🆘 : Bewildering, mysterious behaviour change in Betta—there appears to be a neurological element (Hope ANDY sees this!!!)

[EGGBERT]

These photos aren’t great, but here r the ‘4’ (‘3’ & ‘1’—on different panels of the cube).

& yeah, they all have literally pinprick-sized excrescences that i’m guessing r eggsacs?

 

[EGGBERT]

PS: i know: DON’T FEED when eggsacs r present

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, there r ‘4’ fry in the nursery (to my shock & amazement!!! Seriously, Nature is AWESOME).

WOO HOO!!!!! and YES, she is.

I know your position on ‘sacrificing fry’, & i’m not arguing the point. Thing is, IF possible, i’d like to (try to) rear this lot.

That's only in case of emergency. No reason not to try to raise these fry UNLESS it's to the deficit of the breeders.

Re infusoria formation, the fluid needs to become CLEAR; does that include ‘tint’? The water the culturing material is in is ‘clear’, but it’s ‘tinted’—relevant?

You have a magnifying glass. USE IT!!! If you don't see any infusoria swimming, there's nothing in there to feed. HOWEVER..... keep reading below

I’ve done things that i know u likely consider ‘stoopid’, or at least driven by ‘ignorance’.
Having acknowledged that, do u think it would be folly to siphon out some of the fluid, operating on the assumption of ‘some’ infusoria production?

It would be 100% folly to add any infusoria BEFORE the fry have used up their yolk sacs and are swimming around. Many fry are using this time to finish developing their mouths so all you would be doing is polluting the water which will kill the fry.

Please advise. TY

You have been advised.

 

[Andy Sager]

These photos aren’t great, but here r the ‘4’ (‘3’ & ‘1’—on different panels of the cube).

& yeah, they all have literally pinprick-sized excrescences that i’m guessing r eggsacs?

The pictures aren't clear but it appears to me, based on location that the areas I have red/black arrows pointing at are the yolk sacs and the fry are upside down. ( which is typical).

No need to feed anything until they turn over and are swimming around. USE YOUR MAGNIFYING GLASS if you are not sure of their position. A magnifying glass is a breeder's second most important piece of equipment. ( The fish are #1 )

 

[EGGBERT]

I did some reading on eggsac ingestion/fry development. Sounds like it could take days for the yolk to be absorbed (in some species, WEEKS), & YEAH: development of working mouth parts during that time!!!

Do the infusoria require any special storage—eg, refrigeration?

 

[Andy Sager]

I did some reading on eggsac ingestion/fry development. Sounds like it could take days for the yolk to be absorbed (in some species, WEEKS), & YEAH: development of working mouth parts during that time!!!

Yes it's dependent on water temps. This is why you need to know how long everything takes on your fish specie and your method of creating foods.

Do the infusoria require any special storage—eg, refrigeration?

No they just need food. Storing infusoria is not typically done. It's more a case of making multiple cultures of them so you don't run out.

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy, the fry, remarkably, r pretty lively—swimming around a lot.

Re the infusoria… I’m hoping that i didn’t manage to f-up Let me ‘splain… I followed the guy’s instructions to the letter (they were pretty idjit-proof).

White sediment has formed on top of the container; i also think i may have had too much ‘culturing’ material (lettuce, banana peel), & not enuf fluid. Only a few days-in the water had cleared (as mentioned in earlier post: ‘clear’, not ‘colourless’)—now cloudy again. There IS micro activity—but not how it’s appeared in the vids i’ve watched Hoping it’ll clear again tomorrow

I removed some of the plant matter—so more fluid. Will also startup another batch. Tomorrow marks a full week since i started up the culture.

The bottom of the nursery is coated w/‘schmutz’; one of the fry appears to be rooting around—perhaps finding edible matter?

Opinion, please

 

[EGGBERT]

PS, floor of nursery. As i write this, the same fry referenced above is going wild—‘appears’ to be harvesting edible matter!!!

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, the fry, remarkably, r pretty lively—swimming around a lot.

Re the infusoria… I’m hoping that i didn’t manage to f-up Let me ‘splain… I followed the guy’s instructions to the letter (they were pretty idjit-proof).

White sediment has formed on top of the container; i also think i may have had too much ‘culturing’ material (lettuce, banana peel), & not enuf fluid. Only a few days-in the water had cleared (as mentioned in earlier post: ‘clear’, not ‘colourless’)—now cloudy again. There IS micro activity—but not how it’s appeared in the vids i’ve watched Hoping it’ll clear again tomorrow

I removed some of the plant matter—so more fluid. Will also startup another batch. Tomorrow marks a full week since i started up the culture.

The bottom of the nursery is coated w/‘schmutz’; one of the fry appears to be rooting around—perhaps finding edible matter?

Opinion, please

Can't give you an opinion without seeing what you are seeing. As for the infusoria, if you don't see it in the magnifying glass, I will never be able to see it in a picture or your videos. Color of the water is meaningless. Live activity is all that matters. It was very clear in the video what to look for.
As for the fry, as I said, I've not bred this species but I do know that just moving is not an indication of advancement. Fish fry wiggle from the moment they hatch from the egg. YOU need to see if they are upside down or right side up. If they are right side up, they have probably advanced to the next stage. If they are still upside and moving around, they haven't. There is no in between. Try and post a 1-2 minute video (link) as close up to the fry as possible so I can see hopefully whet you are seeing.

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy, no need to share a vid—last night i observed the thing for hours (w/a magnifying glass & a flashlight). The fry i referenced is an ‘eater’.
Today i was hoping the infusoria culture was good to go (it wasn’t—perhaps when the water clears it’ll have viable produce; in the meantime, i started another batch).

I contacted one of the fish stores i’ve traded at & asked if they had any infusoria for purchase; the guy said no, but offered to press one of their sponge filters for me; i realized i could do the same w/one of my sponge filters—the 2.5gal needed a rinse, so i siphoned a small amt of water from that tank & squeezed (then dipped & squeezed) the sponge directly into that. There IS visible activity; so i squirted some into the nursery w/a small dropper (type used in perfumery).

Please look at the photograph; it’s a pic of the floor of the nursery. It’s sediment that formed following setting it up, & the ‘eater’ was going wild yesterday foraging across the surface.

The lil thing is at it again; logic suggests this is the ‘first born’.

I have a couple of eggs in there that haven’t ‘fuzzed’ over, so they appear viable; if they r, they’ll hatch in a few days/a week.

I haven’t tested water parameters—figured i do that today, but wondering if i should do any water changes. Remember, u advised to refrain from doing any of the usual ‘setup’ stuff: no plants, no dr tim’s, no paraphernalia—just aeration & stable temp (78F).

The aeration unit (2nd pic) seconds as a filtration unit (intended for small betta habitat).

Despite its miniscule size, the ‘eater’ is a livewire—very encouraging to observe!!!

What next, Obi Wan?

 

[EGGBERT]

Hope ur receiving these updates Andy & that u’ll reply when ur able & willing…

There r currently 2 ‘eaters’; at this rate, & continued survival, the other 2 should join the mouthed-set in a few days.

I’m guessing the sediment that formed from the tank water that’s part of the drink they’re in has issued its own infusoria—the wee fishlets r eating something, & they’re at it constantly.

In addition to gaining the ability to ingest, they also appear to have itsy bitsy lateral fins—absolutely adorable!!!

I’ve also added infusoria from the ‘sponge-squeeze’, & i withdrew betw. 8-10oz of water & replaced w/conditioned water.

The things grow w/agonizing slowness, & every day that i continue to find them alive is a gift

 

[Andy Sager]

Hope ur receiving these updates Andy & that u’ll reply when ur able & willing…

There r currently 2 ‘eaters’; at this rate, & continued survival, the other 2 should join the mouthed-set in a few days.

I’m guessing the sediment that formed from the tank water that’s part of the drink they’re in has issued its own infusoria—the wee fishlets r eating something, & they’re at it constantly.

In addition to gaining the ability to ingest, they also appear to have itsy bitsy lateral fins—absolutely adorable!!!

I’ve also added infusoria from the ‘sponge-squeeze’, & i withdrew betw. 8-10oz of water & replaced w/conditioned water.

The things grow w/agonizing slowness, & every day that i continue to find them alive is a gift

I've been without internet since Fri so I'm just now catching up.
Sponge filters can contain their own colonies of infusoria but if the fry eat them faster than they can repopulate, it becomes a problem so this is why you don't depend on them to feed your fry. There is a product called Liquifry for egglayers (vs live bearers) which would be a better food source. Next would be a hard boiled egg yolk squeezed through a hanky or cheesecloth.
Moving forward, this is why you need to know how long it takes to get an infusoria culture going so that you can time it to the fish's development.

Yeah, seeing those little fry eating and developing is always a treat to me. With angelfish fry, they look nothing like their parents until..... then they sprout their fins and they become a whole different fish. LOL If you've ever seen a flounder or a fluke fish, they also start out looking like a " normal" fish until that eye travels around to the other side and they become a " flatfish.

Moving forward, when the eating fry are about a week long feeding, add some rocks that have algae on them. Also at this age, you will need to transfer them to another tank and start feeding them newly hatched brine shrimp. The reason you don't feed them this in the hatching tank with other non feeding fry is that this will start to pollute the water and water changes will be necessary. That's not a good thing for unhatched or newly hatched fry. So this next tank can still be a small one ( under 5 gallons) and once these fry are growing, eating brine shrimp and algae, you can then transfer them to the final growing tank as long as anything in that final tank isn't big enough to eat them.
As for hatching out brine shrimp, there are all kinds of shrimp hatcheries on the market but not a one of them is a necessity, just a convenience. This pic is what all my fry got fed from. The whole setup cost me less than $5.00 because I already had the heaters. It may cost you a bit more because you need a heater, air pump, air stones, non iodized salt, airline tubing and brine shrimp eggs. The glass bowls I used came from a thrift store and cost me 50 cents apiece. They hold 1/2 gallon of water. Because you need to have heated water, using a plastic bottle is not recommended.
So your next step is to start sourcing your Brine Shrimp hatcheries ( you should have at least 2 or 3) and your eggs. You have other sources for eggs in Canada than I have in the U.S. but you want eggs that have the smallest nauplii.

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy, i have a new, very sad development:
I think i need to euthanize Egg—here’s why: he appears to have developed growths around the mouth area (definitely externally, & strong possibility of internally [mouth]).
His blindness is manageable, but he’s experiencing mounting difficulty in grasping or sucking-in his food (pellets or thawed bloodworms)—it’s gotten worse over the past few feedings. It’s painful to watch—the poor guy got dealt a lousy set of cards

A fishkeeping friend who knows a purported fish expert (PhD, breeder/researcher), says he recommends immersing the fish in iced (including ice cubes) water. I know some folks consider this technique cruel—& some folks object to clove oil. What about a triturated Tylenol 3 (codeine)?

Please advise. I don’t know what to do here. U know i’m an animal advocate—want this to be as kind & painless as possible. TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, i have a new, very sad development:
I think i need to euthanize Egg—here’s why: he appears to have developed growths around the mouth area (definitely externally, & strong possibility of internally [mouth]).
His blindness is manageable, but he’s experiencing mounting difficulty in grasping or sucking-in his food (pellets or thawed bloodworms)—it’s gotten worse over the past few feedings. It’s painful to watch—the poor guy got dealt a lousy set of cards

A fishkeeping friend who knows a purported fish expert (PhD, breeder/researcher), says he recommends immersing the fish in iced (including ice cubes) water. I know some folks consider this technique cruel—& some folks object to clove oil. What about a triturated Tylenol 3 (codeine)?

Please advise. I don’t know what to do here. U know i’m an animal advocate—want this to be as kind & painless as possible. TY

Sadly, it wasn't a bad set of cards he was dealt. He was given a bad set of genes. It's a shame what they've done to the Bettas in the hobby. In a zeal for money, they have totally f*cked up the fish and they are just a money grab for the breeders and pharmaceutical companies IMO. I wish there were no crowntails, Dragonscales, or any of the overly enhanced coloring varieties. These are just cruel variations to the genepool to a once splendid fish. ( That's something you can think about before you decide to get another one. )

As for how to euthanize, there are a number of ways which I'm sure you won't be able to do so we're talking clove oil as arguably the most humane. After that would be the freezing. Fish are cold blooded so you ice them down first to sedate them then place them in the freezer to finish the job. You can do it with water or without. Whichever you are more comfortable with. Me personally, I feel the quickest way is the most humane ( as I believe I have previously mentioned. ) I'm also of a mind that I don't care what other people think about which method to use. Once a fish is dead, they will stop being in pain so the quicker the better. You can do your own search for recommended methods and decide which one you can do. I guarantee you the fish won't care.

 

[EGGBERT]

This has topped off a series of deeply unpleasant, painful experiences i’ve had w/bettas—a fish i adore. Our conversations about everything u wrote about above have left an indelible impression on my humble knowledge base & swath of experience.

Having said that, do u perchance know of any sources that produce less egregiously genetically tampered-with bettas? My faves r the plakats. Please advise. TY

 

[Andy Sager]

This has topped off a series of deeply unpleasant, painful experiences i’ve had w/bettas—a fish i adore. Our conversations about everything u wrote about above have left an indelible impression on my humble knowledge base & swath of experience.

Having said that, do u perchance know of any sources that produce less egregiously genetically tampered-with bettas? My faves r the plakats. Please advise. TY

Sadly NO. Today, even the straight veiltails, typically they are more the small percentage of the fancies than didn't pan out. Even they typically get tumors as well. Like I said, they have really f*cked up that fish. So if you want them, you take your chances. The best you can do is find a local breeder to you so you can see the breeders for yourself that they are healthy individuals.

 

[EGGBERT]

Started a search for local breeders—needless to say, slim pickins… There r some aquarist businesses that offer ‘wild-sourced’ species, including Bettas; unsurprisingly, these $cost a bloody fortune, but that’s beside the point…

Re euthanasia—i’ve decided to go the clove oil, then freezing route. After my last note to u i embarked on an errands run—this included 3 stops in quest of clove oil: ‘zip’…
Natural perfumery is one of my lifelong passions—so i rifled thru my collection of essential oils & dug up a bottle of clove oil. Fragrance, very much intact—no rancidity; (some essential oils improve w/age while others have a definitive expiration date.)

Thing is, the bottle i found is likely a couple of decades old—so is it viable for the delicate & unfortunate objective? Please advise.

Re the fry… The 2.5 gal tank still contains some baby ram’s horns & a couple of baby assassins i added to quash them. I’ve transferred sizeable ones (RHs) to the 10gal that houses the sorority & some larger assassins; i could transfer the population in the 2.5 to the 10gal & transfer the ‘mouthed’ fry to the 2.5.
I’ll shoot a couple of pix of the 2.5 so u can tell me if it looks appropriate. The parameters r stable—i do a water change every few days.
What’s your opinion on this?

 

[Andy Sager]

Started a search for local breeders—needless to say, slim pickins… There r some aquarist businesses that offer ‘wild-sourced’ species, including Bettas; unsurprisingly, these $cost a bloody fortune, but that’s beside the point…

Re euthanasia—i’ve decided to go the clove oil, then freezing route. After my last note to u i embarked on an errands run—this included 3 stops in quest of clove oil: ‘zip’…
Natural perfumery is one of my lifelong passions—so i rifled thru my collection of essential oils & dug up a bottle of clove oil. Fragrance, very much intact—no rancidity; (some essential oils improve w/age while others have a definitive expiration date.)

Thing is, the bottle i found is likely a couple of decades old—so is it viable for the delicate & unfortunate objective? Please advise.

I have no idea. I've never used clove oil let alone old clove oil. My rejects or dying fish were fed to other fish or were dispatched in a faster method. Try it on a snail you want to kill. If it doesn't work on the snail, it probably won't work on the fish.

Re the fry… The 2.5 gal tank still contains some baby ram’s horns & a couple of baby assassins i added to quash them. I’ve transferred sizeable ones (RHs) to the 10gal that houses the sorority & some larger assassins; i could transfer the population in the 2.5 to the 10gal & transfer the ‘mouthed’ fry to the 2.5.
I’ll shoot a couple of pix of the 2.5 so u can tell me if it looks appropriate. The parameters r stable—i do a water change every few days.
What’s your opinion on this?

I wouldn't put fry in with assassin snails. Assassins are meat eaters so they could go after the fry. The ramshorns will help keep the tank clean of excess food but you are not there yet so not really appropriate at this point to be in there either.
When breeding fish, you need multiple tanks or there are containers that hang on the tank that can be used to hatch out eggs and get fry eating. The big thing is you don't want to mix different spawns until the fry are past the point where they need very clean water. Try looking for something like this: Fluval Multi-Chamber Hang-On Holding And Breeding Box For Fish Aquariums, Large | Pet Supermarket in your local shop. That can help eliminate the need for multiple small tanks when you only have a few eggs/fry.

 

[EGGBERT]

Ah Andy—i had no intention of adding fry into any environment w/assassins—i know they’re bloodthirsty!!! I do have a brooding unit & have had it in the 20 gal; previously have had no success (all the eggs i transferred there fuzzed over)—however, if at first u don’t succeed… (try try TRY again!!!).

Will rtn w/pix & more progress reporting—having a late dinner…

 

[Andy Sager]

Ah Andy—i had no intention of adding fry into any environment w/assassins—i know they’re bloodthirsty!!! I do have a brooding unit & have had it in the 20 gal; previously have had no success (all the eggs i transferred there fuzzed over)—however, if at first u don’t succeed… (try try TRY again!!!).

Will rtn w/pix & more progress reporting—having a late dinner…

When you write something like this: "Re the fry… The 2.5 gal tank still contains some baby ram’s horns & a couple of baby assassins i added to quash them." I read that as the tank you want to move the bigger fry to has ramshorns and 2 assassins in it. If you intended on moving them out, I don't really need to know that they were in there if they are not going to be there in with the fry. You should be starting with a clean tank. I like empty tanks. Empty tanks are the safest thing for eggs and fry. Can you put other things in with them? Sure. Should you? I don't know any breeders that do. IT MAKES NO SENSE TO. The only thing more important than the fry are the breeders so you don't take chances with either. If you are happy having one or two fry survive to raise your population, keep doing what you are doing. Just keep in mind that the breeders will not breed forever so if you want to have a continual stock of a certain fish, you don't jeopardize the fry or the breeders. You make separate colonies so you are sure to have continuation.