🆘 : Bewildering, mysterious behaviour change in Betta—there appears to be a neurological element (Hope ANDY sees this!!!)

[Andy Sager]

Glad ur ok I’ve got a mess of developments to report. Firstly, re the patient—he’s looking great!!! I’m sticking to the feeding schedule u recommended (2 pellets, 2ce/day, ~5hrs apart; on Fri, 3 feedings—3rd meal will be something other than pellets). His food enthusiasm appears to have rtn’d (i think he’s disappointed w/just 2 pellets)—& he’s swimming around w/his fins opened—he just ‘looks’ ‘happier’.

All good signs. Just don't rush.

I’m going to do the PrazMat in the 5gal (will dissolve thoroughly before adding). I’ve got the salt-water changing routine in the nano (hospital) tank down to a science, so Egg will remain there as long as necessary.

More news…
I decided to take a calculated risk, so went ahead & setup a sorority in the 10gal—got 2 more female bettas (3 total). Watching the shifting dynamics has been fascinating—i’ve observed both dominance (chasing around) behaviour as well as ‘buddy buddy’ (cruising around/foraging together) behaviour—& it changes!!! Eg: one that appears ‘dominant’ will get chased by one ‘lower’ in the pecking order. They have ample hiding ops (plants, a multi-entrace ‘cave’-type structure)—so overall, the experiment is leaning toward a positive outcome.

Good luck.

I’ve attached a couple pix—one, a bit blurred—shows the 3 of them—the 2nd shows the tank setup (has a couple terrestrial plants—harmless to fish & plant-loving furry vertebrates—read: cats, dogs).

I made a brutal executive decisionto move the wildly prolific ram’s horns into the 10gal, mostly to benefit the assassins (still reproducing), but when i had Pearl (fem betta #1) in the nano tank that housed the RHs, i observed her eating the chia-seed-sized juveniles, & i’m betting she went for any eggs that got pried loose—so i’m hoping the move will benefit the sisters & the assassins.

One more news item (2 more pix attached):
The African dwarfs have been at it again…
Yesterday i did a water change on all the tanks; when i got to the 20gal i saw a distinct clutch of eggs (the male had been vocalizing the night before—fast work!!!).

After the recent mating events of the frogs AND the hillstreams, i decided to purchase a ‘brood box’, ‘just in case’—so i assembled the thing & added the readily moveable egg mass (there’s plenty scattered, & i’m sure some r hidden; i think most r eaten!!!).

Of which, the frogs or the loaches?

If the eggs hatch, i know they need to eat ‘infusoria’: i’ve got frozen daphnia, which i think/hope will fill the bill. We’ll see what develops—or not. I’m still largely flying by the seat of my pants!!!!!

No, daphnia is not the same as infusoria. You need a microscope to see single infusoria. You can see daphnia with the naked eye. Newly hatched brine shrimp would be a closer match to the infusoria but there are also fish fry that are too small to eat even newly hatched brine so infusoria is the food most breeders will use first to get the fry large enough to eat newly hatched brine shrimp. There are also vinegar eels and walter worms that should be small enough for either but they would need to be cultured. There are rotifers that are sold for raising marine fish fry and that would be the closest match to infusoria if the eggs are the loach eggs but if they are the frog eggs, you're better off adding green water ( phytoplankton) or take some rock that is covered in algae for the tadpoles to try and eat.
For now, DON'T jump into buying all of these until you tell me what kind of eggs you are talking about.

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy, alas it’s guesswork. The first event—when i observed BOTH species mating—occurred on Dec 3, so, statistically—per what i’ve read—it takes ~7days for hillstream fry to hatch; if the hillstream eggs weren’t eaten or non-viable, there should be babies lurking somewhere (they sure as heck stayed under cover in the 10gal!!!).

The loaches did their mating dance around the lil ‘planter’ in the photo below, which would be a perfect place to drop some eggs, so i hope a few landed in there. Under where i drew the arrow is a tangle of roots—perfect for hiding fry & w/close access to nearby algae-coated rootlets, & the tank itself has a lotta potential hiding spaces for tiny creatures.

Given the timeframe, there should’ve been tadpoles galore by now (i’m assuming they ate EVERYthing: eggs, any hatchlings), & the Af dwarf eggs, on average, hatch in a couple of days, & given the fact that i observed the frogs ‘at it’ the night before, it seems logical that the clump i found is ‘frog’ in origin.

As per photos, both species’ eggs start out looking roughly the same: round, white, wrapped in transparent gelatine; the supposed frog eggs in the ‘breed box’, r already darkening.

My biggest worry now is where to acquire nourishment for any survivors (the shop where i traded my assassins will likely have the appropriate supplies)—the feeding info u provided is super helpful—THANK YOU (as always)

 

[Andy Sager]

Well, since I've never bred hillstream loaches, it's hard to say that the darkened eggs are/aren't them. I guess you'll have to see. Unfortunately, both the frogs and the loaches hatch with yolk sacs so just seeing wigglers isn't a definite means of IDing what they are unless you can definitely see that pointed tail of a tadpole vs the rounded tail of a loach. Then there is the fact that frog eggs are laid in a gelatinous mass so if you are seeing individual eggs with no gelatin, they are probably dead eggs. That's not true for the fish eggs. So bottom line, you need to wait until they are hatched and go from there. FYI: They do make frozen newly hatched brine shrimp so you might want to check and see if you local store carries it. Also, there is a product called Liquifry for egglayers ( not to be confused with the Liquifry for livebearers) that can be a good first food to get the fry/tadpoles large enough to eat the baby brine shrimp. Something else to see if they carry that. In either case, I'd put some rock with algae on it in the brood box once whatever is in there starts swimming and not before.

 

[EGGBERT]

I will def add algae-coated rocks, per your recommendation. Thanks for the tips on feeding products—will investigate—i hope their availability on this side of the border is better than that of pharmaceuticals!!!

Great tip on IDing ‘dead’ eggs; r there any other distinguishing signs ( vs )?

I will keep u posted (whether it’s nada or hallelujah)!!!

 

[Andy Sager]

I will def add algae-coated rocks, per your recommendation. Thanks for the tips on feeding products—will investigate—i hope their availability on this side of the border is better than that of pharmaceuticals!!!

Hopefully. There may be other Canadian brands that offer them besides San Francisco Bay brand.

Great tip on IDing ‘dead’ eggs; r there any other distinguishing signs ( vs )?

Yeah, if they fungus over. Definitely dead then.

I will keep u posted (whether it’s nada or hallelujah)!!!

 

[EGGBERT]

Hey Andy The eggs were duds—every one fuzzed over. I removed them & the unit—a lil disappointed, but not upset—mebbe even a bit relieved, because i don’t feel adequately setup for such an endeavour—but glad i got my feet wet (so to speak).

As w/the 10gal miracle (5 hillstream fry, a tsunami of assassins…), i’m hoping that perhaps some miracle hillstreams have secreted themselves somewhere. Clearly, time will tell!

In the meantime, i’ve got my flippers full w/the patient (who’s doing brilliantly), the sorority (looking good—really!!!), etc..

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy The eggs were duds—every one fuzzed over. I removed them & the unit—a lil disappointed, but not upset—mebbe even a bit relieved, because i don’t feel adequately setup for such an endeavour—but glad i got my feet wet (so to speak).

As w/the 10gal miracle (5 hillstream fry, a tsunami of assassins…), i’m hoping that perhaps some miracle hillstreams have secreted themselves somewhere. Clearly, time will tell!

In the meantime, i’ve got my flippers full w/the patient (who’s doing brilliantly), the sorority (looking good—really!!!), etc..

That's okay, most people are not set up for the first spawn they want to try. At least now you have the info and know what to look for in the future. Honestly, the thread using the shoe box for the frog eggs sounds like a better method for the frogs. The box can be used for the loach eggs if you can see where they leave them.

 

[EGGBERT]

I’ve saved that link u shared chronicling experience w/ADF baby rearing; looking forward to reading later.

Looks like i need to change the patient’s water every other day—just tested parameters: looks to be .25ppm amm., 6.8pH… Re-dosing the 5gal (prazi-met) tomorrow night. I’m hoping to rtn Egg to the 5gal sometime next week.

 

[Andy Sager]

I’ve saved that link u shared chronicling experience w/ADF baby rearing; looking forward to reading later.

Looks like i need to change the patient’s water every other day—just tested parameters: looks to be .25ppm amm., 6.8pH…

Which is actually .25 ammonIUM.

Re-dosing the 5gal (prazi-met) tomorrow night. I’m hoping to rtn Egg to the 5gal sometime next week.

 

[EGGBERT]

Re Patient (‘Egg’): still doing brilliantly (knock wood)—THANKS to your steady guidance!!!

Today he progresses to 3 meals; we know he loves the pellets, but u recommended a different food for meal 3—that’ll be blood worms (i feed the sorority the pellets & bloodworms, which r also for the assassins who have the add’l benefit of the wildly prolific ram’s horns).

I feel confident that Egg can be rtn’d to the 5gal sometime next week; here’s a big Q:
Should i add salt to the 5gal?
The 2 nerites remained in that tank—today they’ll be redosed w/the prazi-met; i’ll do a water change a couple of days afterwards.

What say ye?

 

[Andy Sager]

Re Patient (‘Egg’): still doing brilliantly (knock wood)—THANKS to your steady guidance!!!

Today he progresses to 3 meals; we know he loves the pellets, but u recommended a different food for meal 3—that’ll be blood worms (i feed the sorority the pellets & bloodworms, which r also for the assassins who have the add’l benefit of the wildly prolific ram’s horns).

I feel confident that Egg can be rtn’d to the 5gal sometime next week; here’s a big Q:
Should i add salt to the 5gal?
The 2 nerites remained in that tank—today they’ll be redosed w/the prazi-met; i’ll do a water change a couple of days afterwards.

What say ye?

Ye say, I would salt the water and when you do your water changes, do small volume water changes using unsalted water as the replacement water so that the change is gradual and see how he reacts. You know what to look for if things are going wrong so if he looks off in any way, you are going to have to go back to salting the water. That's what Ye says.

 

[EGGBERT]

THANKS… Will keep reporting noteworthy developments

 

[Andy Sager]

THANKS… Will keep reporting noteworthy developments

 

[EGGBERT]

Hey Andy… Update re the patient (Egg)… I transferred him back to his 5gal digs on Sunday.

Before i did that i did a water change (5gal)—tested the parameters, etc.

I’d also replaced the saline in his hospital tank pre-transfer so the parameters betw. tanks would be close, if not identical—objective being neutral pH, 0 ammonia/nitrite (& as mentioned before, the nitrate in the 5gal is consistently 0 as well; i used my fingers to estimate temperature).

U’d instructed 1tsp aquarium salt/gal, so factoring in the substrate & various objects in the tank i dissolved ~3.25 tsp to add to the water; the tank has an airstone w/a nozzle to control the flow—i also slowed down the filter output.

His appetite is terrific—altho it seems he lives to eat!!! I’ve been feeding him lightly w/those mini pellets & bloodworms.

I have one concern: he’s not expanding his dorsal fin—otherwise his behaviour is encouraging & the other fins aren’t clamped.

Do u have any insights re this behaviour? What should i do? Is there perhaps too much salt? Please advise. TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy… Update re the patient (Egg)… I transferred him back to his 5gal digs on Sunday.

Before i did that i did a water change (5gal)—tested the parameters, etc.

I’d also replaced the saline in his hospital tank pre-transfer so the parameters betw. tanks would be close, if not identical—objective being neutral pH, 0 ammonia/nitrite (& as mentioned before, the nitrate in the 5gal is consistently 0 as well; i used my fingers to estimate temperature).

U’d instructed 1tsp aquarium salt/gal, so factoring in the substrate & various objects in the tank i dissolved ~3.25 tsp to add to the water; the tank has an airstone w/a nozzle to control the flow—

You should install a 2 way or higher gang valve ( like this ) into the line to control the air without creating backpressure in the pump. This will increase the lifespan of your pump plus help move the water around so hopefully no more cyano.

i also slowed down the filter output.

Here's the thing to remember, Cyano likes low flow water. I'd install the gang valve for the air and keep the filtering at a regular rate. ( i.e. not so fast that it blows the fish around but not so slow that the water surface is stagnant.

His appetite is terrific—altho it seems he lives to eat!!!

That's because he wasn't feeding for a bit. He needs to catch up. Remember, fish don't know when to stop eating because they usually don't know when their next meal is coming.

I’ve been feeding him lightly w/those mini pellets & bloodworms.

Start increasing the meal amounts gradually. Just don't overdo it. Better to increase to the # of feedings vs amount of food at each feeding. Remember, his stomach is only about the size of his eyeball.

I have one concern: he’s not expanding his dorsal fin—otherwise his behaviour is encouraging & the other fins aren’t clamped.

Unless you see some kind of injury on the fin, he just doesn't find a need to open it. The dorsal fin is basically used for stability and aiding in things like turning or stopping. If he can do "his thing" without using the dorsal fin, it's not usually a big deal. Have you tried using a mirror to see if he opens it in attack mode?

Do u have any insights re this behaviour? What should i do? Is there perhaps too much salt?

Nope. Chemical issues would effect all fins not just one fin.

Please advise. TY

 

[EGGBERT]

Thanks for the input Andy!
I do have a gang valve installed, & the filter is pumping at a rate that appears non-disruptive to Egg/suitable for the job at hand.

His behaviour remains encouraging—appetite intact—(great advice re feeding technique)—& yeah: he flared enthusiastically when i showed him this fake betta i have!!!

(Btw, really enjoying the ‘sorority’—it’s been working out well—they r a hoot to observe—real busybodies—like my cats, they ‘have to know everything’, & i think—given the opportunity—they could eat themselves into comas!!! They, like Egg, r fed pellets & bloodworms—thing is, the assassins [until there’s a regular supply of ram’s horns] r in competition for the bloodworms Upside is, there’s nary a trace of uneaten grub!!!)

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks for the input Andy!
I do have a gang valve installed,

Did you correct this or did I miss the w/a because I was sure I saw " with no nozzle to control the flow".

& the filter is pumping at a rate that appears non-disruptive to Egg/suitable for the job at hand.

Just make sure it's flowing as fast as it can without causing disruption to the fish.

His behaviour remains encouraging—appetite intact—(great advice re feeding technique)—& yeah: he flared enthusiastically when i showed him this fake betta i have!!!

Sounds like he's recovered nicely.

(Btw, really enjoying the ‘sorority’—it’s been working out well—they r a hoot to observe—real busybodies—like my cats, they ‘have to know everything’, & i think—given the opportunity—they could eat themselves into comas!!! They, like Egg, r fed pellets & bloodworms—thing is, the assassins [until there’s a regular supply of ram’s horns] r in competition for the bloodworms Upside is, there’s nary a trace of uneaten grub!!!)

Just be careful with the "working out well" because with Bettas, they can turn on a dime. They are a real "Beetlejuice" kind of fish. You talk them up too much and them BAM!!!! One kills the rest of the tank. I had a customer once come into the store and was bragging how well his tank was doing to me and my response was just " You shouldn't have done that. You just killed your tank." Needless to say, he laughed at me. He bought some fish and went home. About 30 minutes later, the store phone rings and it's him asking for me. I get on the phone and he says " You sonuvab*tch!!!! How did you know????" Apparently, while he was out and came to the store, his heater stuck and the tank got cooked. Everybody died. Hand to God, that's a true story and I have witnesses to back me. So you see, this is why you never say things so positive. In your case, the right comment is, IMO, " So far so good. "
For now, I'm glad it's going along okay.

 

[EGGBERT]

I agree w/your position—globally—ie, i think ‘optimism’ is a good thing, but can put one on a dicey path, so i’ll amend my statement by saying “so far, so good; I’m cautiously optimistic…”!!!!!

They ARE extremely entertaining to observe!!!

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy (TGIF️)… I’m about to do a water change on Egg’s 5gal. In addition to a partial water change, the usual siphoning up of detritus, & a rinse-off of the filtration components.

Per our massive exchange on his treatment (both during & post-‘hospitalization’), i’m going to replace the saline w/‘plain’ conditioned water (unless u think i should replace w/saline?).

His behaviour continues on the positive track—he’s always very responsive to me (food svce!!!)—but, as u can see in these photos there r a couple of white bits on the ‘eyelid’ area.

Any advice/opinion on the depicted condition?
TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy (TGIF️)… I’m about to do a water change on Egg’s 5gal. In addition to a partial water change, the usual siphoning up of detritus, & a rinse-off of the filtration components.

Per our massive exchange on his treatment (both during & post-‘hospitalization’), i’m going to replace the saline w/‘plain’ conditioned water (unless u think i should replace w/saline?).

You can start to decrease the salt amount but do it gradually. I'd replace the salted water with unsalted water but no more than 1/2 gallon per water change. If you need to change more than 1/2 gallon of water, replace the water with less salty water, not totally unsalted water. ( Just so you know, decreasing salt is actually more dangerous than increasing it. If you do it too fast, the salt water in the fish's cells flushes out too quickly which can damage the organs. )

His behaviour continues on the positive track—he’s always very responsive to me (food svce!!!)—but, as u can see in these photos there r a couple of white bits on the ‘eyelid’ area.

Any advice/opinion on the depicted condition?
TY

For now, I'd leave it alone. It could be a few things, none of which are truly detrimental to the fish. At this point, the odds of it being treatable are extremely low. It may just scaling which is genetic and nothing you can do about. It's too soon IMO to treat the fish again for anything non life threatening. ( FYI, losing an eye is not life threatening to a fish. )