpful information, you also tend to add in a comment that there's lots of ways to do something, but based on your knowledge/experience or whatever that your way is superior. We all think our ways are the best, that's why we choose to do them. We are welcome to disagree here, but when communicating in a group setting it helps to avoid doing so in a demeaning manner to others.

Quote:
so I will say this, Does the pre filter you are talking about measurably reduce the water flow through the filter? If it doesn't then the fry are at risk. If you are using a larger aquarium, you get away with it more often then not.
At risk of what? Getting sucked up against the prefilter? I've used this setup many times and have never seen fry that could not get away from the prefilter.

Quote:
As I said, a sponge filter eliminates the possiblity all together. That's all.
I agree, I have a commercial air pump powering dozens of sponge filters so I know what you mean. It doesn't mean that a prefilter isn't just as viable of an idea, especially to someone who doesn't have the gear to just throw a sponge in there.

Quote:
As to Data on the filters, I am more referring to the hang on overflows more than canisters. I dealt with Hagen, Eugene Danner, and Marineland and was told the same by all three. Feel free to contact them directly. Ask for the design department.
I don't need to contact them for anything, I have no need to. I have not had an issue with a premature filter failure due to using a prefilter sponge, nor have I heard of one. I just asked for some kind of data or example of how this particular setup reduces filter life, otherwise it just sounds like an unwarranted warning. If there is some actual data showing how using prefilters has a negative effect then I am more than happy to stop suggesting it to people. But like I said, I have used them for years, and I know many people who do as well, and there has never been a problem.

Quote:
As for the LFS, I see more people talking about the local Chain/ Big box store as their LFS and that I know is a disaster looking for a place to happen. At a Mom & Pop shop, bad info usually leads to a closed store which is why I recommend them as being more accurate. I do admit that I am biased in this respect as I still have friends with shops and this was my main area of work when I worked retail. My stores were noted for customer loyalty and repeat business. That was done by not selling someone just anything but selling them what they needed and that was all. Maybe your area doesn't have this type of store but many do.
And many don't. I have been to many LFS, probably more than most people, and I can safely say that there are a few good knowledgeable ones but there are many more that are stuck in their ways because of their 'knowledge and experience'.

Quote:
But regarding getting so many opinions, how is a newbie supposed to decern what is correct and what isn't? There is no accountability on websites (including this one) but there is in businesses.
Actually there is accountability, people here hold one another accountable. There is less accountability in a business setting (for advice giving) since you are talking to one entity who has a business/consumer relationship versus a large group of people from diverse backgrounds.

Quote:
If you disagree that getting local info by someone doing what you are doing or want to do is the best solution, there is nothing more I can say.
Yes, I disagree that picking a random LFS to get your advice from is probably not the best solution, especially in a world where a person can glean a wealth of knowledge with a simple search.

Quote:
As to the "dated" information, current data must be known to keep the fish the stores are selling alive to sell. In all honesty, fish keeping hasn't really changed over the years, The machines in fish keeping have.
It's not so much the change in technology that I was talking about, but the ideology.

Quote:
The theories haven't. Back in the old days ( as I affectionately call the dark ages ) we cycled our aquariums with fish and called it the break in period. Today, you call it fish-in or fish-less cycling. What's different?
First off, we have a better understanding of the nitrogen cycle. Because of that we have come up with means and methods to help this process along (testing for example). The ideology is different now, though. People are no longer viewing fish as expendable furniture pieces, so the fishkeeping realm has become more conscious and aware of the well-being of the fish being kept. Today, people frown on the idea of 'cycling fish'.


Quote:
Today, you have chemicals and massive water changes and instability more than stability. Is that a change for the better?
I'm not sure what you mean by this, you believe that modern fishkeeping is worse than the old days of old wives tales rather than scientific answers and solutions?

Quote:
The fish have changed as they are mostly tank raised versions of the wild fish. Does this mean their requirements have changed? A Micky Mouse Platy (which didn't exist in the 1970s) needs different water, food, tank space, tankmates then say a Red Wag Platy that did? I'm pretty sure they don't. I could be wrong
I'm not sure what point you are getting at here. Platy strain variants should have similar care requirements.

Quote:
As for my credentials, I will gladly give you the names of my former customers still in business and coworkers who can verify pretty much everything I have done since 1974. They are still in the fish business today.
I didn't ask for them, you refer to your experience in many posts so I was already well aware.

Quote:
As I said in a previous post, I am just trying to offer info that has been proven to be almost fool proof, that can be done by anyone, anywhere and have the same good results that I had. Follow it or don't. The choice is yours
That's fine to do, and your posts are good. I don't agree with everything you do, but I also don't post in and explain how I think my advice is superior to yours or the others in the forum. The truth can speak for itself. And as far as accountability goes, as members of this forum I feel that we are the ones who set that level. It's our duty to give the best information we can, and offer correction to inaccuracies when someone is being steered wrong.
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:36 AM   #15
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ok everyone just take a step back and a long deep breath. im not putting anyones credentials on the line and not holding anyone accountable cause in the end of taking in all the knowledge, its still my call on what i do. all i wanted to know was is it safe to change the water, which i did. the only reason i did was because the water looked a little murky to me. i did my reading: nitrites-0 nitrates-.25 ( i might have mixed those up, still kinda new ) ph-7.8 ammonia-0. now is that stable? that was before the water change. i also put in the foam filter which btw they are loving. if i messed anything up and the eggs dont hatch, ill take it as learning and hope for the best at the next one. i dont want to go off topic cause i really dont want to get shut down. i want to soak up all i can get from you guys. Andy: my lfs is a mom and pop store not a big named company. i live in a small town and the only places to get fish are my lfs and wal-mart......i wont even get started on them! he is an amazing guy and knows his stuff.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:39 AM   #16
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re-checked my water cause 25ppm seemed a bit high for me:

nitrites-0
nitrates-10ppm
ammonia-0
ph-7.8
temp-82°
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:56 PM   #17
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Your levels seem great! Don't worry you won't get shut down, they were just disagreeing. good job on getting them to lay eggs and like you said they will probably lay more in there life and if this batch doesn't go rig you can learn by mistakes
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Old 09-06-2012, 04:10 PM   #18
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Old 09-06-2012, 04:12 PM   #19
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Old 09-06-2012, 04:18 PM   #20
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The concept of an aquarium that is self-sustaining biologically and produces nitrates in the same numbers as they are consumed by organisms occupying other niches of the nitrogen cycle is one that deals with stocking levels and styles that are for a large part, not at all of interest to the vast majority of people keeping fish. How do you go about normally maintaining this equilibrium in your systems, and under what conditions do you expect it to be achievable? Expecting every tank to be a perpetual creator/consumer of equivalent nitrogen is a seemingly moot endeavor. While it might be possible to create such a system, it is vastly more difficult to create an artificial environment which processes ALL the biological activities of an aquarium properly and not just nitrogen export. There are many other byproducts of keeping a living organism in a closed system which accumulate or are depleted which must be addressed - ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are only part of a much larger picture.

What precisely do you mean by "freshen" the water? The term is apparently ambiguous to even yourself, as you felt the need to put it in quotations...?

I am interested to hear the details of this system you speak so highly of - please elaborate to the fullest so your simple, foolproof methods might become more clear. There seems to be some form of mis-communication here, perhaps I am not understanding what you are implying with your statements.
I'm sorry if my statements were unclear as this was not my intention. Your closing statement seems to be mixing two of my points so I will try to elaborate.

From what I can ascertain, today's hobbyist seems more about how many fish can I keep in a tank versus how many fish can I safely keep in my tank without creating an overload. Elbow room seems (at least to me) at a premium. Back in those dark ages I keep referring to, rarely were tanks so full of fish that it required a 30%, 40%, 50% or more water change to keep the fish alive and healthy. In fact, water changes of those magnitudes would kill and did kill more fish than would save them. As we have discussed, these were different fish back then.

You wrote "The concept of an aquarium that is self-sustaining biologically and produces nitrates in the same numbers as they are consumed by organisms occupying other niches of the nitrogen cycle is one that deals with stocking levels and styles that are for a large part, not at all of interest to the vast majority of people keeping fish." which actually makes me sad. You see, as someone who grew up using this technique and seeing the way it made my fish look and act and survive, it only made sense to do it. Plus, the added benefit was that it was much easier to maintain the tank and left me more time to enjoy watching my tanks and not having to work on my tanks. How this can be done can better be shown through the evolution of the saltwater wet/ dry filtering system. The concepts are the same as freshwater filtering.

The original filtering(actually, just the starting point for this conversation so as to keep this short) for saltwater tanks was with an undergravel filter. The drawback, later discovered, was that the waste material and all it's byproducts were still within the tank. Along comes the wet/ dry filter where the ammonia and nitrites were chemically changed through nitrification outside of the aquarium. Along the way, other machines were developed to enhance the water, such as protein skimmers and UV sterilizers and oxygenators that could be added to the external filter's sump and would make the water going back into the tank of a higher quality. BUT the problem still was NITRATES. Again, back in the stone age , I used to let my algae grow all along the rear glass wall of my SW tanks which consumed the nitrates and helped continue the circle of life (so to speak). The proof was that my water normally tested better than the natural ocean water we were using in the stores I worked at. It's been proven that algaes also provided extra nutrients and trace eliments to the fish that were eating the algae. It was a balancing act as to not having too many fish that would eat all the algae versus not enough algae eaters so the algae went wild and took a lot of time to keep clean. But then came the refugium filter. Most refugiums are stocked with macro algaes which are consuming the nitrates with the added benefit that if the overgrowth of plants was given to the fish to consume, the fish have those extra benefits mentioned before. NOW, a water change is no longer about lowering the nitrate level but more about adding the other elements in the water which may have been absorbed by the tank inhabitants which are not replaced by natural means in a closed system. This was what I meant by " freshening" which I used in quotations because that was the term used when I was first learning about keeping fish. No ambiguity intended.

So to incorporate this into the freshwater tank, a similar system could be created by the insertion of plant life either within the tank itself, if the fish won't destroy them, or via another tank that can be incorporated into a system
whereby the main tank's water goes into this other tank filled with plant life before returning to the main display tank. If this is too complicated a system for the average hobbyist of today, maybe reducing stock load would be a better choice for healthier fish and less maintanence. As for my home tanks, they were not overstocked and used plant life for a more balanced environment or water changes whenever the fish would make keeping plants unwise. This, again, was before centralization of systems which I wouldn't have been able to do anyway under the conditions I was keeping most of my fish tanks( in my bedroom) that were not in my hatchery building.

So to bring this back to the OP's question about water change, it seems that the Nitrate level has become such an overwhelming concern with everybody that it causes the hobbyist to overreact and do things not necessary at the wrong times. If a fish lays eggs in water that has a nitrate reading of 25 ppm and no ammonia or nitrite levels, why would you change the water? I could see it being a good idea if the fish produced viable eggs and fry before but under these conditions, the eggs didn't hatch or the fry didn't survive after hatching. But to do it because the level isn't "0" per say or because it's, say, Tuesday and my regular wc schedule is to change water on Tuesday, just doesn't make sense to me. That was all I was saying.

As to my "fool proof" methods of breeding fish, yes, I have developed systems and techniques for the many varieties of fish I have bred, that if followed, are almost guaranteed to yield good results. This, of course, is dependant on the quality of the breeder fish themselves. In today's fish, there are years of genetic flaws that have been passed on from generation to generation which now, more than ever, means that in order to have any measurable amount of good fry to survive, you need to have the highest possible hatchout ratio. Now, I'm not saying that my way is the best way, or the only way or that my Dad can hit your Dad harder ( just a joke), I'm just offering to explain how I acheived this by using these methods. I'm pretty sure that I didn't start any reply in this or any other thread with " YOU HAVE TO DO THIS MY WAY OR ELSE YOU WILL FAIL!!!!" because I know that this is not a true statement. Whether you want to try my methods and see for yourself or just want to continue doing things your own way is your choice. I don't have a problem with either way.

I believe I have adequately explained my position and this portion of the conversation really needs to end now so that we can help the OP with this spawning of eggs. If you'd like to continue it, I suggest you start another thread
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