🆘 : Bewildering, mysterious behaviour change in Betta—there appears to be a neurological element (Hope ANDY sees this!!!)

[EGGBERT]

Thanks for the input Andy

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks for the input Andy

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy, got a problem that’s flummoxing me—partly because i haven’t had this issue practically since i dove headfirst into fishkeeping:
In the 10gal (housing the sorority & the assassins) has a spike in NITRITE—other key parameters within normal range: ammonia 0, pH 7.2, nitrate betw. 10-20.

I did a water change + rinsed filter media (in tank water) yesterday; have to do frequently due to the population (supposed to be temporary; bartered several of the assassins, but need to trade or give away more—investigating—primary trading spot can’t take any more—looking into alternative merchant).

‘Nitrite’ has not previously been an issue—it was the nitrate that tended to spike.

Please advise. TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, got a problem that’s flummoxing me—partly because i haven’t had this issue practically since i dove headfirst into fishkeeping:
In the 10gal (housing the sorority & the assassins) has a spike in NITRITE—other key parameters within normal range: ammonia 0, pH 7.2, nitrate betw. 10-20.

I did a water change + rinsed filter media (in tank water) yesterday; have to do frequently due to the population (supposed to be temporary; bartered several of the assassins, but need to trade or give away more—investigating—primary trading spot can’t take any more—looking into alternative merchant).

‘Nitrite’ has not previously been an issue—it was the nitrate that tended to spike.

Please advise. TY

Check the numbers again to confirm that reading and if it proves out, apparently you messed with the microbes that convert nitrite to nitrates when you cleaned the filter media. You would then either need to be doing water changes to keep the nitrite level under .25 ppm or you can add some of the filter material from another established tank or you can add Fritzyme #7, Turbo 700, Dr Tim's one and only or Tetra brand Safestart. ( Not any other brand of safestart.) to inoculate that microbe again.

 

[EGGBERT]

I’ve got ‘Tim’s one & only’—just added a few capfuls (no suitable filtration material available at this time—all extra stuff redistributed; nitrite is the same as when i dispatched my note to u: low—a bit above 0—‘powder blue’). How much time should lapse before i recheck?

Another weird issue (see photo). Pictured is Egg’s feeding spot in the 5gal (did h2o change along w/usual siphoning yesterday. Have no issues w/parameters in this tank).

As u can see, this ‘film’ develops; have tried siphoning it out of the area; what is it/what causes it/is there a way to remove or prevent it?

 

[Andy Sager]

I’ve got ‘Tim’s one & only’—just added a few capfuls (no suitable filtration material available at this time—all extra stuff redistributed; nitrite is the same as when i dispatched my note to u: low—a bit above 0—‘powder blue’). How much time should lapse before i recheck?

Check it tomorrow. You just need to keep the level below .25 ppm to prevent any adverse issues with the fish.

Another weird issue (see photo). Pictured is Egg’s feeding spot in the 5gal (did h2o change along w/usual siphoning yesterday. Have no issues w/parameters in this tank).

As u can see, this ‘film’ develops; have tried siphoning it out of the area; what is it/what causes it/is there a way to remove or prevent it?

Film develops from the atmosphere on stagnant water. inside the ring is stagnant water. To prevent it, take the ring out when not feeding.

 

[EGGBERT]

TY ANDY!!!!!

 

[EGGBERT]

Good afternoon Andy…
10gal crisis continues—nitrite is still a scintilla above 0 (powder blue); what can i do to encourage/continue the readjustment process?
Do i add more Tim’s o & o? Water change?
Please advise. TY

 

[EGGBERT]

Per what u said, the nitrite is not dangerously high (good)—ammonia is 0 (good)—pH stable (good)—but the nitrate is betw. 20-40!!!!! Water change w/Tim’s o & o?
Please advise. TY

 

[EGGBERT]

Correction: Nitrate @ 40

 

[EGGBERT]

Did partial water change—added water conditioned w/Tim’s…

The sisters appear undisturbed—remaining on their perpetual hunt for edibles…

(I found another reputable merchant to take some of the assassins. I’ll keep the tiny babies & the most mature adults.)

 

[Andy Sager]

Good afternoon Andy…
10gal crisis continues—nitrite is still a scintilla above 0 (powder blue); what can i do to encourage/continue the readjustment process?
Do i add more Tim’s o & o? Water change?
Please advise. TY

Take a water sample to your favorite shop and have them test your water.

When it comes to fish keeping, the old adage always applies: "When in doubt, do a water change with good clean new water. "

 

[EGGBERT]

Hey Andy (or should i address u as ‘Doc’: u mentioned veterinary school—r u a vet w/a specialty in pets that swim?)…

Re Egg… Remember the salt water was remarkably beneficial—& when he was ready for his transfer from the hospital tank to his home tank (5gal), i prepared it w/salt (1tsp/gal).

Since his rtn home, i’ve done a few water changes + replaced some water (due to evaporation). The changes & replacement were using plain (non-saline) conditioned water.

I’m bringing this up because we’d discussed the possibility of keeping Egg in saline ongoingly; if u still feel that’s a good move, i’m wondering how that would translate to water changes. I.e.: i get that water evaporation calls for replenishment w/plain water (salt level remains the same)—but what about water ‘replacement’? E.g., if i remove 1.5gals of water, should i replace it w/water that contains 1.5tsps of salt? Or is 1tsp/gal too potent for a non-hospital tank?

Btw, Egg is doing GREAT!!! Unlike the truly sad behaviour that landed him in a hospital tank, he appears happy & remains wildly enthusiastic about food (pellets & bloodworms).

Please advise. TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy (or should i address u as ‘Doc’: u mentioned veterinary school—r u a vet w/a specialty in pets that swim?)…

Actually, I was already commercially breeding fish when I started college with pre vet classes but left college when I learned that I had about a .000000001% chance of getting into an advanced Vet School due to bad grades. Sadly, school was all about grades, not knowledge. ( Back then, it was near impossible to get into any Vet schools with less than a 4.0 grade average. I had barely a 3.0 grade average because I didn't test well. It wasn't until I was out of school that my Sister, a special ed teacher, deduced that I had dyslexia. Too late to do anything about it. ) I was in 2 College level Anatomy and Physiology classes in High School and was the group leader when we were assigned animals to dissect. ( I did more than frogs. ) But that didn't matter. I had A+ knowledge but B- grades. People in the pet trade already knew me from stores I was working in before college and were throwing money at me to work for them so that was the route I went. My specialty, beside fish keeping, was the medical part of keeping fish healthy. So I'm not legally a Dr but I have had DVMs offer me jobs in their practices even without a degree because I impressed them with what I knew. (One even told me he could tell I knew more than 2 of the Drs in his practice. LOL ) And that is why I'm here trying to help others like yourself. Why waste the knowledge?

Re Egg… Remember the salt water was remarkably beneficial—& when he was ready for his transfer from the hospital tank to his home tank (5gal), i prepared it w/salt (1tsp/gal).

Since his rtn home, i’ve done a few water changes + replaced some water (due to evaporation). The changes & replacement were using plain (non-saline) conditioned water.

I’m bringing this up because we’d discussed the possibility of keeping Egg in saline ongoingly; if u still feel that’s a good move, i’m wondering how that would translate to water changes. I.e.: i get that water evaporation calls for replenishment w/plain water (salt level remains the same)—but what about water ‘replacement’? E.g., if i remove 1.5gals of water, should i replace it w/water that contains 1.5tsps of salt? Or is 1tsp/gal too potent for a non-hospital tank?

Btw, Egg is doing GREAT!!! Unlike the truly sad behaviour that landed him in a hospital tank, he appears happy & remains wildly enthusiastic about food (pellets & bloodworms).

Here's the bottom line to all that: Since we weren't sure how he would react under different scenarios, I had to give you a lot of " if this then that" information. Right now, since you say he's doing great in water that no longer has a true therapeutic amount of salt in it by now, you can throw away all the other info I gave you. The only thing that will matter is if he starts to go downhill again. If that happens again, the first thing I would do is put him back into salted water because his body would obviously be missing minerals.

Please advise. TY

Where do I send you my bill?

 

[EGGBERT]

That’ll be some bill!!! & it’ll accrue’cause i have more Qs!!!!! THANKS for the ongoing enlightenment Doc

 

[EGGBERT]

ANDY!!! Hope all’s well w/u!!!
I do most of this correspondence on my cell phone, on which my internet connection is wonky & sometimes responses appear in fragments, or they’re incomplete or delayed

Because of that i missed your description of your veterinary background—fascinating, & not surprising: u r tremendously knowledgeable & wonderfully helpful. I’m glad to learn that u’ve always been appreciated & kinda bucked the system. The ‘system’ is too dogmatic & rigid—‘rules & regs’ need to be flexed at times; a ‘certificate’ or an ‘official ranking’ doesn’t make a genius—the ‘genius’ is purely in the grey matter (garnished w/heart & soul) of the actor

Anyway, re Egg…
His behaviour remains positive—he appears ‘happy’… I’ve done a few water changes to the 5gal since he transitioned from the hospital cube. Water parameters r stable.
The ‘but’ factor here is, i think he’s developed a spot of fungus near his eye, & i’m wondering—since he & the snails r the 5gal’s sole occupants, & we’ve established that all—even the plants—r tolerant of saline—could i just add a tsp of aquarium salt when i do the next water change? & keep that up for successive water changes, for a while at least?
(There’s likely still at least a trace of salt remaining from his rtn since we agreed to transition him gradually back to regular water.)

There’s something else (health related) that i don’t expect u to have any solutions for, but it needs to be shared: i think Egg is at least partially blind, & the really, really bizarre thing is that he exhibited the same symptoms months ago, but they self-resolved—very freaky…

It’s 2 distinct conditions: his enlarged eye may have ‘diamond scale’ (that’s where the spot of fungus mentioned above is)—& there’s a filmy ring over the iris of his ‘normal’ eye (ie, UNDER the cornea).

I was pretty gobsmacked when the condition appeared/disappeared once—if it self-resolves again, terrific—if not, he seems pretty adaptable—all that friggin gene-splicing didn’t mess w/that!!!

So what next Doc?

 

[Andy Sager]

ANDY!!! Hope all’s well w/u!!!
I do most of this correspondence on my cell phone, on which my internet connection is wonky & sometimes responses appear in fragments, or they’re incomplete or delayed

Because of that i missed your description of your veterinary background—fascinating, & not surprising: u r tremendously knowledgeable & wonderfully helpful. I’m glad to learn that u’ve always been appreciated & kinda bucked the system. The ‘system’ is too dogmatic & rigid—‘rules & regs’ need to be flexed at times; a ‘certificate’ or an ‘official ranking’ doesn’t make a genius—the ‘genius’ is purely in the grey matter (garnished w/heart & soul) of the actor

You're gonna make me blush. Yeah, as I once asked my A & P lab Prof when I misspelled Patella on a test, " If you had a broken one, would you prefer I know how to fix it or know how to spell it? " ( Unfortunately, he told me, " I'd rather you know how to fix it but the school wants you to spell it too. :^s ) But such is life.

Anyway, re Egg…
His behaviour remains positive—he appears ‘happy’… I’ve done a few water changes to the 5gal since he transitioned from the hospital cube. Water parameters r stable.
The ‘but’ factor here is, i think he’s developed a spot of fungus near his eye, & i’m wondering—since he & the snails r the 5gal’s sole occupants, & we’ve established that all—even the plants—r tolerant of saline—could i just add a tsp of aquarium salt when i do the next water change? & keep that up for successive water changes, for a while at least?
(There’s likely still at least a trace of salt remaining from his rtn since we agreed to transition him gradually back to regular water.)

Are you positive it's fungus? ( usually a fuzzy patch like this: )A clear picture would help. Salt is not the best treatment for true fungus while it can over the long haul, treat it. Fritz makes a product (Expel-F) that treats true fungus on fish. This is a better route if it's truly a fungus.

There’s something else (health related) that i don’t expect u to have any solutions for, but it needs to be shared: i think Egg is at least partially blind, & the really, really bizarre thing is that he exhibited the same symptoms months ago, but they self-resolved—very freaky…

It’s 2 distinct conditions: his enlarged eye may have ‘diamond scale’ (that’s where the spot of fungus mentioned above is)—& there’s a filmy ring over the iris of his ‘normal’ eye (ie, UNDER the cornea).

This is part of the problem with the dragonscale/ metallic genetics. There's nothing you can do for it medically and the fish will eventually be completely blind in that eye. This is where consistency and habits come into play. The fish will become used to going to a certain part of the tank for food ( based on what the other eye sees) and changing things in the tank, besides water, can actually be more stressful on the fish. This film is likely a reaction to something in the water. When the "something" isn't in the water, the condition reverses because clean water is a Betta's best friend. I don't know about Canada but in the States where public water is gotten directly from rivers, the water parameters change based on the seasons so it can be good in one season and bad or drastically different in another. In places where water is treated before going to the public, water companies intermittently clean the pipes by adding more chemical to it which can also be a problem if you don't use enough water conditioner. It's really a big problem for the average fish hobbyist. In the past, we had an issue when the water company switched from chlorine to chloramine because the water conditioners at that time didn't deal with chloramine. A lot of people and stores lost their fish when that happened. So what's the alternative? Calling the water company before doing a water change to confirm they aren't cleaning their pipes. Testing your source water before adding it to the tank. Installing a filter on your water lines that removes everything to prevent anything from happening. Do people do this? No, it's time consuming, potentially expensive and more or less, a pain in the arse. :^s So you deal with the consequences. As for the genetic problems in Bettas, there is a solution: stop buying the ones with the genetic faults. When the breeders can't sell their fish, they will move on to something else that doesn't have the genetic faults. Personally, I love the old doubletail veiltails. It's very difficult to find those these days. You have the 1/2 moon doubletails but the majority of those are stubby bodied. I don't like that so I don't buy them. But that's me. I'm fussy.

I was pretty gobsmacked when the condition appeared/disappeared once—if it self-resolves again, terrific—if not, he seems pretty adaptable—all that friggin gene-splicing didn’t mess w/that!!!

So what next Doc?

There are a couple of things floating in my head regarding this eye issue and possible fungus and your old cyano issue. The fungus and cyano are more common in more stagnant water. I believe you have a filter in the 5 but you may need to up the flow rate so that the water is flowing more and breaking up the surface more for better oxygenation but not to the point that the fish has an issue with stability and swimming. This may help eliminate these different issues.
Another potential solution is to use botanicals in the water ( you may need to remove the snails tho) that will release tannins into the water which have a good antibacterial effect for the fish. This means you are going to have to get used to having the water a tannish/ brown appearance ( which is why most people don't use botanicals). It's what makes the water brown that contains the antibacterial properties. :^/

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy!!! As always, u never disappoint!!! U’ve provided a lot to contemplate.

I’ve attached a couple of shots of the ‘fungal’ spot; it hasn’t increased & his behaviour remains optimal. The water quality/properties where i live r considered excellent (haven’t done deep dive to confirm w/data, but most folks here don’t bother w/filtration units—drink straight from the tap. I’m not one of those folks because i’m a bit fanatic about certain matters…)

For now i’ll just keep a close eye on him.

I have another ‘health & disease’ related matter for your consideration:
Remember the ‘adhesion-challenged’ hillstream (kept sliding down the aquarium walls)? Well, that’s Flower (named for his markings)—the randy adult male.

The adhesion issue self-resolved, & overall he’s doing brilliantly, BUT, he & he alone—(ie, not spotted at all, ever on any of the others)—is subject to what appears to be some fin erosion (fin rot? i’ve treated in the past w/kanaplex & API pimafix & melafix).

I shared a photo of the condition w/an employee at one of the aquarium stores i’ve traded my assassins at (posted here too, following Egg’s pix). His opinion was that it might be wear & tear from mating activity, which is not totally implausible, but i’m interested in your take on the matter.

[The frogs’ AND the hillstreams’ procreative activity persists My ‘experiment’ in the 2.5gal has not been wildly successful: the fry continue to perish—but i’m hoping that eventually one or more will persevere. There r a couple in there now (i transfer viable eggs or hatched fry from the 20gal. They’ve mostly been frogs. The frogs leave their eggs at tank top, the hillstreams distribute them mostly on plants, hither & yon; this is my deduction at any rate)].

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy!!! As always, u never disappoint!!! U’ve provided a lot to contemplate.

I aim to please.

I’ve attached a couple of shots of the ‘fungal’ spot; it hasn’t increased & his behaviour remains optimal.

I don't see fungus/fuzz as much as a white spot. There's no blood, no fuzz and considering it's near the bulging eye, it's probably just skin or a colorless scale. I would leave it be if it's not getting worse.

The water quality/properties where i live r considered excellent (haven’t done deep dive to confirm w/data, but most folks here don’t bother w/filtration units—drink straight from the tap.

Doesn't mean diddly. You can't see hard or soft water, acidic or alkaline water, certain chemicals in water how much salt is in the water, etc., etc. etc. Without the numbers. all water is suspect to me. My old neighbor drank the water here and it smells from Sulphur so your neighbors not using filters is meaningless. I filter my water even tho it's well water (so no chemicals in it) before drinking it.

I’m not one of those folks because i’m a bit fanatic about certain matters…)

For now i’ll just keep a close eye on him.

I have another ‘health & disease’ related matter for your consideration:
Remember the ‘adhesion-challenged’ hillstream (kept sliding down the aquarium walls)? Well, that’s Flower (named for his markings)—the randy adult male.

The adhesion issue self-resolved, & overall he’s doing brilliantly, BUT, he & he alone—(ie, not spotted at all, ever on any of the others)—is subject to what appears to be some fin erosion (fin rot? i’ve treated in the past w/kanaplex & API pimafix & melafix).

I shared a photo of the condition w/an employee at one of the aquarium stores i’ve traded my assassins at (posted here too, following Egg’s pix). His opinion was that it might be wear & tear from mating activity, which is not totally implausible, but i’m interested in your take on the matter.

Since there is no blood or sign of infection, I agree with him. Breeders get beat up sometimes from prepping areas for spawning, testing potential mates, etc so fin decay or rips are not unusual.

[The frogs’ AND the hillstreams’ procreative activity persists My ‘experiment’ in the 2.5gal has not been wildly successful: the fry continue to perish—but i’m hoping that eventually one or more will persevere. There r a couple in there now (i transfer viable eggs or hatched fry from the 20gal. They’ve mostly been frogs. The frogs leave their eggs at tank top, the hillstreams distribute them mostly on plants, hither & yon; this is my deduction at any rate)].

Yes, the loaches are egg scatterers so it's not as easy finding them. If the fry are not surviving, that sounds like it's a food problem. You are not feeding them the right starter foods. Smaller fish like that usually start off needing infusoria or microworms like vinegar eels as a first food. From there, newly hatched brine shrimp, from there algae and biofilm. You can't expect them to start off on just algae. ( FYI, this is why using a bare bottom tank for fry is better so that the fry don't have too hard a time finding the food. ) The frogs are a different story. They are usually large enough to start with newly hatched brine shrimp, daphnia, algae, blanched vegetables and crushed frog pellets. Small amounts of the different foods multiple times per day. Then you need to also be doing water changes to keep the water clean. Fry and tadpoles need clean water.
So just more stuff to consider.

 

[EGGBERT]

THANKS yet again for more helpful input

I have been water changing frequently in the ‘experiment’ tank. I’ve been squirting in daphnia—dust particle fine, & yeah, there r plants & algae growth.

I’m very bugged by the discrepancies among different sources re particular fishkeeping factors—eg: lifespan… diet… best/worst tank mates… ideal tank size…

At least one source indicated that fry can nourish themselves on algae, certain nutritious tank detritus, & microorganisms that naturally appear in such an environment. Then there’s infusoria—the closest i have to that is the daphnia

The fry r so minuscule that it’s impossible to see ‘how’ they might eat, let alone ‘what’.

I’ve setup another seat-of-one’s-pants experiment; will let u know in a day or so if it was effective or another bust. However it turns out, it’s undeniably gripping!!!