🆘 : Bewildering, mysterious behaviour change in Betta—there appears to be a neurological element (Hope ANDY sees this!!!)

[EGGBERT]

Andy, remember that we began this discussion partly because of ‘jerky’ movements (& rubbing against certain surfaces seemingly in an effort to dislodge something); we concluded that there was likely some parasite (possibly introduced by nerite snails) that was causing a slew of bad symptoms.

The ‘PrazMat’ combo is considered a ‘broad spectrum’ approach to the matter; u had advocated the use of the stuff early on in our discussion—an obstacle to this was availability on my side of the border—u’d initially recommended the Fritz product—not available in Canada—but i found a substitute—the AquaCura formulation, which i think is the same as the Fritz product. SALT was a substitute for (or a precursor to) the PrazMat combo.

Here’s a link discussing what it does:

Review of Prazi-Met 10g Fish Treatment for Effective Parasite Control

Review of Prazi-Met 10g Fish Treatment for Effective Parasite Control When it comes to maintaining the health of ytheir aquarium, ensuring that ytheir fish are free from parasites and diseases is paramount. Prazi-Met by Aquacura is a product that promises to deliver effective parasite control...

www.reviewaqua.com

So now i have the stuff in hand; i’m not ‘insistent’ on using it—honestly, i’d rather not—but i don’t know how much more the salt can do. Per your advice i’m willing to give the ‘salt cure’ more time, but, based on your experience, do u have a ballpark amt of time that might take? Or is this process a total crapshoot w/nothing quantifiable?

What i called ‘fungus’, under his mouth—i’m pretty sure it’s not his scales—BUT, oddly, it became more visible w/the camera—that’s when i noticed it—i was initially trying to capture certain positions he’d assume—that’s when i saw it (sorry the pic is crummy).

I won’t try anything until i get the weighing device; in the meantime i’ll keep checking the ammonia status & changing the water.

(I never dismiss/ignore any of your advice!!!)

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, remember that we began this discussion partly because of ‘jerky’ movements (& rubbing against certain surfaces seemingly in an effort to dislodge something); we concluded that there was likely some parasite (possibly introduced by nerite snails) that was causing a slew of bad symptoms.

If you look back at my first response in this thread, ( Post #2), I mentioned 4 possible reasons why the fish was behaving the way it was. Because there were so many possibilities, we needed to eliminate each possibility one at a time. If you recall ( or reread post #2), my thought was, considering your successes with the loaches breeding, the water was probably not the reason and the salt treatment would be a long shot but since you could not get the Paracleanse or AquaCura immediately, the salt treatment would be a good start since it would be immediate. If it worked , great, if it didn't work, it rules out the tank water as the problem. Well, just like in horse racing, long shots do come in sometimes. The fish is responding well with just that treatment. With that being the case, it ruled out the reason being a parasite. So from there, we then looked at WHY the salt would be working and found that his tank has Cyanobacteria in it. Cyano is a toxic bacteria when ingested. You said that the fish used to feed on the bottom (where the cyano is). One then can conclude that the possibility exists that the fish consumed some Cyano and that cyano poisoning was in play. If the fish did consume some cyano, that effects the fish organs. A fish's organs MAY be able to regenerate but that is a slow process. Even my research on "how long does recovery from cyano ingestion take" said that "it can take weeks or even months." So there is no way I can tell you that in X amount of days or weeks or months the fish will be cured. And keep in mind that maybe he didn't eat the cyano directly but if his food had landed on it and it started to grow on the pellet(s), he may have ingested it that way. There's just no way to know for sure without taking the fish to a Vet and having bloodwork and scans done to see what is going on since you don't have a 24/7/365 video of the fish tank. And that would cost a bazillion dollars. That's just unreasonable for a low cost fish. So the only way to prevent something like this from happening again is to not have cyano in the tank, ever!!!
Unfortunately, we can't ask our non English speaking pets what they did or how they feel so it becomes a case of trial and error. Just like when you go to your Doctor with a problem, the first thing the Dr does is ask questions. From your answers, the Dr formulates a plan and dispenses either medications or other therapies for recovery. I've asked you questions and made recommendations based on your answers. You have, on more than one occasion, made purchases based on the question, not the answer. I've said repeatedly, you have to have patience. Diagnostics is not an immediate result. Re having the AquaCura, it's not the worst thing to have on hand if you are getting new fish because there is always the POSSIBILIITY that it can be needed in the future. In regards to the gram scale, if you had answered " No, I don't have a gram scale." I would have given you another method to apply the correct dosage IF you had access to certain materials. YOU jumped and bought a gram scale based on the question. That's not having patience. Regarding the fish "rubbing against certain surfaces seemingly in an effort to dislodge something", you said there were fuzz spots on the fish. Are they still there in the same areas? If not, that is most likely what he was trying to rub off since he's not rubbing on anything anymore.

The ‘PrazMat’ combo is considered a ‘broad spectrum’ approach to the matter;

Sadly, some fish med companies make claims that their products don't always actually do. Fungus is a funny thing. It's a separate "animal " from bacteria so it needs different meds. If PrazMat doesn't include fluconazole, it probably won't work on fungus. Here's a catch tho, Columnaris, a common disease in fish that is often the cause of mouth "fungus" because it looks like a fungus, is not a fungus at all but a bacteria. So the manufacturer says on it's product that it will treat "mouth fungus" when in reality, it's treating a bacteria, not a fungus. People see mouth "Fungus" and think " Oh, this product treats fungus." when in fact it doesn't. Do you think the manufacturer is going to correct people and lose sales?

u had advocated the use of the stuff early on in our discussion—an obstacle to this was availability on my side of the border—u’d initially recommended the Fritz product—not available in Canada—but i found a substitute—the AquaCura formulation, which i think is the same as the Fritz product. SALT was a substitute for (or a precursor to) the PrazMat combo.

No, salt was another treatment method for something the PrazMat wouldn't treat. Reread the thread.

Here’s a link discussing what it does:

Review of Prazi-Met 10g Fish Treatment for Effective Parasite Control

Review of Prazi-Met 10g Fish Treatment for Effective Parasite Control When it comes to maintaining the health of ytheir aquarium, ensuring that ytheir fish are free from parasites and diseases is paramount. Prazi-Met by Aquacura is a product that promises to deliver effective parasite control...

www.reviewaqua.com

So now i have the stuff in hand; i’m not ‘insistent’ on using it—honestly, i’d rather not—but i don’t know how much more the salt can do. Per your advice i’m willing to give the ‘salt cure’ more time, but, based on your experience, do u have a ballpark amt of time that might take? Or is this process a total crapshoot w/nothing quantifiable?

What i called ‘fungus’, under his mouth—i’m pretty sure it’s not his scales—BUT, oddly, it became more visible w/the camera—that’s when i noticed it—i was initially trying to capture certain positions he’d assume—that’s when i saw it (sorry the pic is crummy).

Without good clear pictures and history, it's very difficult to make a concrete diagnoses. Even if it's fungus, that's the least of his problems.

I won’t try anything until i get the weighing device; in the meantime i’ll keep checking the ammonia status & changing the water.

(I never dismiss/ignore any of your advice!!!)

I believe I addressed the rest of your post in that first section. The salted water is something the fish can live in forever so not something to be concerned about being in for longer than just a treatment. When/if the fish recovers, it will be up to you then if you want to continue using it. If you stop it and the fish stops behaving "normally", you'll know your water lacks something the salt supplies for the fish and should continue using it.
For now, I would continue the salted water treatment and just keep trying to feed a bloodworm or pellet once per day or every other day. I would try just dropping the pellet or bloodworm into the tank and observe his reaction to it from a distance. If he shows no interest in it in the first 10-15 minutes, remove it from the tank so that it doesn't foul the water. That is all I would do other than changing the water every 2 -3 days. The rest is just up to the fish.

 

[EGGBERT]

Greetings Andy… Firstly, THANKS for the pithy reply—have skimmed thus far but will read w/focus a bit later.

YES: ‘patience’ is not my strong suit, so i
sometimes jump the gun (eg, instantaneous purchase of gram scale. Seems to me it’s a good tool to have on hand, so no regrets).

Good news/concerning news: Egg ATE!!! He had 3 pellets—probably would’ve had 4 (his usual meal qty), but i didn’t want to push it.

Concerning: the ‘patch’ is still very much present (sorry my phone’s camera is unable to produce a crisp shot).
None of the ‘spots’, nor the patch, have increased in size (or #).

U say these fish can survive (& thrive?) in saline indefinitely—does that mean (best case) that they can ‘potentially’ live to their statistical max in a saline environment?

Have u personally ever kept a betta in saline for their lifespan? If Yes, how long was that?
U r a master fishkeeper, & bettas have been a significant species in your history, so I’m wondering what’s been the longest-lived one(s) for u?

Re the 5gal… I received the SlimeOut—will probably use today… Am thinking i should just ditch most of the plants. If the nerites remain in that habitat, more algae will develop, & they’ve finally responded to algae wafers; refuges/hidey holes don’t have to be organic. Not sure how to handle…

How long should i keep the patient in the hospital tank? But clearly i can’t rtn him to the 5gal until it’s somewhat pristine

Different betta topic: my female (‘Pearl’) is particularly lively—appears to have a spicy personality—always flares at me. I know this behaviour is variable—should i be concerned, on her behalf, since i understand ‘some’ flaring is beneficial, but ‘too much’ (of most things) can be hazardous?!!! Please advise. TY

 

[EGGBERT]

PS: the pH is 6.6 in the hospital tank—the patient is accustomed to 7.6—should i adjust it or is more acidity beneficial under the circumstances?

I scoured the 5gal & added an appropriate amt of SlimeOut. The latter is appropriate for fresh & saltwater aquariums. The product needs to be re-added in 2 days. Since we’ve also determined that a saline environment is ok for the nerites, when the SlimeOut treatment is finished can i salinify the 5gal & reintroduce the patient?

 

[Andy Sager]

Greetings Andy… Firstly, THANKS for the pithy reply—have skimmed thus far but will read w/focus a bit later.

I don't mean to be " pithy" but sometimes...

YES: ‘patience’ is not my strong suit,

That's a very costly problem and I don't like people wasting money. The hobby is expensive enough with stuff you actually need. I can't tell you how many times I've said to customers who wanted to buy something they didn't need " I make my living off selling products. If I'm telling you not to buy it, that should sound a loud alarm that you don't need it."

so i
sometimes jump the gun (eg, instantaneous purchase of gram scale. Seems to me it’s a good tool to have on hand, so no regrets).

Yes, gram scales are very good... for drug dealers. Just kidding. They are very handy when you have to separate medications but I'll tell you something you may not believe, I've never owned one. I've never needed to own one. I know ways to not need one. Like I said, I don't like to waste money.

Good news/concerning news: Egg ATE!!! He had 3 pellets—probably would’ve had 4 (his usual meal qty), but i didn’t want to push it.

Just another sign that the salted water is working and was the right treatment. It's very important now that you don't overfeed him. He's in recovery, not in recovered stage. That means smaller meals. Start with one small meal a day for a couple of days, then increase it to 2 small meals for a couple of days ( make the second meal not the pellet), once he is back to actively swimming, you can increase the amount of food per meal, NOT BEFORE THEN!!!

Concerning: the ‘patch’ is still very much present (sorry my phone’s camera is unable to produce a crisp shot).
None of the ‘spots’, nor the patch, have increased in size (or #).

For now, I wouldn't do anything about them. As he gets healthier, he should be able to fend them off on his own.

U say these fish can survive (& thrive?) in saline indefinitely—does that mean (best case) that they can ‘potentially’ live to their statistical max in a saline environment?

Yes.

Have u personally ever kept a betta in saline for their lifespan? If Yes, how long was that?

I don't keep Bettas for their entire lifespan. I breed them, see what they produce then sell off or trade off the ones that produce traits I am not interested in in my lines. The longest I've kept a Betta was about 3 or 4 years. By then, the males start to slow down in breeding production. I do use salted water for recovery after spawning for both females and males. I've saved some really battered females after spawning just with salted water. That said, there are times the fish needs stronger medications for recovery. As I tried to explain to you, we still don't know exactly what the cause of this issue was and because of that and the fact that the salted water helped the recovery, when the fish is recoverED, ( as in back to actively swimming an eating a normal diet an basically being what he was when you first got him) you can start to reduce to salt and see how the fish does. If the fish slides back to this current stage, that means there is something missing in your water that the salt is making up for so the water should be salted again or else you are going to go through all this again.

U r a master fishkeeper, & bettas have been a significant species in your history, so I’m wondering what’s been the longest-lived one(s) for u?

Re the 5gal… I received the SlimeOut—will probably use today… Am thinking i should just ditch most of the plants. If the nerites remain in that habitat, more algae will develop, & they’ve finally responded to algae wafers; refuges/hidey holes don’t have to be organic. Not sure how to handle…

The plants aren't the reason you had Cyano. If you can clean them off and keep them clean of any Cyano, there's no reason to get rid of them. If the nerites don't keep the plants clean, it's probably not algae on them and that should be addressed.

How long should i keep the patient in the hospital tank? But clearly i can’t rtn him to the 5gal until it’s somewhat pristine

Until he's recovered and back to normal. He definitely should not go back into the 5 gallon until you are sure there is no more Cyano growing in it. Just keep doing water changes in the hospital tank. As for the pH issue, there is probably ammonia in the water if that reading is accurate so do a 100% water change. There's no reason that the fish should be in water that low. Retest the pH to confirm that reading before doing anything.

Different betta topic: my female (‘Pearl’) is particularly lively—appears to have a spicy personality—always flares at me. I know this behaviour is variable—should i be concerned, on her behalf, since i understand ‘some’ flaring is beneficial, but ‘too much’ (of most things) can be hazardous?!!! Please advise. TY

I can't seem to find the picture of your female again but I have some suspicions that it may not be a female. Females don't generally flare that much. This fish ( in the picture) was given to me as a female for breeding. I planned on conditioning her for a couple of months before attempting to breed her. After 6 weeks of good food and clean water, "she" started blowing a bubble nest. Here's the problem with that: Females don't blow bubble nests, males do that. This turned out to be a male of different specie of Betta. Needless to say, I returned the fish to my buddy to breed if he had the right female. I was not interested in making hybrids.
You really can't stop them from doing what they do except not do what caused them to flare in the first place. If she flares when you are near, watch her from afar. If she is in fact a female, I'd reconsider the sorority idea. If this a male, definitely forget about the sorority idea.

 

[EGGBERT]

Pearl.

 

[Andy Sager]

Pearl.

It may be that "she's " not sexually mature yet but I' say there is at least a 50/50 chance this is a young male. Look for the white egg spot ( circled in this picture) if she is a female. With lightly colored fish like her, the eggs are usually very easy to see. They will look like this: ( Eggs are circled ) It won't be as dramatic in younger fish but will be in the same area of the body and the egg spot will be obvious.

 

[EGGBERT]

Hmmm, based on these photos—particularly the top one—i’d say Pearl’s a She: i’ve noticed a white protrusion at her vent area.

When my neighbourhood pet store carried fish, they told me that they had to manually extrude the eggs of gravid female bettas because the eggs wouldn’t otherwise self-release & that would kill the females
Is this true? If yes, am i now looking forward to having to induce egg release?

Re her personality—she appears to be a particularly lively & feisty individual—re the ‘flaring’. None of the male bettas i’ve had ever flared without inducement—eg, holding a fake betta outside the glass. Guess she’s just a weirdo—fits in perfectly w/my household!!!

Re the patient—last nite, before i changed the water—its pH was 6.6 & there was a scintilla of ammonia. I have filtration units intended for nano tanks—wouldn’t a filter stem the ammonia & extend the need to change the water every, or nearly every day? He’s the sole occupant; hopefully his appetite will remain (ie, hopefully no regression to food-resistance/potential starvation), but even one occupant slays the water parameters.

 

[Andy Sager]

Hmmm, based on these photos—particularly the top one—i’d say Pearl’s a She: i’ve noticed a white protrusion at her vent area.

I couldn't see that in your pictures.

When my neighbourhood pet store carried fish, they told me that they had to manually extrude the eggs of gravid female bettas because the eggs wouldn’t otherwise self-release & that would kill the females
Is this true? If yes, am i now looking forward to having to induce egg release?

Maybe that's why they no longer carry fish because that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. There is absolutely positively no reason to strip a Betta of eggs. They do not release eggs just because they are full. The ones that do are actually the abnormal ones. Yes, a gravid female of any specie can become eggbound but it's usually not because there is a problem with the fish. The problem(s) is the husbandry of the fish starting with poor water quality and circles back around diet and other stress factors. PERIOD. Under normal conditions, female fish reabsorb eggs when they did not spawn during that cycle. There is even a name for it. The process is called Atresia. So if your neighborhood fish store doesn't know about this, it's probably a good thing they don't sell fish anymore.

Re her personality—she appears to be a particularly lively & feisty individual—re the ‘flaring’. None of the male bettas i’ve had ever flared without inducement—eg, holding a fake betta outside the glass. Guess she’s just a weirdo—fits in perfectly w/my household!!!

Unfortunately, the mass production of Bettas has created very scattered behaviors among them. There is no longer any consistency in their behavior. Every Betta now is a crapshoot as to how they will behave.

Re the patient—last nite, before i changed the water—its pH was 6.6 & there was a scintilla of ammonia. I have filtration units intended for nano tanks—wouldn’t a filter stem the ammonia & extend the need to change the water every, or nearly every day? He’s the sole occupant; hopefully his appetite will remain (ie, hopefully no regression to food-resistance/potential starvation), but even one occupant slays the water parameters.

After what the fish went through, he needs 100% clean water. If you put a filter in the tank, you are creating nitrates and the water no longer is 100% clean. This is why you don't use a filter in many hospital tank situations.

In thinking about your question yesterday about the fish being in salted water permanently, many people will keep Bettas with livebearers that have salt in their water all the time with no issues with the Bettas. The dose of salt you are using is the same as the general dosage for most fish species. You are not making strong brackish water or ocean water. This is why there is no issue with the fish being in it permanently. As I said last night, if you want to wean him out of salted water once he's fully recovered, do it slowly and if he reverts back to this situation, you'll know it's your water that's the problem.

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy: the pix i sent u were taken before i saw the white protrusion, which appeared recently. From what u say, i’m relieved to learn that likely no egg-related crises lay (no pun!!!) ahead! I’m glad the store in question no longer carries fish!!!

Based on what u’ve explained to me, i’ll tell what i’d ‘like’ to do; please tell me if u think it’s folly or doable:

Ok… The patient’s appetite rtn is holding—he ate 3 pellets earlier (+ poo from yesterday’s feast).
I scoured the 5gal—supplied the nerites w/some algae substitutes since i removed most of it. Rinsed/scrubbed the filtration components in tank water (the tank really is relatively pristine, so the filtration media was looking good).
I added the SlimeOut; would like to add salt since i determined that the snails & the plant life r tolerant of it.
The water parameters of the 5gal have always been rock steady: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate: 0–pH has varied slightly, but height is 7.6.

If the parameters continue to hold & the SlimeOut stems the cyano, can i reintroduce him?
Re determining if unsalted water might be a problem source, i could start him in a saline tank (5 teaspoons?) & reduce it via routine water changes.

Is this approach viable or idiocy?

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy: the pix i sent u were taken before i saw the white protrusion, which appeared recently. From what u say, i’m relieved to learn that likely no egg-related crises lay (no pun!!!) ahead! I’m glad the store in question no longer carries fish!!!

Based on what u’ve explained to me, i’ll tell what i’d ‘like’ to do; please tell me if u think it’s folly or doable:

Ok… The patient’s appetite rtn is holding—he ate 3 pellets earlier (+ poo from yesterday’s feast).
I scoured the 5gal—supplied the nerites w/some algae substitutes since i removed most of it. Rinsed/scrubbed the filtration components in tank water (the tank really is relatively pristine, so the filtration media was looking good).
I added the SlimeOut; would like to add salt since i determined that the snails & the plant life r tolerant of it.
The water parameters of the 5gal have always been rock steady: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate: 0–pH has varied slightly, but height is 7.6.

If the parameters continue to hold & the SlimeOut stems the cyano, can i reintroduce him?
Re determining if unsalted water might be a problem source, i could start him in a saline tank (5 teaspoons?) & reduce it via routine water changes.

Is this approach viable or idiocy?

It's too soon. Your fish needs clean water and as I explained, even in a cycled tank, the water is not clean unless you have 0 nitrates as well as 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite. If you are feeding the fish, there is going to be nitrates. And putting him in a bigger tank is going to cause him to expend more energy to eat, to swim, to find the food etc. That is not what a recuperating fish needs. I'd leave him in the current hospital tank. If being in the smaller tank causes you to do more water changes more frequently, that is actually the best thing for him now. That's my 2 cents.

 

[EGGBERT]

Hey Andy… I ALWAYS respect/take into account/MOSTLY-FOLLOW-100%, your ‘2-cents’!!!

Having said that, i haven’t done anything (yet) that u’ve advised against—but i feel VERY strongly about adding salt to the 5 gal & returning Egg—here’s why:

It seems u doubt/disbelieve me when i tell u that the parameters in the 5gal r stable:
ammonia, nitrite, AND nitrate: 0; pH 7.2.
It’s been this way for MONTHS probably because of my cleaning routine (weekly water change + rinsing the filtration media usually every few wks; point is, i keep my eye on it. I also do a daily siphoning of uneaten food, etc.).

Just tested—parameters stable; AND, i’m providing the snails w/a food source—so waste matter is still being produced.
I’ve attached pix of one of the alternative food sources—the snails eat that, any algae that survived the purge, & a piece of algae wafer.
NOTE: the parameters were stable even w/the cyano.

I also believe the parameters r stable because of the small population: right now, the 2 nerites—previously, 2 nerites + Egg.

The cyano appears vanquished (my cleaning efforts & the SlimeOut).

Just checked his water (nano hospital tank); curiously, the ammonia is 0, but the pH is significantly acidic.

I would like to take a chance w/him in the 5gal. In addition to the stability of the 5gal’s parameters, i think the water change process for the nano tank is stressful—the repetitious removal/rtn of him to that mini tank—& the fact that the tank requires frequent water changes.

Please try not to be miffed w/me, & please advise. TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy… I ALWAYS respect/take into account/MOSTLY-FOLLOW-100%, your ‘2-cents’!!!

Having said that, i haven’t done anything (yet) that u’ve advised against—but i feel VERY strongly about adding salt to the 5 gal & returning Egg—here’s why:

It seems u doubt/disbelieve me when i tell u that the parameters in the 5gal r stable:
ammonia, nitrite, AND nitrate: 0; pH 7.2.
It’s been this way for MONTHS probably because of my cleaning routine (weekly water change + rinsing the filtration media usually every few wks; point is, i keep my eye on it. I also do a daily siphoning of uneaten food, etc.).

Just tested—parameters stable; AND, i’m providing the snails w/a food source—so waste matter is still being produced.
I’ve attached pix of one of the alternative food sources—the snails eat that, any algae that survived the purge, & a piece of algae wafer.
NOTE: the parameters were stable even w/the cyano.

I also believe the parameters r stable because of the small population: right now, the 2 nerites—previously, 2 nerites + Egg.

The cyano appears vanquished (my cleaning efforts & the SlimeOut).

Just checked his water (nano hospital tank); curiously, the ammonia is 0, but the pH is significantly acidic.

I would like to take a chance w/him in the 5gal. In addition to the stability of the 5gal’s parameters, i think the water change process for the nano tank is stressful—the repetitious removal/rtn of him to that mini tank—& the fact that the tank requires frequent water changes.

Please try not to be miffed w/me, & please advise. TY

It's really simple and you seem to miss my point on this: It wouldn't matter if you gave him the best setup in the world, the fish has gone through something extremely traumatic. It was so traumatic that it caused his appetite to subside, his fins to clamp, his body to stop swimming, fuzz balls to grow on his body and potentially was suffering from organ failure from a poison. In order to recover from that, the fish should be as quiet as possible and expend the least amount of energy in order to regain his strength and improve his health. That does not happen when he has to swim far for food. That doesn't happen if he is allowed to swim about a larger tank and most of all, that doesn't happen in water that has any form of nitrogen in it and nitrates are a form of nitrogen. What I believe is the best thing to keep him on a path of recovery is to leave him in the smaller tank, change the water daily if necessary to control quality and not move the fish until he is acting like he was when you first got him. If the water is going acidic in less than 2 days, you are over feeding him. I told you not to gorge him with food from the start. From what you wrote, you ignored that. It doesn't matter that he could eat 3 pellets instead of 4. It should have been on 1 or 2 at the start and increased only when he became more active. And here's the good part if the pH does go acidic, at pH levels under 6.8-7.0, ammonia is converted to non toxic ammonium so there is no chance of any ammonia poisoning. If it stays that way too long and you add any type of aeration however, nitrifying microbes will start to develop and eventually turn that ammonium into nitrite then nitrate. THAT is what's not good for this fish's recovery.
So now it's up to you. You can follow my advice or you can do what you want since it is your fish. If you decide to move him and his health declines again, you may not be able to save him a second time. Even tho he's eating now, that's no guarantee that his body can handle or process the food so I wouldn't say the fish is out of the woods yet. That's the best and most I can tell you. I'm only telling you what my multiple decades of experience with this specie has taught me. This is why I don't lose many fish to disease or poor health. But it's your choice.

 

[EGGBERT]

Ok Andy—i will continue to adhere to your advice—there’s no doubt in my mind that u know of what u speak!!! It’s just frustrating—needless to say…

Re the feeding—i’ve been feeding him 1ce/day.

Pre-illness, he was accustomed to 4 pellets, 2-3 x/day. Since the rtn of his appetite, i’ve given him 4 pellets ONCE—today.

Should i cut back: 1 or 2 pellets per meal, 1ce/day? Or, perhaps 1-2 pellets, more than 1ce/day?

What u shared about the pH/ammonia factor IS comforting!!!

I know the quality of the pix is inferior, but i’m resharing a pic i sent earlier along w/a couple of new pix: there’s something on his ‘chin’ (area beneath his mouth) that just looks ‘off’; can’t decide whether it’s fungal or some type of growth. If u can detect/determine ANYthing from the photos i’ll be grateful.

 

[Andy Sager]

Ok Andy—i will continue to adhere to your advice—there’s no doubt in my mind that u know of what u speak!!! It’s just frustrating—needless to say…

Yeah, I know but just like you don't recover from a poisoning in a day, neither do fish.

Re the feeding—i’ve been feeding him 1ce/day.

Pre-illness, he was accustomed to 4 pellets, 2-3 x/day. Since the rtn of his appetite, i’ve given him 4 pellets ONCE—today.

Should i cut back: 1 or 2 pellets per meal, 1ce/day? Or, perhaps 1-2 pellets, more than 1ce/day?

I would do 1-2 pellets 2x per day for about 3 or 4 days then increase to 1-2 pellets 2x per day with a 3rd feeding of another type of food. If he gets more active, increase by 1-2 pellet(s) per feeding along with the other foods. Spread out the feedings to at least 4-5 hours in apart. In roughly a week to 10 day ( +/- ) period, he should be actively swimming around when he sees you coming with food. At that point, you can move him to the other tank. If not active or just hangs at the bottom or in a single area waiting for you to drop some food over his head, he needs to stay in the hospital tank longer. Eating is not a sign of full recovery. How he responds to feeding is.

What u shared about the pH/ammonia factor IS comforting!!!

I know the quality of the pix is inferior, but i’m resharing a pic i sent earlier along w/a couple of new pix: there’s something on his ‘chin’ (area beneath his mouth) that just looks ‘off’; can’t decide whether it’s fungal or some type of growth. If u can detect/determine ANYthing from the photos i’ll be grateful.

All I can see from those pics is an area the same color as his scales and not a disease. The problem with those fancy scaled Bettas is that they are prone to tumors and growths and there is nothing you can do for them regarding treatment. What he has may be a reaction to whatever caused his condition and may go away on it's own once he gets better or it won't. Unfortunately it's in one of the worst places because when fish get tumors or growths that interfere with feeding, the only humane thing to do is to euthanize. Bettas have an uncanny knack of healing themselves of a lot of issues in clean water. Just keep giving him clean water and hope for the best.

 

[EGGBERT]

Okie doke. I’ll follow protocol & be prepared for anything—best case or worst.

 

[EGGBERT]

One of the theories we shared is the possibility of the nerites that share the 5gal w/Egg harbouring parasites that could transfer-to/potentially-harm him.

Would salt have the same curative effect on snails as on a betta, or would these snails need treatment w/an anti-parasitic such as the PraziMet? & what better time to deploy than when the betta tenant is absent?

This would also be part of the prep for his rtn to home base. What’s your position on this?

 

[EGGBERT]

ANDY!!! RUOK? I know u have a life, & i’m not your only acolyte, but u mostly respond pretty swiftly—so i’m worried about u Hope all’s well w/u. Best regards, A.

 

[Andy Sager]

ANDY!!! RUOK? I know u have a life, & i’m not your only acolyte, but u mostly respond pretty swiftly—so i’m worried about u Hope all’s well w/u. Best regards, A.

Thanks for asking and I'm fine. I didn't get any notices about your post yesterday which is why I didn't respond.

One of the theories we shared is the possibility of the nerites that share the 5gal w/Egg harbouring parasites that could transfer-to/potentially-harm him.

That was a possibility before the the salt worked. It was just one of 4 possibilities that needed to be ruled out and I believe it was.

Would salt have the same curative effect on snails as on a betta, or would these snails need treatment w/an anti-parasitic such as the PraziMet?

No, the salt would not have the same effects on the snails as on the fish. You would need to use the PraziMet or similar to kill off any potential pathogens inside the snail(s). If you wanted to do a preventative treatment, yes, the best time to do it is with the fish not in the tank. Just make sure you fully dissolve the PraziMet in a separate container before adding to the tank. There are some reports of undissolved Metronidazole powder harming/ burning snails if it landed on the snail's flesh or the snail ate it.

 

[EGGBERT]

Glad ur ok I’ve got a mess of developments to report. Firstly, re the patient—he’s looking great!!! I’m sticking to the feeding schedule u recommended (2 pellets, 2ce/day, ~5hrs apart; on Fri, 3 feedings—3rd meal will be something other than pellets). His food enthusiasm appears to have rtn’d (i think he’s disappointed w/just 2 pellets)—& he’s swimming around w/his fins opened—he just ‘looks’ ‘happier’.

I’m going to do the PrazMat in the 5gal (will dissolve thoroughly before adding). I’ve got the salt-water changing routine in the nano (hospital) tank down to a science, so Egg will remain there as long as necessary.

More news…
I decided to take a calculated risk, so went ahead & setup a sorority in the 10gal—got 2 more female bettas (3 total). Watching the shifting dynamics has been fascinating—i’ve observed both dominance (chasing around) behaviour as well as ‘buddy buddy’ (cruising around/foraging together) behaviour—& it changes!!! Eg: one that appears ‘dominant’ will get chased by one ‘lower’ in the pecking order. They have ample hiding ops (plants, a multi-entrace ‘cave’-type structure)—so overall, the experiment is leaning toward a positive outcome.

I’ve attached a couple pix—one, a bit blurred—shows the 3 of them—the 2nd shows the tank setup (has a couple terrestrial plants—harmless to fish & plant-loving furry vertebrates—read: cats, dogs).

I made a brutal executive decisionto move the wildly prolific ram’s horns into the 10gal, mostly to benefit the assassins (still reproducing), but when i had Pearl (fem betta #1) in the nano tank that housed the RHs, i observed her eating the chia-seed-sized juveniles, & i’m betting she went for any eggs that got pried loose—so i’m hoping the move will benefit the sisters & the assassins.

One more news item (2 more pix attached):
The African dwarfs have been at it again…
Yesterday i did a water change on all the tanks; when i got to the 20gal i saw a distinct clutch of eggs (the male had been vocalizing the night before—fast work!!!).

After the recent mating events of the frogs AND the hillstreams, i decided to purchase a ‘brood box’, ‘just in case’—so i assembled the thing & added the readily moveable egg mass (there’s plenty scattered, & i’m sure some r hidden; i think most r eaten!!!).

If the eggs hatch, i know they need to eat ‘infusoria’: i’ve got frozen daphnia, which i think/hope will fill the bill. We’ll see what develops—or not. I’m still largely flying by the seat of my pants!!!!!