🆘 : Bewildering, mysterious behaviour change in Betta—there appears to be a neurological element (Hope ANDY sees this!!!)

[Andy Sager]

THANKS yet again for more helpful input

I have been water changing frequently in the ‘experiment’ tank. I’ve been squirting in daphnia—dust particle fine, & yeah, there r plants & algae growth.

I’m very bugged by the discrepancies among different sources re particular fishkeeping factors—eg: lifespan… diet… best/worst tank mates… ideal tank size…

All those are variable based on what kind of fish you are keeping i.e. farmed vs wild caught. I find wild caught fish are healthier than farmed ones. Best tankmates are the ones found together in the wild. Worst are the ones that aren't found with them. Unfortunately, we like to keep mixed tanks so everybody's experiences are going to be different. Lifespan is all dependent on diet and water quality, plain and simple. If you put a softwater fish in hard water, it will shorten their lifespan. If you put a softwater fish in really hard water, it will really shorten their lifespan. If you put a farmed softwater fish that has been bred in hard water, the fry will live longer in hard water than their wild counterparts would. See, it's all variable and dependent on a lot of factors.
Ideal tank size? Swimming fish should be in larger tanks. Stationary fish don't need bigger tanks. Can swimming fish be in smaller tanks, Yes. The side effect of this is generally aggression. Could be to other members of the school or other tank mates.

At least one source indicated that fry can nourish themselves on algae, certain nutritious tank detritus, & microorganisms that naturally appear in such an environment. Then there’s infusoria—the closest i have to that is the daphnia

Ask 50 breeders how they raise their fry and you'll get probably 25 different answers. Getting just 1 person to say what you want to hear is not a good ratio and could easily be dumb luck.

The fry r so minuscule that it’s impossible to see ‘how’ they might eat, let alone ‘what’.

See below.

I’ve setup another seat-of-one’s-pants experiment; will let u know in a day or so if it was effective or another bust. However it turns out, it’s undeniably gripping!!!

Yeah, there is a lot of information, misinformation and outright BS online and in pet stores these days. Here's what I know to be true:
Daphnia is no where near as small as infusoria but it's easy enough to grow your own cultures. ( Check this out:

)
When you use a bare bottom tank, you can see the fry better and you can see when they are feeding.
When you feed infusoria, you will see the fish's bellies get rounder. When you start using other foods, they turn the color of the food you are feeding i.e. orange with brine shrimp, green with algae fed daphnia, white with vinegar eels.
A good magnifying glass is a breeder's best friend.
If you really want to be successful at rearing fish fry, you have to apply the old insanity example: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. " Small fry need small food. Smaller fry need much smaller food. That is usually is what small food eats. You have smaller fry.

 

[EGGBERT]

Can’t argue w/common sense, Andy
Looking forward to viewing the vid—thanks for providing!!!
U know i’ll report back w/developments &/more Qs!!!

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy!!! I watched that video (infusoria culturing); BRILLIANT—& so bloody simple!!!

It’s too bad the author appears to be inactive

Thanks again for the continued guidance—i am going to generate some of those ‘invisibles’!!!

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy!!! I watched that video (infusoria culturing); BRILLIANT—& so bloody simple!!!

It’s too bad the author appears to be inactive

Thanks again for the continued guidance—i am going to generate some of those ‘invisibles’!!!

It's a little different than what I have done in the past but it definitely shows that that is all it takes to make them. I'm currently studying up on micro foods for certain marine fish larvae and my eyes are so wide open because it's about using things that are so small, you HAVE to use a microscope to see them. You can see infusoria with the naked eye, you can't see these foods that way.

 

[EGGBERT]

Hi Andy So these marine fish larvae—r u producing/raising them or r u just extending your knowledge? It’s all quite absorbing/fascinating, huh?

I setup a bottle w/banana peel, a bit of lettuce, & some h2o from the 20gal (in which the frogs & hillstreams r still at it Phenomenal… The hillstreams r fun to watch; the frogs? I’m astounded that the female has survived all that gripping).

For the time being i’m converting the hospital tank into a ‘nursery’ (it’s cycling—no one inhabitants yet, & per your suggestion, no substrate.)
The tank is 1.5gals (emergency purchase for Egg). I’m considering getting a couple of Otos to bottom-clean Egg’s 5gal (the 2 nerites r strictly algae eaters; i feed Egg lightly—bloodworms tweezer-offered or pellets. He’s definitively half blind so sometimes food disperses before he gets to it—that’s why i inquired about potential additional ‘cleaning staff’. The person i discussed possible new intros with encouraged quarantining for a couple of wks to play it safe, so i’d use the 2.5gal for that. He described the store’s protocol, which i think u’d approve of—they’re pretty level. Fyi, here’s their url:

https://yourlocalfishstore.com/)

Also purchased some plants from one of those ‘tissue culture’ venues u recommended

Are u familiar w/this retailer? (they seem pretty responsible/caring): https://dansfish.com/catalog

 

[Andy Sager]

Hi Andy So these marine fish larvae—r u producing/raising them or r u just extending your knowledge? It’s all quite absorbing/fascinating, huh?

For now, just increasing my knowledge base because when/if I ever retire, I plan on trying to breed some myself. I've lived through the whole start of breeding marine aquarium fish and have seen how far it's come but the prices for now are still a bit out of reach for the average aquarist. I'd like to do something about that.

I setup a bottle w/banana peel, a bit of lettuce, & some h2o from the 20gal (in which the frogs & hillstreams r still at it Phenomenal… The hillstreams r fun to watch; the frogs? I’m astounded that the female has survived all that gripping).

For the time being i’m converting the hospital tank into a ‘nursery’ (it’s cycling—no one inhabitants yet, & per your suggestion, no substrate.)

Personally, I'd put a sponge filter in the breeder's tank to cycle it and not worry about cycling another tank. If you see a spawn, take some water from the 20, and put it in the rearing/hatching tank with an air stone and no filter. When the eggs hatch, you will see them wiggling. once they use up their yolk sac, you start feeding them and THEN you add the filter. You don't want a filter producing nitrates when the eggs haven't hatched yet. Every one of my hatching tanks got started the day they had eggs put into them. ( The fry in this pic just started free swimming that morning but you can see, all that was in there was an airstone: IMG 1167 )

The tank is 1.5gals (emergency purchase for Egg). I’m considering getting a couple of Otos to bottom-clean Egg’s 5gal

Bad idea, that tank is too small for Otos. Otos do better in schools than in couples and a 5 gal is not big enough for a school. Stick with snails. Consider either 1 small mystery snail or ramshorn snail. Ramshorn will populate the tank but you have assassins you could feed any excess to. Mystery snails can a bit large but they lay eggs above the waterline so they are very easy to control populations of. You just need 1 snail. It will not be lonely. I actually use wild Apple snails in my current tanks of native fish. I just shave off any egg casings if they lay them.

(the 2 nerites r strictly algae eaters; i feed Egg lightly—bloodworms tweezer-offered or pellets. He’s definitively half blind so sometimes food disperses before he gets to it—that’s why i inquired about potential additional ‘cleaning staff’. The person i discussed possible new intros with encouraged quarantining for a couple of wks to play it safe, so i’d use the 2.5gal for that. He described the store’s protocol, which i think u’d approve of—they’re pretty level. Fyi, here’s their url:

https://yourlocalfishstore.com/)

I saw what they posted. 2 weeks is a bit too short for me for fish. If they do 2 weeks, I'd add another 6 weeks. You will see bacterial or fungal infections in that time but parasites can take much longer to show.

Also purchased some plants from one of those ‘tissue culture’ venues u recommended

After you've had them a while and they are growing and doing well, why not post a review of them here for other live plant people?

Are u familiar w/this retailer? (they seem pretty responsible/caring): https://dansfish.com/catalog

I know OF Dan's fish but I do not KNOW Dan. When I went to Yellowstone in 2024, I asked if I could come to their facility as a professional courtesy ( since I was literally passing by it on my route) to see for myself and possibly pick up some breeding stock but was told no outside people were allowed. He's done some youtube vids of his place and it looks nice but I don't buy fish sight unseen so I have no first hand experience of how well his fish do.

 

[EGGBERT]

Having big probs w/this site. Had typed in a loooong response to the various sections of your reply to me—kept getting a ‘security error’ prompt—had to refresh to enable posting of the attached photo.

Now i’ll try to reiterate in an abridged fashion!

Firstly, please continue to share about the marine fish micro-food culturing!!! Kudos to your ongoing passion to learn!

Re Dan’s… It’s disappointing/off-putting to learn that they ungenerously turned away a fellow aquarist. I wonder if they had something to hide that they feared a perspicacious, knowledgeable dude like u would perceive. In any case, their loss!!!

I setup the prospective ‘nursery’ (1.5gal) before i read your recommendation (airstone alone, water from 20gal).
I’d set it up w/conditioned water & 2 capfuls of dr T’s one & only—just tested parameters:

pH 7.6, nitrite 0, ammonia betw. 0 & .25ppm, nitrate ~5ppm.

The ‘filtration’ unit is intended for bettas; as u’ll see, it’s an aerator w/a sponge.

Not safe to add anything yet?
There r a few likely hillstream eggs visible in the 20gal—i’d love to add them before the frogs find them!!!

Please advise. TY!!!!!

 

[EGGBERT]

Added a couple plants

 

[Andy Sager]

Having big probs w/this site. Had typed in a loooong response to the various sections of your reply to me—kept getting a ‘security error’ prompt—had to refresh to enable posting of the attached photo.

Now i’ll try to reiterate in an abridged fashion!

Firstly, please continue to share about the marine fish micro-food culturing!!! Kudos to your ongoing passion to learn!

Re Dan’s… It’s disappointing/off-putting to learn that they ungenerously turned away a fellow aquarist. I wonder if they had something to hide that they feared a perspicacious, knowledgeable dude like u would perceive. In any case, their loss!!!

I setup the prospective ‘nursery’ (1.5gal) before i read your recommendation (airstone alone, water from 20gal).
I’d set it up w/conditioned water & 2 capfuls of dr T’s one & only—just tested parameters:

pH 7.6, nitrite 0, ammonia betw. 0 & .25ppm, nitrate ~5ppm.

The ‘filtration’ unit is intended for bettas; as u’ll see, it’s an aerator w/a sponge.

Not safe to add anything yet?
There r a few likely hillstream eggs visible in the 20gal—i’d love to add them before the frogs find them!!!

Please advise. TY!!!!!

It's only 1.5 gallons, toss it all and start over. Start with a clean tank. No Dr Tims. Use 1/2 water from the 20, 1/2 new dechlorinated water of same temp and pH. Get rid of the plants and decorations. All that should be in the tank is a heater and air stone. Add nothing until the eggs hatch. Look at the image I posted in last response. The only thing in there is air stones, heater and the rock the eggs were laid on. That's all you need until AFTER the eggs hatch.
I had Angelfish eggs which are very sticky so they couldn't be removed from the rock. If your eggs are not attached to anything, just remove the eggs to the hatching tank.

 

[EGGBERT]

Okie doke—did exactly as you prescribed: tank naked, except for the necessary hardware & the few eggs i harvested that may/may not be viable. Setup the infusoria vessel on Friday—hopefully, the formation of the nearly-invisible-edibles will coincide w/survivor(s). Will report back w/anything noteworthy!

Thanks for the continued guidance

 

[Andy Sager]

Okie doke—did exactly as you prescribed: tank naked, except for the necessary hardware & the few eggs i harvested that may/may not be viable. Setup the infusoria vessel on Friday—hopefully, the formation of the nearly-invisible-edibles will coincide w/survivor(s). Will report back w/anything noteworthy!

Thanks for the continued guidance

Take note of how long it takes to get from setting up the infusoria culture to having infusoria to feed the fry so you know how soon or long you have to get the food ready for the free swimming fry.
And this brings us to the next step. When the eggs hatch, the wigglers will have a small yolk sac that they will feed off of before they become " free swimming". DO NOT FEED the fry during this stage. Take note of how many days and at what temperature it takes for the fry to consume their yolk sac and combine that with how many days it takes the infusoria to develop so you can know when to start the cultures ( unless you keep making new cultures from the initial culture) for the next time. Once you see the fry swimming, or in this case just moving around and not just wiggling, THEN you introduce some of the infusoria culture for them to feed on. Most likely the fry will stick together at the start so I strongly suggest you get yourself a turkey baster from a dollar store ( or the Canadian equivalent) and when it becomes time to feed the fry, gently blow a small amount of the culture towards the fry with the baster. Don't try measuring how much culture to pour into the tank. Suck up a small amount of the critters in the baster then gently blow them into the tank towards the fry. Do this at least 2 -3 times per day. ( Take note of how the fry look before and after the feeding so you know when to feed them again. They should have full bellies after feeding, skinny bellies before feeding. The longer you keep them with full bellies per day, the faster they will grow. You will probably only need to feed them this infusoria for about 5-7 days but could take as long as 2 weeks before moving them onto their next level food.
After the first day of seeing the fry eating, THEN put in a seasoned sponge filter, not the Dr Tims. ( Give them a day where they don't have to hunt for the food. They will hunt for it after knowing that it is there. ) You do not want to first cycle a filter in a fry tank. You want an established filter to go in there so if it's not already in there, stick the fry's sponge filter in the 20 and have it running so you just need to move it over to the fry tank when it's time.
We'll get into the next level food(s) once you have fry feeding on Infusoria.

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy—your instructions r fantastic—so thorough—THANK YOU

Re the infusoria, per the instructions on that vid u shared—(& i have viewed other vids on the topic, but i like this guy’s straightforward/dead simple approach)—i’ve been gently agitating the mixture throughout the day. There r observable particles that appear to be plant matter—ie, doesn’t look like tiny organisms—no motility—then again, perhaps i need to retrain my eyes (& yeah, i do have a magnifying glass & several basters, droppers, siphons—the works!).

Re the eggs—not sure if this batch will manifest; at least i’m learning & will be better prepared for the next go round!!!

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy—your instructions r fantastic—so thorough—THANK YOU

You're welcome.

Re the infusoria, per the instructions on that vid u shared—(& i have viewed other vids on the topic, but i like this guy’s straightforward/dead simple approach)

Me too. Very simple and straight forward. Much easier than me typing it all out.

—i’ve been gently agitating the mixture throughout the day. There r observable particles that appear to be plant matter—ie, doesn’t look like tiny organisms—no motility—then again, perhaps i need to retrain my eyes (& yeah, i do have a magnifying glass & several basters, droppers, siphons—the works!).

You seem to have missed a step. In about 3-4 days you will see cloudy water with no shaking of the bottle. That's the food for the infusoria. You shake the bottle to aerate the water not to see the critters. When the cloudy water starts to clear, then you will start to see the infusoria. No need to look for them before then. That should be happening at about day 6 or 7. Just keep track on paper how long all that takes in YOUR water conditions.

Re the eggs—not sure if this batch will manifest; at least i’m learning & will be better prepared for the next go round!!!

Breeding fish is easy. Raising the fry isn't. It's definitely a process to learn. If raising fish fry was easy, everybody would be doing it. My Mentor would make me master one specie at a time before he would let me move on to another one. It's how I got so prolific at raising fish. Once you have the timing down, the rest is child's play.

 

[EGGBERT]

Hey Andy (i should start calling u Doc or Obi Wan!!!)…
I received the AquaFlora plants today—they’re looking fine, but haven’t freed them from their plastic yet.
I wanted confirmation of the ‘pest-free’/purportedly good to go status of the company’s produce.
Here’s what appeared under FAQ:

“Are your plants pest free?

Our plants are grown in outdoor nurseries and therefore, we can never guarantee 100% that they are pest free. Our staff thoroughly cleans them before shipping them to us, but there is always a chance that pests hitch a ride undetected.

We always suggest our customers dip any plants in an solution of Aluminum Sulphate for 4-5 hours before introducing them into the desired tank. The concentration we recommend is 1 tablespoon of Alum Powder per 1 gallon.”

I want to add the plants to various tanks asap; don’t have alum—can i use h peroxide instead (have plenty on hand)?

Do u find it disillusioning that these plants r not after all ‘guaranteed pest free’? I don’t regret the purchase, but that FAQ entry seems to defeat the purpose.

What’s your opinion?

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy (i should start calling u Doc or Obi Wan!!!)…
I received the AquaFlora plants today—they’re looking fine, but haven’t freed them from their plastic yet.
I wanted confirmation of the ‘pest-free’/purportedly good to go status of the company’s produce.
Here’s what appeared under FAQ:

“Are your plants pest free?

Our plants are grown in outdoor nurseries and therefore, we can never guarantee 100% that they are pest free. Our staff thoroughly cleans them before shipping them to us, but there is always a chance that pests hitch a ride undetected.

We always suggest our customers dip any plants in an solution of Aluminum Sulphate for 4-5 hours before introducing them into the desired tank. The concentration we recommend is 1 tablespoon of Alum Powder per 1 gallon.”

I want to add the plants to various tanks asap; don’t have alum—can i use h peroxide instead (have plenty on hand)?

Do u find it disillusioning that these plants r not after all ‘guaranteed pest free’? I don’t regret the purchase, but that FAQ entry seems to defeat the purpose.

What’s your opinion?

Well that's a bit disconcerting. At least they are giving you fair warning tho. That's more than most places.
As for using the peroxide, you haven't seemed to have been successful killing off snails when you did that so CAN you use the peroxide dip? Yes. Should you assume 100% that it will be successful? Based on past results, I'd say NO.
Another option is a bleach dip. It's a little more labor intensive but might be better for you. Here's how you do that: 6 Easy Steps to Bleach Dip Aquarium Plants

Another option if you don't want to bleach is to just quarantine the plants for a week or so and to see if there are snails on them. If there are, they should come off in the first day or so. If no snails, then I'd do a dip to kill any potential eggs that may be on the plants.

Worst case, if you do nothing and it ends up you do have snails, you have assassin snails. Just pick the snails you don't want and put them in the tank with the assassins and let them take care of them. Don't wait for them to grow or anything, just get rid of them as soon as you see them.

 

[EGGBERT]

Hmmm… I think i’ll take my chance w/snails & employ the assassins if necessary. I rinsed the plants in conditioned water & they’re now sitting in conditioned water waiting for their next assignment! The plants r beautiful/undeniably healthy looking—not feeling apprehensive about distributing them.

Re the fry experiment, from the few eggs that i was able to harvest, there’s one very much alive creature; there’s one or two still developing in their translucent casing.

They r minuscule—the emerged one can’t be more than a mm long; is there an average timespan for the ingestion of the yolk sac or is that a variable from creature to creature?

The infusoria formation was initiated on Friday, so per what u wrote above, we’re a few days off from visible new life

In the meantime the hillstreams r canoodling unabashedly in broad daylight, so i guess more potential life-forming is in the mix!!!

 

[Andy Sager]

Hmmm… I think i’ll take my chance w/snails & employ the assassins if necessary. I rinsed the plants in conditioned water & they’re now sitting in conditioned water waiting for their next assignment! The plants r beautiful/undeniably healthy looking—not feeling apprehensive about distributing them.

Re the fry experiment, from the few eggs that i was able to harvest, there’s one very much alive creature; there’s one or two still developing in their translucent casing.

They r minuscule—the emerged one can’t be more than a mm long; is there an average timespan for the ingestion of the yolk sac or is that a variable from creature to creature?

It all depends on water temps. The colder the water, the slower fry grow. Just watch and take notes. As for the size, now you know why you need such small food to start them off with.

The infusoria formation was initiated on Friday, so per what u wrote above, we’re a few days off from visible new life

Just keep taking notes and timing and temps.

In the meantime the hillstreams r canoodling unabashedly in broad daylight, so i guess more potential life-forming is in the mix!!!

This is why "When in doubt, sacrifice the fry, not the breeders because the breeders can make more faster than the fry can. "

 

[EGGBERT]

In the immortal words of the Terminator, ‘I’ll be baack…’

 

[Andy Sager]

In the immortal words of the Terminator, ‘I’ll be baack…’

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy, there r ‘4’ fry in the nursery (to my shock & amazement!!! Seriously, Nature is AWESOME).

I know your position on ‘sacrificing fry’, & i’m not arguing the point. Thing is, IF possible, i’d like to (try to) rear this lot.

Re infusoria formation, the fluid needs to become CLEAR; does that include ‘tint’? The water the culturing material is in is ‘clear’, but it’s ‘tinted’—relevant?

I’ve done things that i know u likely consider ‘stoopid’, or at least driven by ‘ignorance’.
Having acknowledged that, do u think it would be folly to siphon out some of the fluid, operating on the assumption of ‘some’ infusoria production?

Please advise. TY