🆘 : Bewildering, mysterious behaviour change in Betta—there appears to be a neurological element (Hope ANDY sees this!!!)

[Andy Sager]

Hope uncan see this. There’s a pinprick-sized ball that looks like fungus…?

The salt in the water should help with that. Just make sure it isn't growing.

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy, i can’t thank u enough for the guidance/tutelage u’ve been providing—i hope u know how grateful i am/how valued u r.

This learning process has been painful at times, altho wildly edifying. Observing this poor lil guy suffer thru whatever is afflicting him is extremely challenging. The black background & minimal size of the mostly empty habitat makes it easier to see that there’s more than one of those ‘pinprick-sized’ spots of fungus or whatever the heck it is (is it fungus? ich?).

He goes to the top (hangs, swims a bit—no apparent breathing issues); eventually he positions himself at the tank bottom—sometimes lapses (partially) onto his side. He did this just now, then snapped out of it & rtn’d to the tank top.

Sometimes he appears close to ‘normal’.

Is it possible to describe (or mebbe there’s a vid?) what type of swimming behaviour would be a flag to attempt feeding?

(The wee tank is now heated.)

 

[EGGBERT]

PS, Dangit—forgot to ask: it’s great to know that the nerites tolerate salt water (i’m not bucking for babies, but if they happen, i have a source to sell or trade with them), but what about the PLANTS? They’d be kaput, no?

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, i can’t thank u enough for the guidance/tutelage u’ve been providing—i hope u know how grateful i am/how valued u r.

You're welcome.

This learning process has been painful at times, altho wildly edifying. Observing this poor lil guy suffer thru whatever is afflicting him is extremely challenging. The black background & minimal size of the mostly empty habitat makes it easier to see that there’s more than one of those ‘pinprick-sized’ spots of fungus or whatever the heck it is (is it fungus? ich?).

Sadly, it could be fungus or it could be Epistylis. Fungus is quite common in Bettas that get too cold. Slowly raise the temperature ( 2 degrees F every 6 hours) until you get it to 78-80. If it's fungus, it shouldn't grow in the warmer water and there should be no new spots. If it is growing or you see more spots start to develop, he'll need to be treated with more than just salt.

He goes to the top (hangs, swims a bit—no apparent breathing issues); eventually he positions himself at the tank bottom—sometimes lapses (partially) onto his side. He did this just now, then snapped out of it & rtn’d to the tank top.

That doesn't sound like " normal" behavior so I wouldn't try feeding just yet. The fish does not look like he's starving so he should be able to handle some time with no food.

Sometimes he appears close to ‘normal’.

Is it possible to describe (or mebbe there’s a vid?) what type of swimming behaviour would be a flag to attempt feeding?

Like when you first got him. If he ain't swimmin' like that, he's not swimming normal.

(The wee tank is now heated.)

 

[Andy Sager]

PS, Dangit—forgot to ask: it’s great to know that the nerites tolerate salt water (i’m not bucking for babies, but if they happen, i have a source to sell or trade with them), but what about the PLANTS? They’d be kaput, no?

Depends on the plants. Some are more salt tolerate than others.

Just an FYI, if his main tank is the one with the Cyano, now would be a good time to get as much of it out as you can and address why it's still growing. I found this video of ways to get rid of Cyano that you should watch then do. Google Search

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy,THANKS for all the input & the vids on cyano (have viewed).

The patient is ok—no further deterioration visible; hasn’t eaten for a few days but left a single poo from the last time(s) he did. Don’t think he’s ready yet, but from outside the tank i will flash a couple of tweezer-held bloodworms to see if that gets a rise outta him.

The heater in the wee tank is pre-set to warm the tank to 80F; is this ok, or do i need to acquire a heater w/temp control (for temps 80+F)?

For evaporation replenishment of the saline in the nano tank, is it ok to add the salt to a gallon jug of distilled water?

He wasn’t in the saline solution for a full day on Sunday, but technically, today (Tue) is day 3. I’m assuming he needs to stay there until he’s (best case) normalized/cured? Please advise. TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy,THANKS for all the input & the vids on cyano (have viewed).

The patient is ok—no further deterioration visible; hasn’t eaten for a few days but left a single poo from the last time(s) he did. Don’t think he’s ready yet, but from outside the tank i will flash a couple of tweezer-held bloodworms to see if that gets a rise outta him.

If you get some interest from him, then let him eat a little bit. If he shows no interest, don't leave the food in there for him because it will only foul the water. The poo in the tank is a good sign he's not constipated.

The heater in the wee tank is pre-set to warm the tank to 80F; is this ok, or do i need to acquire a heater w/temp control (for temps 80+F)?

Try to avoid buying pre-set heaters. Not every fish can handle a rapid rise in temp. A rapid rise from 69-74 to 80 degrees is a lot for a fish to handle. Hopefully it will work out. It's too late now to change it if the heater did its job.

For evaporation replenishment of the saline in the nano tank, is it ok to add the salt to a gallon jug of distilled water?

In post #40 I addressed this. The salt does not evaporate so you don't replace evaporated water with salted water. You replace water you remove for a water change with salted water. In this case, you replace evaporated water with your tap water after you remove the chlorine or chloramine. This will help replenish more minerals than just sodium. If you are talking about making more salted water by using distilled water, there are better supplements to remineralize distilled/ RO water. Seachem Replenish would be a better choice to remineralize distilled water. I don't recall what your tap water GH is but unless it's 0, it is going to have minerals like Calcium, Potassium and Magnesium ( most likely) and all of those are good for fish to absorb. Straight distilled or pure RO water is not good for fish because they both lack any minerals, which is not good for fish. YOu use them because they are clean water but you have to remineralize it first. Have you been using distilled water all this time for the Bettas and the other fish?

He wasn’t in the saline solution for a full day on Sunday, but technically, today (Tue) is day 3. I’m assuming he needs to stay there until he’s (best case) normalized/cured? Please advise. TY

No, today is day 2 if he wasn't in the salted water for a full day on Sunday. Is he looking better? You said he was. Does he act like he wants to eat? We'll see. There is no harm in him staying in water with that level of salt in it forever. Salt is not a medication like the AquaCura or Metrplex is so there is no harm in him being in it long term. If he's looking better and acting better with just adding salt to the water, it shows this was not a disease or pathogen causing the issue but a water quality issue which the salt is helping remedy so no need for other meds. As I said in the beginning of this whole episode, there were multiple possibilities of the cause so you have to address each possibility one at a time to eliminate what isn't the cause.

 

[EGGBERT]

Hey Andy… Firstly, i haven’t been using distilled water; i needed a gallon container, so purchased one w/distilled h2o—figured, kill 2 cockroaches w/one boot—i can use the distilled fluid for something unrelated.

Re how he ‘appears’—def a bit better, but i’m not jumping the gun & i’m willing to be patient.

Re possible feeding; when he’s ‘normal’, he recognizes feeding-related actions—so he’ll react to me when he sees i’m about to introduce something. Today i held a few bloodworms outside the tank to see if he’d react—he’ll still react to ‘me’—eg, if i use a finger to get his attention; he didn’t show enthusiasm for the proffered temptation, but he loves the teeny Hikari betta pellets i feed him; wondering if i should put even one of them in the feeding ring—i could remove it immediately if he doesn’t go for it. Should i try that or wait until tomorrow?

Re ‘water quality’, please believe me: i’m very responsible/consistent w/water changes, siphoning out the cyano, & periodically rinsing the sponges & other material in the filter; parameters have been ‘perfect’—no deviation. I attribute that in part to the minimal population & my doggedness.

Honestly, apart from the nerites introducing something nefarious, i don’t understand why the betta got afflicted w/whatever he’s suffering from.

I read about epistylis—sounds pretty grim. Epistylis ‘breakouts’ were described as being ‘oval’, vs the ‘roundness’ of ich breakouts. Do u agree?

The ‘spots’ i’ve seen r definitely NOT increasing—they ‘might’ have shrunk, but they’re not gone yet. When he swims—even when he’s just ‘hanging’ (literally) his fins r mostly open, vs clamped. Is that meaningful (re recovery process)?

I’m poised to employ the AquaCura product on Thu, but hope i don’t have to

Btw, i looked up ‘saline tolerant’ aquatic plants—all of my tanks have 2 that topped the list: anubius & java fern—altho they were associated w/‘brackish’ vs ‘marine’-type salinity. Do u have an opinion on this?

Btw, the heater has the nano tank at 78F; should i get a heater that’s controllable (so i can get the temp to 80+) or is 78 adequate (the temp rose over several hrs—wasn’t abrupt).

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy… Firstly, i haven’t been using distilled water; i needed a gallon container, so purchased one w/distilled h2o—figured, kill 2 cockroaches w/one boot—i can use the distilled fluid for something unrelated.

Whew!!!

Re how he ‘appears’—def a bit better, but i’m not jumping the gun & i’m willing to be patient.

You have to be.

Re possible feeding; when he’s ‘normal’, he recognizes feeding-related actions—so he’ll react to me when he sees i’m about to introduce something. Today i held a few bloodworms outside the tank to see if he’d react—he’ll still react to ‘me’—eg, if i use a finger to get his attention; he didn’t show enthusiasm for the proffered temptation, but he loves the teeny Hikari betta pellets i feed him; wondering if i should put even one of them in the feeding ring—i could remove it immediately if he doesn’t go for it. Should i try that or wait until tomorrow?

Put one pellet in the ring and remove it if he doesn't eat it in 10-15 minutes.

Re ‘water quality’, please believe me: i’m very responsible/consistent w/water changes, siphoning out the cyano, & periodically rinsing the sponges & other material in the filter; parameters have been ‘perfect’—no deviation. I attribute that in part to the minimal population & my doggedness.

With all due respect, if you have cyano, you don't have great water quality. "Cyanobacteria, or cyano algae, grow in large blooms due to a combination of high nutrients (nitrates, phosphates), warm water temperatures, and poor water circulation or stagnant conditions. Factors like overfeeding, overstocking, infrequent water changes, and certain lighting conditions in aquariums can contribute to these conditions. " FYI, I've raised thousands of Bettas in cups, bowls, tanks, flats, vases and buckets and never had cyano. I change(d) a lot of water so there was never an overabundance of anything. Just sayin'

Honestly, apart from the nerites introducing something nefarious, i don’t understand why the betta got afflicted w/whatever he’s suffering from.

It could have come from nipping at the Cyano. If he reacts well to the salt, it points to a lack of minerals in your water. Deterioration happens over time. Think of it like the play "Arsenic and old lace." A little bit doesn't kill you today. A little bit every day eventually will kill you.

I read about epistylis—sounds pretty grim. Epistylis ‘breakouts’ were described as being ‘oval’, vs the ‘roundness’ of ich breakouts. Do u agree?

They are definitely not round like Ich. With Ich, it happens when the fish is stressed and the parasite feeds on the fish. With Epistylis, the parasite is living on the fish's scales and eating the bacteria on the fish's skin. Neither is good but Epi is a better issue to have if you have access to antibiotics. Kill the bacteria and you starve the parasites.

The ‘spots’ i’ve seen r definitely NOT increasing—they ‘might’ have shrunk, but they’re not gone yet. When he swims—even when he’s just ‘hanging’ (literally) his fins r mostly open, vs clamped. Is that meaningful (re recovery process)?

Good sign.

I’m poised to employ the AquaCura product on Thu, but hope i don’t have to

Don't do anything with new meds if the fish is eating and/or swimming around normally.

Btw, i looked up ‘saline tolerant’ aquatic plants—all of my tanks have 2 that topped the list: anubius & java fern—altho they were associated w/‘brackish’ vs ‘marine’-type salinity. Do u have an opinion on this?

There is no difference between marine salinity and brackish salinity besides the concentration of the salt level. The chemical makeup is the same. If they will live in brackish water, they should live in the salted water. Here's the catch tho, they should be acclimated slowly to salted water. Not an easy task when you need to have the fish in a salinity immediately. If you are going to do a good scrubbing of the tank to get rid of the cyano, I'd remove the plants and if it turns out that you need to have the salted water on a regular basis, acclimate the plants in a separate bucket or tank as follows: "To acclimate plants to a brackish water setup, slowly increase the salinity over a week or two with slow, gradual water changes to gradually increase salinity over several weeks to months until the target level is reached. Patience is key, so make sure to allow the plants several weeks to adjust to each salinity change and observe them for any signs of stress like melting before proceeding further. " So you see, it's not a quick thing to do for plants while it's much faster for fish.

Btw, the heater has the nano tank at 78F; should i get a heater that’s controllable (so i can get the temp to 80+) or is 78 adequate (the temp rose over several hrs—wasn’t abrupt).

Well, if it took several hours for a heater to take 1 gallon of water from 69-78, it must not be the greatest of heaters. But 78 is fine for the fish. Since this is a temporary tank, no need to spend more money. In the future tho, when looking for heaters, I do not suggest pre-set types.

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy, u wrote:

“With all due respect, if you have cyano, you don't have great water quality. "Cyanobacteria, or cyano algae, grow in large blooms due to a combination of high nutrients (nitrates, phosphates), warm water temperatures, and poor water circulation or stagnant conditions. Factors like overfeeding, overstocking, infrequent water changes, and certain lighting conditions in aquariums can contribute to these conditions.”

Respectfully, i don’t overfeed & i do a weekly water change (as well as regularly siphoning out debris).

In the betta’s 5gal there’s both aeration & filtration—at low settings due to betta requirements (‘still’ vs rapidly moving water).

Last water change was Nov 28; rinsed/scrubbed the filtration components (in tank water) on Oct 19—will do the whole 9 yards today.

In the 5gal, the snails have been subsisting on algae (i’ve introduced algae tabs to supplement their diet—no interest—so i siphon out promptly). The betta has only been fed the Hikari food—4 pellets a few times/day—normally consumed immediately—he used to bottom feed as well, but recently has only shown interest in the Hikari mini pellets.

U said the cyano is partly encouraged by “high nutrients”—including nitrate—perhaps that’s why all the readings—including nitrate—r “0”—is it possible the cyano is depleting the nitrate?

Following on the cyano-eradication vids, i obtained the referenced Fritz product (SlimeOut)—will figure it out…

Re ‘patient status’ ()… Offered a pellet—ignored, so i swiftly removed. He’s mostly at tank top, but will drift to the bottom; sometimes (at top or bottom) he drifts onto his side, but immediately rights himself.

I’m wondering if ‘patience’ continues to be the byword here or if i should just bite the bullet & escort him to ‘the other side’ Please weigh in on this.

Another betta health/survival Q:
The female betta is sharing a tank w/several ram’s horn snails (i’m hoping that the source who took my assassins might be interested in the RHs).

In the meantime i’m having a devil of a time maintaining water parameters; i have TWO filters (+ aerator & heater) in this nano tank (2.5gals—what i’d last used as a hospital tank for the loach—[remember? the ‘slidey’one, who’s fine, btw]).

Yes: i’m acutely aware of the challenges of smaller tanks. I change the h2o every couple of days. I’m concerned about the ammonia, which appears to be a scintilla above ‘0’ (my colour perception is acute—i also have a visual art background, & colour is my strong suit!!!).
Anyway, the tested fluid is faintly (faintly) tinged toward green, so i’m thinking of putting the betta in the 10gal w/the assassins (water parameters r stable; the nitrate rises, but i do h2o changes every few days to control that). Do u think it would be foolish to put her in the 10gal? ‘ROOM’ is not a concern—WATER PARAMETERS is the concern. Please advise. TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, u wrote:

“With all due respect, if you have cyano, you don't have great water quality. "Cyanobacteria, or cyano algae, grow in large blooms due to a combination of high nutrients (nitrates, phosphates), warm water temperatures, and poor water circulation or stagnant conditions. Factors like overfeeding, overstocking, infrequent water changes, and certain lighting conditions in aquariums can contribute to these conditions.”

Respectfully, i don’t overfeed & i do a weekly water change (as well as regularly siphoning out debris).

Here's the thing, in order to have certain things happen in fish tanks, other things HAVE to happen or be happening. For example, in order for there to be nitrifying microbes working in a tank, there needs to be an ammonia source AND a pH higher than 6.0 and a pH lower than 11.3. A pH outside of this range will not allow nitrification no matter how much ammonia is present. A pH in this range with no ammonia source will not develop nitrifying microbes. Both things have to be happening at the same time. In order for one to have algae, any kind of algae, there needs to be nutrients AND a lighting range. Too much light in the presence of algae and nutrients and you get green algae. Not enough light in the presence of nutrients and you get brown algaes. And my last most favorite explanation If you take a sobriety balloon test and it comes back positive for Beer, even tho you weren't drinking the beer when you took the test, you HAD to have drunk it before in order to get that result Now, in your case, Cyano is a bacteria not an algae and in order for that to exist and grow, certain things have to be happening in the water. You must have had nutrients AND warm water AND low water circulation in order to have the Cyano get a hold in your tank. I can't say how it got in there in the first place ( probably on a plant? ) but you had to have those criteria when it was introduced and it continues which is why you have Cyano that won't die off. Maybe the nutrient is phosphate? Have you or the pet shop checked your phosphate level in the tank and your tap water? Time to dig deeper.

In the betta’s 5gal there’s both aeration & filtration—at low settings due to betta requirements (‘still’ vs rapidly moving water).

Last water change was Nov 28; rinsed/scrubbed the filtration components (in tank water) on Oct 19—will do the whole 9 yards today.

In the 5gal, the snails have been subsisting on algae (i’ve introduced algae tabs to supplement their diet—no interest—so i siphon out promptly). The betta has only been fed the Hikari food—4 pellets a few times/day—normally consumed immediately—he used to bottom feed as well, but recently has only shown interest in the Hikari mini pellets.

This is why it's not a good thing to feed only one type of food. The bigger the variety, the better.

U said the cyano is partly encouraged by “high nutrients”—including nitrate—perhaps that’s why all the readings—including nitrate—r “0”—is it possible the cyano is depleting the nitrate?

ABSOLUTELY!! It could also be phosphates. Have them checked in your tank and tap water.

Following on the cyano-eradication vids, i obtained the referenced Fritz product (SlimeOut)—will figure it out…

Good, since you can't get antibiotics. The right antibiotic can knock cyano out quickly but without that, it's harder to do. ( Curse you people who made the Governments ban antibiotics for fish people. )

Re ‘patient status’ ()… Offered a pellet—ignored, so i swiftly removed. He’s mostly at tank top, but will drift to the bottom; sometimes (at top or bottom) he drifts onto his side, but immediately rights himself.

I’m wondering if ‘patience’ continues to be the byword here or if i should just bite the bullet & escort him to ‘the other side’ Please weigh in on this.

It's only been 2 1/2 - 3 days. Sheeseh. Is he still darting around like you first described? Is he still clamped? If not, he's getting better. We still don't know what the main cause was. If it was poisoning from the cyano, recovery may take weeks since cyano poisoning effects organs like the liver, kidneys, etc. and those can take weeks to fully recover. If he picked up the cyano from picking at food that fell to the bottom or on top of the bacteria, he knows now not to feed at the bottom. Bottom line, in my book, as long as the fish is breathing ( within reason), you have a chance to cure it. You better get really good at patience here and follow directions if you want to cure this fish otherwise, if you want to just give up, it's up to you. It's your fish. ( Sorry to be blunt but what I suspect happened and what I'm currently helping you treat him for ( 2 different things) are not fast turn arounds. It's going to take time. )

Another betta health/survival Q:
The female betta is sharing a tank w/several ram’s horn snails (i’m hoping that the source who took my assassins might be interested in the RHs).

In the meantime i’m having a devil of a time maintaining water parameters; i have TWO filters (+ aerator & heater) in this nano tank (2.5gals—what i’d last used as a hospital tank for the loach—[remember? the ‘slidey’one, who’s fine, btw]).

Yes: i’m acutely aware of the challenges of smaller tanks. I change the h2o every couple of days. I’m concerned about the ammonia, which appears to be a scintilla above ‘0’ (my colour perception is acute—i also have a visual art background, & colour is my strong suit!!!).

You may have some ammonia but keep in mind, in a small tank, too many anythings ( snails, copepods, fish, worms, etc,) will give you an ammonia reading at some point of the day. The question is are you seeing nitrites too? If you are getting 0 nitrites and positive readings for nitrates, your microbe bed is functioning properly. If that is the case, you have choices: get rid of most of the snails or continue to have to do water changes every couple of days until you do so. A 2 1/2 gallon tank should only have a couple of ramshorns in it to not be overloaded. I'll bet there are more than 2 snails in there.

Anyway, the tested fluid is faintly (faintly) tinged toward green, so i’m thinking of putting the betta in the 10gal w/the assassins (water parameters r stable; the nitrate rises, but i do h2o changes every few days to control that). Do u think it would be foolish to put her in the 10gal? ‘ROOM’ is not a concern—WATER PARAMETERS is the concern. Please advise. TY

If the 10 is the one with the Cyano, no, do not put her in there until you get rid of the cyano 100%. If the 10 only has the other snails in it, it would be your choice as long as that tank's parameters are stable. Let me show you again how I kept my breeder Bettas: These needed water changes 3 times a week. ( largest jar was 2 quarts. ) They produced hundreds of babies. They got 100% water changes every change. Keep an eye on the ammonia in the male's hospital tank. Make sure if it rises, you do a 100% water change with the pre-made salted water. Put the fish in a clean soap free cup or bowl while changing the water. If the replacement salted water is less than 76 degrees, you can warm it by letting the bottle sit in a bowl or sink with water from the tap heated to 78 degrees before you do the water change. Make sure you unplug the heater before emptying the tank.

 

[EGGBERT]

U r correct: the 2.5gal has about half a dozen RHs: i’d removed them from the 20gal because i knew they’d proliferate wildly (they were hitchhikers that survived a peroxide soak). Naturally, they’ve been reproducing in the 2.5gal that i put the female betta in.
When she was introduced, she immediately started to eat any ‘snaillets’ she saw.

I will continue to be patient w/the afflicted one.
The 10gal that houses the assassins has stable parameters (it’s the 5gal that’s Cyano City)—so i think i’ll put the fem in there.

Before i hit the hay tonite i’ll test the saline the male is in & replace if there’s a spike in ammonia.

I’ll get a kit to measure phosphate (my neighbourhood pet store stopped carrying fish & most associated paraphernalia; the one that i brought my assassins to requires a special trip, so best deal is getting my own kit).
(I do have a GH/KH measuring kit; was told the results were favourable for plants).

Re your betta breeding: the water u’ve kept them in was conditioned but not cycled? & that’s suitable for bettas?
Different sources list different statistics re the lifespan of various species; for bettas, i’ve read that they can live past 5yrs under optimal conditions. The store i brought my assassins to have kind of a mascot betta who’s around 6yrs—what’s your experience w/their lifespan?

 

[Andy Sager]

U r correct: the 2.5gal has about half a dozen RHs: i’d removed them from the 20gal because i knew they’d proliferate wildly (they were hitchhikers that survived a peroxide soak). Naturally, they’ve been reproducing in the 2.5gal that i put the female betta in.
When she was introduced, she immediately started to eat any ‘snaillets’ she saw.

I will continue to be patient w/the afflicted one.
The 10gal that houses the assassins has stable parameters (it’s the 5gal that’s Cyano City)—so i think i’ll put the fem in there.

Before i hit the hay tonite i’ll test the saline the male is in & replace if there’s a spike in ammonia.

I’ll get a kit to measure phosphate (my neighbourhood pet store stopped carrying fish & most associated paraphernalia; the one that i brought my assassins to requires a special trip, so best deal is getting my own kit).
(I do have a GH/KH measuring kit; was told the results were favourable for plants).

That's always best to have your own kits. Plants thrive in water with phosphates or nitrates ( nitrogen) so don't be surprised if your tap water doesn't test for nitrates, that it has phosphates.

Re your betta breeding: the water u’ve kept them in was conditioned but not cycled? & that’s suitable for bettas?

My water is well water so no chlorine or chloramine in this house. In my hatchery in Miami, we had a central filtering system by Culligan which removed the chloramines. As for being cycled, you only need a biological filter if you allow ammonia to accumulate. In cups or bowls where there is 100% water changes being done frequently, little to no ammonia is ever present. In Miami, I could spend a whole day just changing Betta water in cups and bowls because there were so many. That is why I made systems in this last hatchery to have auto flow of water or shallow vats for cups.

Different sources list different statistics re the lifespan of various species; for bettas, i’ve read that they can live past 5yrs under optimal conditions. The store i brought my assassins to have kind of a mascot betta who’s around 6yrs—what’s your experience w/their lifespan?

I saw a documentary many years ago that involved a 9 year old Betta. It was a study fish trying to figure out the health benefits of certain foods. The fish was held in a 20 gallon long tank and was chased around the tank daily to "exercise" it to avoid any complications of the fish getting fat. The end result was that the manufactured foods of the time for Bettas played a large part in the shortened lifespans. The diet is 75% of the fish's longevity with the water quality taking up the remaining 25%. For Bettas, they are not big swimmers so big spaces are more for the people, not the male. The females do more moving as they are the ones looking for where the males are to breed with. The whole Anabantid family ( Bettas, Gouramis, Paradisefish, etc) evolved to live in poorly oxygenated slow moving water. This is why they can be kept in tanks or containers with no filtration. In fact, to breed any of those species, you need near still water for the fry to survive. This is an old plastic sweater box I used to breed Bettas in. Notice there is no filtration or aeration at all. The fry stay in there for near a month. The nest is built underneath that piece of lettuce. The male was one of my doubletail males. Here he is in his home: You can see how horny he is by all the bubbles in his bowl.

 

[EGGBERT]

Geez, Andy—i wish i’d known u when my mom was living in Ft Lauderdale!!!

So, i executed 2 big tasks tonight: changed the patient’s saline & moved the fem-bet into the 10gal w/the assassins (sounds brutal, huh). All went pretty smoothly. I don’t know whether this is a positive or a happenstance factor, but for a sick fish, he was really resistant to being removed from his hospital room What’s your opinion?

I’m thinking of having a ‘sorority’ in the 10gal—i’d get 2 other females—i LOVE bettas, & get this Andy: as i write this i’m sitting before the 20gal, & mind-blowingly, it looks like a couple of the hillstreams r mating!!!!! WT*!!!!!
& that’s not all… I didn’t see ‘nuptial pads’ on the forearms of either of my Af dwarf frogs, so i ‘assumed’ they were both females—then, a couple of nights ago one of them started vocalizing—the next morning they were locked in that coital posture that aquatic frogs assume I must be doing ‘something’ right to have fashioned environments that they get randy in, huh?!!! One more thing—in the animal kingdom, does any critter other than homo sapiens have voyeuristic proclivities?
The male frog seemed to recognize what the loaches were indulging in—& he WATCHED

The loaches have no shame: the frog didn’t disrupt them—& they couldn’t care less about me sitting inches from them, nor the cat who’s lying parallel to the rear side of the tank…
Hilarious

 

[Andy Sager]

Geez, Andy—i wish i’d known u when my mom was living in Ft Lauderdale!!!

Too bad is right. If you came to my hatchery then, you'd probably repeat what most who saw it said, " HOLY SH*T!!!!!! "

So, i executed 2 big tasks tonight: changed the patient’s saline & moved the fem-bet into the 10gal w/the assassins (sounds brutal, huh). All went pretty smoothly. I don’t know whether this is a positive or a happenstance factor, but for a sick fish, he was really resistant to being removed from his hospital room What’s your opinion?

Sometimes fish don't know what's good for them.

I’m thinking of having a ‘sorority’ in the 10gal—i’d get 2 other females—i LOVE bettas

Just beware, not all females will get along with each other either. A 10 gallon tank is not really a big enough tank for "sororities" unless you have a really heavily planted tank with lots of frilly plants so they can hide from each other. Bettas are not schooling or shoaling fish, males or females. They are solidary fish by nature.

, & get this Andy: as i write this i’m sitting before the 20gal, & mind-blowingly, it looks like a couple of the hillstreams r mating!!!!! WT*!!!!!
& that’s not all… I didn’t see ‘nuptial pads’ on the forearms of either of my Af dwarf frogs, so i ‘assumed’ they were both females—then, a couple of nights ago one of them started vocalizing—the next morning they were locked in that coital posture that aquatic frogs assume I must be doing ‘something’ right to have fashioned environments that they get randy in, huh?!!! One more thing—in the animal kingdom, does any critter other than homo sapiens have voyeuristic proclivities?
The male frog seemed to recognize what the loaches were indulging in—& he WATCHED

There's an old theory that spawning fish release a hormone that makes other fish want to spawn as well. I know breeders who would take water from spawning tanks to add to tanks with reluctant spawners and they would spawn so I don't poo poo that possibility. In your case, this may be an example of it in action.

The loaches have no shame: the frog didn’t disrupt them—& they couldn’t care less about me sitting inches from them, nor the cat who’s lying parallel to the rear side of the tank…
Hilarious

Well, hopefully you get some more fry from that. Watching fish spawn was always a treat for me. It still is, even after all these years and spawnings I've watched

 

[EGGBERT]

Hey Andy… That theory about the release of a procreation-stimulating hormone into an aquarium makes a lotta sense

Re the patient…
He’s ok—fins frequently fully spread—he’s mostly at the tank’s top—still hasn’t eaten (offered a single bloodworm—i’ll try again later—also w/a pellet…)

The Prazi-Mat (AquaCura product) arrived today. Each pkt (there r 10 of them) treats 10gals (i can subdivide for the nanotank).

Each pkt contains 250mg metronidazole & 75mg praziquantel (i’ve attached a screenshot of the instructions). I’d like to use it—r u strongly opposed to that? Please advise.

Re a prospective ‘sorority’, the 10gal is heavily planted—has many hiding spots—so i may go forward w/getting a couple more females (everything i’ve read recommends a minimum of ‘3’). Will report back when/if i go ahead w/this.

Haven’t received the SlimeOut yet; later today i’ll do a scrub of the 5gal (remember: right now it’s housing just the 2 nerites), which isn’t badly infested, thankfully.
U said snails r tolerant of the ‘prazi’—what about the ‘metro’? I’d like to treat the 5gal w/the product; pkge says ‘harmless to plants’—doesn’t mention invertebrates—i can/will do a search on it.

Do u happen to know if these chemicals r harmful to frog or loach eggs? Don’t have any troublesome issues in the 20gal, but need to know for another reason…

Have u ever dealt w/an eggbound fem betta? I’ve heard that if their egg load isn’t released, they can die (implosion?)—how likely r females to carry eggs without the stimulus of a mate?

 

[EGGBERT]

(The screenshot)

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy… That theory about the release of a procreation-stimulating hormone into an aquarium makes a lotta sense

Like I said, it's an old theory that's been around for decades. I know some breeders swear by it. I've never needed to try it. I have the opposite problem, I can't get fish to stop breeding. No hormones are necessary. I just use my animal magnetism, soft lighting and good mood music ( maybe a bottle of wine as well). LOL

Re the patient…
He’s ok—fins frequently fully spread—he’s mostly at the tank’s top—still hasn’t eaten (offered a single bloodworm—i’ll try again later—also w/a pellet…)

If his organs were effected, it makes sense that he doesn't want to eat yet.

The Prazi-Mat (AquaCura product) arrived today. Each pkt (there r 10 of them) treats 10gals (i can subdivide for the nanotank).

Each pkt contains 250mg metronidazole & 75mg praziquantel (i’ve attached a screenshot of the instructions). I’d like to use it—r u strongly opposed to that? Please advise.

This is how I see it: He was clamped, darting around the tank and stopped feeding. The fish now is no longer clamped, no longer darting around the tank and while he's still not eating, those 2 progressions are signs of recovery. That means no other medication is necessary because the issues no longer point to an internal parasite or brain worm. If that were still the case, the fish would not have made these 2 advances. It's not that I'm strongly opposed to using it, I just don't think it's necessary and could possibly do more harm than good since you are going to be guessing on the correct dose in a small amount of water. Underdosing will be useless an overdosing could be lethal. It would take crushing the pill into powder or measuring the powder from the packet with a gram scale to even come close to applying the correct dose. Do you have a gram scale?

Re a prospective ‘sorority’, the 10gal is heavily planted—has many hiding spots—so i may go forward w/getting a couple more females (everything i’ve read recommends a minimum of ‘3’). Will report back when/if i go ahead w/this

All I can say is that it's a risk. I know I used to sell my females to a buddy who displayed them in a single tank ( a 10 gallon actually) for sale. When I'd bring him more and there were leftovers from the last batch or from another seller, the next day he had a tank of unsaleable fish because they were beat to crap. He finally listened to me and put the females in bowls like the males so they could be sold immediately.

.

Haven’t received the SlimeOut yet; later today i’ll do a scrub of the 5gal (remember: right now it’s housing just the 2 nerites), which isn’t badly infested, thankfully.
U said snails r tolerant of the ‘prazi’—what about the ‘metro’? I’d like to treat the 5gal w/the product; pkge says ‘harmless to plants’—doesn’t mention invertebrates—i can/will do a search on it.

The metronidazole is questionable. I'd contact the manufacturer to confirm it's safety for snails and/or your frogs.

Do u happen to know if these chemicals r harmful to frog or loach eggs? Don’t have any troublesome issues in the 20gal, but need to know for another reason…

I would not use these meds in any tank with eggs. The embryos and fry are not able to handle full strength medications. Fish or frog eggs do not have hard shells so they absorb everything in the water.

Have u ever dealt w/an eggbound fem betta? I’ve heard that if their egg load isn’t released, they can die (implosion?)—how likely r females to carry eggs without the stimulus of a mate?

Fish generally can get eggbound when under stress, have a poor diet, poor water quality, genetic faults and even under the best conditions, this can still happen. As for them getting it BECAUSE they have no mate, I don't find that to be a major cause. Female fish are hatched with ovaries which means when they become sexually mature, those ovaries will be filled with eggs. Males had nothing to do with that. I will say that I've read numerous posts on other sites where females were just arbitrarily squeezing out eggs without any males in the tank. This may be from poor genetics as this is not a normal procedure with Betta breeding. Todays Bettas are a genetic conglomeration of different strains, traits and who knows what else so anything is possible.

 

[EGGBERT]

I ordered a gram scale—will arrive Sunday. He appears OK-ish (attached some pix of various postures). He’s got this patch of fungus(?) just under his maw (included among the pix—quality poor—but hopefully visible). I’m hoping the ‘prazi-mat’ will be a TKO—is it ok to wait until Sunday?

I haven’t tried to tempt him w/food since much earlier today—will dangle another bloodworm to see if he’s tempted—no expectations of success, but PATIENCE!!! I’m hangin in!!!!!

Can only speculate how this happened, but i spotted a baby assassin (lil bigger than a sesame seed) in the nano tank that contains the ram’s horns—so i bit the bullet & transferred 3 assassins from the 10gal. I was changing water, which included removing a significant number of egg patches We’ll see what the status is tomorrow—the assassins r remarkably thorough!!!

Re ‘water change’—i fully replaced the patient’s saline yesterday; how often should i do it? Every day? Every other day? Please advise.

THANK YOU

 

[Andy Sager]

I ordered a gram scale—will arrive Sunday. He appears OK-ish (attached some pix of various postures). He’s got this patch of fungus(?) just under his maw (included among the pix—quality poor—but hopefully visible). I’m hoping the ‘prazi-mat’ will be a TKO—is it ok to wait until Sunday?

The pic was too blurry. Are you sure it's fungus or is it his scaling? If it's fungus, the prazi-mat is probably not going to do much for it. You don't use an antibiotic for fungus.

I haven’t tried to tempt him w/food since much earlier today—will dangle another bloodworm to see if he’s tempted—no expectations of success, but PATIENCE!!! I’m hangin in!!!!!

Can only speculate how this happened, but i spotted a baby assassin (lil bigger than a sesame seed) in the nano tank that contains the ram’s horns—so i bit the bullet & transferred 3 assassins from the 10gal. I was changing water, which included removing a significant number of egg patches We’ll see what the status is tomorrow—the assassins r remarkably thorough!!!

Re ‘water change’—i fully replaced the patient’s saline yesterday; how often should i do it? Every day? Every other day? Please advise.

If he's not eating, you should be able to only need to do it every 2 or 3 days. Just test for ammonia and if there is any, do a water change. Since you insist on using a medication I don't believe you need, follow the directions regarding water changes once you start it.

THANK YOU