Betta Fish

[EGGBERT]

HEY ANDY!!! U still available for counselling? I’ve got another crisis to contend with—betta related. I’ve been reading quite a bit about the issue at hand as well as various treatments; i have a slew of remedies that i’ll list shortly.

For starters, here’s a stock photo (not my fish) of the concern (white dot on eye):

It appeared yesterday (4 Jul). I’ve had the fish (Egglet) since 24 June. He’s mostly fine: healthy appetite—i’ve already got him trained re the preferred feeding spot.

Did partial water change last night (do at least weekly). He’s in a 5gal w/a horned snail; water parameters r nitrite/ammonia: 0, pH ~ 7.2, nitrate a little >10ppm, tempF: 79

Here’s my arsenal of potential treatments; i’ve been reading about the pros/cons/potential risks, etc; i also read that sometimes these symptoms clear up without meds if one is extremely vigilant about maintaining water quality, etc (which i attempt to do in spades!!!):

- seachem metroplex
- seachem kanaplex
(i also have seachem focus for use in edible preparations)
- API melafix
- API pimafix
- API bettafix (which seems to be a dilute preparation of melafix)

The little guy might also have a bit of fin rot (he moves so fast it’s hard to tell).

I’m tempted to use the bettafix (gentlest & it sounds like many folks find it very effective); kanaplex sounds like it would be a TKO, but there r complications (eg, variable/unpredictable impact on beneficial bacteria load).

Another betta related topic u advised me on, Andy: the use of a gang valve to regulate air stone flow; here’s a photo of the components:

For whatever reason i’m unable to attach a video of the gang valve, so here’s a screenshot (hopefully, it’ll be marginally helpful). Can’t post that either—this site is declaring ‘security’ concerns

First & foremost, please advise re betta treatment. TY

 

[EGGBERT]

Screenshot (since i can’t insert vid)

 

[Andy Sager]

Let's start with this: You can't upload videos directly to this site. You need to upload the video to a site like Youtube or Imgur, etc then post a link to the video here. I'm not really sure what you are asking me relating to the air pump but your check valve needs to be between the valve and the tank, not the valve and the pump. The way you have it, the water will leak out of the valve if the power shuts off.
Regarding the issue with the fish, using a stock photo is not really helpful because there are a few different reasons for a white cap on the eye. The fish in the picture appears to have a cataract which is not treatable. If the spot on your fish is exactly the same as in the picture, all you can do is keep the water clean. But if it's more fuzzy, it needs an antifungal. ( You didn't list any antifungals in your list. ) If it's just a scratch, it may clear up on it's own. So a picture of the actual fish would be more helpful. Try to focus on the area(s) in question.

 

[EGGBERT]

Hel-lo Andy… Sheesh—the site must be really busy today—had composed a substantial reply to your response—incl. pix—but the system swallowed it So here we go again…

Was able to get pic of the eye issue.

Included photos of the ‘check valve’ that i used in setting up the gang valve, so that addresses the potential problem u referenced. Seems to be working!

I did include anti-fungal meds:
- Kanaplex (anti-fungal & antibacterial)
- Pimafix

Since my post was initially expelled, i called a local fish emporium & got advice on how to proceed. The advice (already executed!!!):

- add 1/2 measure Kanaplex to the betta habitat
- repeat for 3 days
- !!!

Also incl. pic of a ‘betta moss ball’—synthetic—purpose: phosphate absorption. Do u think it’s a helpful product or just an over-hyped extra? TY

 

[Andy Sager]

Hel-lo Andy… Sheesh—the site must be really busy today—had composed a substantial reply to your response—incl. pix—but the system swallowed it So here we go again…

Was able to get pic of the eye issue.

Included photos of the ‘check valve’ that i used in setting up the gang valve, so that addresses the potential problem u referenced. Seems to be working!

I did include anti-fungal meds:
- Kanaplex (anti-fungal & antibacterial)
- Pimafix

Since my post was initially expelled, i called a local fish emporium & got advice on how to proceed. The advice (already executed!!!):

- add 1/2 measure Kanaplex to the betta habitat
- repeat for 3 days
- !!!

Also incl. pic of a ‘betta moss ball’—synthetic—purpose: phosphate absorption. Do u think it’s a helpful product or just an over-hyped extra? TY

Hopefully it works but to be honest, I'd be surprised. As for antifungals, all the "fix" products have a poor record of success for severe issues plus Pimafix contains oils that you should not use on fish with labrynth organs. Kanaplex is more an antibiotic than an antifungal. There are better ones to use for fungus but since you started with the Kanaplex, see it through. Unfortunately, cataracts are becoming more common in older Bettas and there really is no treatment for it. ( Your's looks like it falls into this category. )Some of the new fangled varieties even get scales that grow over the eyes making the fish blind. It's unfortunate but this specie has really been through the ringer as per adaptations and deformities.
As for the moss ball, phosphate removal is a good thing but water changes alone can also handle that. ( Just sayin'. )

As for the check valve, there should be an arrow on the valve that shows what the direction of the flow should be. Another way to know if it's right is if the air is blowing through it. If it is, it's right. If it isn't or struggles, it's in backwards. As for location, starting at the air pump, it should be pump to the 2 way valve to the check valve to whatever the air pump is supposed to be blowing through in the tank.

 

[EGGBERT]

Thanks for the input, Andy. The fish is a youngster—perhaps 4mos—& i have to trust the accuracy there: the company that i purchased him from bases their rep on responsible breeding & they only sell young fish.

Fyi: About

I will keep u posted on the efficacy of the remedy. ‘Tick tock’ &

Re ‘gang valve’ & positioning of the ‘check valve’, i paid close attention to the setup—arrow is pointing in required direction—all appears copacetic.

 

[EGGBERT]

PS: attached link to the betta retailer in question; appears as “about”

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks for the input, Andy. The fish is a youngster—perhaps 4mos—& i have to trust the accuracy there: the company that i purchased him from bases their rep on responsible breeding & they only sell young fish.

Fyi: About

I will keep u posted on the efficacy of the remedy. ‘Tick tock’ &

Re ‘gang valve’ & positioning of the ‘check valve’, i paid close attention to the setup—arrow is pointing in required direction—all appears copacetic.

From what I gathered with breeders, many start with cataracts when just a year old. That is still considered a young fish but yet they can get them then. The problem is in their genetics and that goes back over 600 years when the B splenden was bred for fighting. These " fighting fish" were much more aggressive than the usual wild B spenden. So here's the rub, even with the highest of quality breeders: If you are getting a Dragon scale, it's in the genetics no matter who you are, unless you are creating the strain yourself. If you are getting Metallic colored fish, they are prone to " diamond eye" where the scales grow over the eyes AND they are prone to tumors. It's in the genetics from the very first one created. Long finned Bettas such as Dumbos, 1/2 moons, Crowntails and rosetails are prone to develop swimming issues because of the weight of the fins especially if they are placed in living quarters that require them to swim around. It's just a potential side effect for EVERY large finned Betta. So even the best breeders in the world can't overcome some of the genetics that are inside these fish because it's these genetics that make the fish what it is.
In your case, it may be the picture itself but that does not look like a 4 month old fish to me. How large is the fish? Also, there's nobody in their keeping check on a calendar saying that " Okay, you are safe for another 8 months but in 8 months and 1 day, you now become subject to cataracts". Just like there's nobody saying that " time's up, time to start growing tumors." which is another thing now even the most common low end Bettas are getting. ( FYI, that's something I never had to deal with in my hatchery.) Try to find Doubletails where the body is the shape of a regular veiltail. They are very difficult to find now. Mostly what's out there are stubby fish and because of that stubby body, they are having organ issues just like all the balloon fish species. So you see, unless you are getting fish where you know the parents, see the spawn, and watch the fish grow, you won't really know just how old your fish is or just how " high quality" the fish really is. You can only see the outside but it's what's inside that makes the problems. And in another observation, what used to be common in female Bettas was a calmness with subdued coloration but with all the interbreeding and inbreeding for colors, even the female have become more aggressive. So it's IN the fish. You would have to do a Punnett Square stretched out to the Nth degree to see just how much " other stuff" is in these fish today. That's just the way it is. It's actually the lower end, lesser colored fish like the Tans, Peach, oranges & yellows that have the least amount of issues because they have the least amount of inbreeding into them. Even solid reds and solid blues are now prone to problems and they used to be the " gold standard" in their genetics. Not any more.
Hope this helps.

 

[EGGBERT]

From what I gathered with breeders, many start with cataracts when just a year old. That is still considered a young fish but yet they can get them then. The problem is in their genetics and that goes back over 600 years when the B splenden was bred for fighting. These " fighting fish" were much more aggressive than the usual wild B spenden. So here's the rub, even with the highest of quality breeders: If you are getting a Dragon scale, it's in the genetics no matter who you are, unless you are creating the strain yourself. If you are getting Metallic colored fish, they are prone to " diamond eye" where the scales grow over the eyes AND they are prone to tumors. It's in the genetics from the very first one created. Long finned Bettas such as Dumbos, 1/2 moons, Crowntails and rosetails are prone to develop swimming issues because of the weight of the fins especially if they are placed in living quarters that require them to swim around. It's just a potential side effect for EVERY large finned Betta. So even the best breeders in the world can't overcome some of the genetics that are inside these fish because it's these genetics that make the fish what it is.
In your case, it may be the picture itself but that does not look like a 4 month old fish to me. How large is the fish? Also, there's nobody in their keeping check on a calendar saying that " Okay, you are safe for another 8 months but in 8 months and 1 day, you now become subject to cataracts". Just like there's nobody saying that " time's up, time to start growing tumors." which is another thing now even the most common low end Bettas are getting. ( FYI, that's something I never had to deal with in my hatchery.) Try to find Doubletails where the body is the shape of a regular veiltail. They are very difficult to find now. Mostly what's out there are stubby fish and because of that stubby body, they are having organ issues just like all the balloon fish species. So you see, unless you are getting fish where you know the parents, see the spawn, and watch the fish grow, you won't really know just how old your fish is or just how " high quality" the fish really is. You can only see the outside but it's what's inside that makes the problems. And in another observation, what used to be common in female Bettas was a calmness with subdued coloration but with all the interbreeding and inbreeding for colors, even the female have become more aggressive. So it's IN the fish. You would have to do a Punnett Square stretched out to the Nth degree to see just how much " other stuff" is in these fish today. That's just the way it is. It's actually the lower end, lesser colored fish like the Tans, Peach, oranges & yellows that have the least amount of issues because they have the least amount of inbreeding into them. Even solid reds and solid blues are now prone to problems and they used to be the " gold standard" in their genetics. Not any more.
Hope this helps.

Alas, i’m acutely aware of the genetics quandary—so many, too many variables/unknowns

Egglet is ~1.5” from nose to tail; i’ve attached a more flattering & accurate photo—the one attached above is very drab/inaccurate. I’m going to question the vendor further, but i’ve already conversed w/them quite a bit (largely over shipment timing concerns).

Per the description of each & every fish on their website, they’re all 3-4mos old, & since they have a long-term arrangement w/specific breeders, i choose to take them at their word! The fish are born/raised in Indonesia; in this case, shipped to Canada (biz based here); they ship within Canada, & to the US & Puerto Rico.

So, we have to wait to see how the kanaplex treatment plays out; how would You treat the fish?

 

[Andy Sager]

Alas, i’m acutely aware of the genetics quandary—so many, too many variables/unknowns

Egglet is ~1.5” from nose to tail; i’ve attached a more flattering & accurate photo—the one attached above is very drab/inaccurate.

WOW!!! It's definitely the picture then. It looks nice for a fish that small. But like I said, quality is going to be based on shape and coloring but not genetics. ( Especially from the Far East including Indo. ) If they were worried about genetics, they wouldn't still be making the big fins or the metallics or the stubbies or the Crowntails or.....

I’m going to question the vendor further, but i’ve already conversed w/them quite a bit (largely over shipment timing concerns).

Per the description of each & every fish on their website, they’re all 3-4mos old, & since they have a long-term arrangement w/specific breeders, i choose to take them at their word! The fish are born/raised in Indonesia; in this case, shipped to Canada (biz based here); they ship within Canada, & to the US & Puerto Rico.

So, we have to wait to see how the kanaplex treatment plays out; how would You treat the fish?

Unfortunately, it looks more like a cataract than an infection so my course of action would be dependent on the cause. Spots that large don't usually happen overnight but you may have missed it growing? Since there is no pop-eye, it's unlikely the fish injured itself and it's an infection. Based on the picture above, the white looks in the eye and not on the eye so the Kanaplex would be the med of choice if it's an internal infection. Nothing else you mentioned works internally at your pH level. Be prepared to be doing frequent water changes when the treatment course is done or you will need to add some bacteria from either another established tank or a bottle ( I suggest fritzyme #7 ) to help re-establish the biological filter. Other than that, not much else to do past keeping the water clean and nitrates low.

View attachment 392067

 

[EGGBERT]

I’ll keep on keepin on & continue to share results. So sad that so many species r bred primarily for aesthetic appeal more than for health/hardiness. It’s heartbreaking

 

[Andy Sager]

I’ll keep on keepin on & continue to share results. So sad that so many species r bred primarily for aesthetic appeal more than for health/hardiness. It’s heartbreaking

Yes it is. To quote one of my older friends in the business, " It ain't like in the old days."

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy: the white dot is stable, & it does appear to be ever so slightly raised & ‘external’ (vs under the cornea). Was wondering if mebbe he rammed one of the projections on the ‘horned’ snail…?

Egglet’s behaviour is consistent—he seems happy—very food motivated (& no—NOT overfeeding!!!). Today is the 3rd day of medicating (per the fishpert i consulted with: 1/2 dose per 5gal requirement—3 days).

What if the dot remains? If it’s purely cosmetic, i don’t care. I just want to maximize his shot at a decent stretch in my care.

I emailed the merchant to apprise them of the development—how i’ve been handling it, etc.. I also referenced some comments u made re concerns about the breeder prioritizing aesthetics over health—all stated very politely as i want to retain good will w/them, AND, i’m interested in their reaction & how they’d handle such a matter.

We will see… I’ve corresponded w/them a lot & they’ve been helpfully responsive, so hopefully that’ll continue in their reaction to the current quandary…

 

[EGGBERT]

What type of algae is this?

 

[Andy Sager]

Green and slimey. It's appearance usually means too much light AND too much nutrients ( nitrogen and phosphates) together. The algae is not a problem, just unsightly if you don't like it. It IS a sign you need to be doing more to keep the water cleaner.
As for the white dots on the second pic, I have no idea. They don't look like eggs but do look like pieces of pellets that weren't eaten. It could also be phosphate coming out of solution. Your filter should be taking that out in time if it gets stirred up to get into the filter. Have your local shop test your water for phosphate.

 

[EGGBERT]

Thanks Andy. Last did water change in this tank on June 4th; just tested parameters—everything pretty stable: nitrite, ammonia: 0; nitrate: 10ppm; pH 7.6. Should i do a change regardless, or can i wait a couple more days?

Re Egglet, he appears content: attentive, loves his food, BUT, i think he’s ‘special needs’—ie, i think he’s saddled w/some lousy genes & may be at least partially blind

Indeed, he appears to have ‘diamond eye’—both peepers!!! But i don’t love him less for it, & i’ve read that a normal lifespan is not out of the question. They’re smart lil buggers & he’s feeding-trained

Re the phosphate testing—i will acquire a test kit; heck, i have virtually everything else at this point!!!

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks Andy. Last did water change in this tank on June 4th; just tested parameters—everything pretty stable: nitrite, ammonia: 0; nitrate: 10ppm; pH 7.6. Should i do a change regardless, or can i wait a couple more days?

Re Egglet, he appears content: attentive, loves his food, BUT, i think he’s ‘special needs’—ie, i think he’s saddled w/some lousy genes & may be at least partially blind

Indeed, he appears to have ‘diamond eye’—both peepers!!! But i don’t love him less for it, & i’ve read that a normal lifespan is not out of the question. They’re smart lil buggers & he’s feeding-trained

Re the phosphate testing—i will acquire a test kit; heck, i have virtually everything else at this point!!!

You change water for more reasons than just nitrate control. Water changes should be weekly or every 2nd week at the longest imo. " Dilution is the solution to the pollution." You can get phosphate build up from the food you are feeding, the public water system and any organic material breakdown so if you had been doing water changes weekly, you probably wouldn't have the algae present.

As for the genetic makeup of the fish, sadly, that's the way it goes. There's a lot of information out there on the downsides of these " specialized" Betta types but the real clue is that even the most common veiltail Bettas are getting genetic issues ( like tumors) which is a signal that things have gone too far. It's no different than with Angelfish that are now so inbred and interbred that they are no longer the hardy specie they once were. Tie to go back to wild caught fish for healthy stock.

As for the phosphate test, let a shop do it first to confirm you have an increase before investing in a kit of your own if you can. If the result is that you have high numbers of it, weekly water changes should solve that and you should see some decrease in algal growth in time. If it shows low levels or no level of phosphate, you just saved yourself some $$$$

 

[EGGBERT]

OK. U sold me on weekly water changes! Apart from that, at day’s end i siphon out any visible uneaten food!

Re the algae growth, it doesn’t bother me—very little of it is on the tank walls (& i have a ‘remover’)—it’s largely on the plants, & the snails feast on it, so i leave it for them. I was wondering about the different types; i researched the topic, but was more interested in your experience/opinion!!!

Very sad how indiscriminate breeding has ruined certain species

 

[Andy Sager]

OK. U sold me on weekly water changes! Apart from that, at day’s end i siphon out any visible uneaten food!

Re the algae growth, it doesn’t bother me—very little of it is on the tank walls (& i have a ‘remover’)—it’s largely on the plants, & the snails feast on it, so i leave it for them. I was wondering about the different types; i researched the topic, but was more interested in your experience/opinion!!!

Very sad how indiscriminate breeding has ruined certain species

I never really studied algae past " If it's green, too much light. If it's brown, not enough light." LOL In some cases, it's actually a pretty addition to a tank's ambiance in my eyes while others treat it with distain. As a fish collector, I saw natural habitats and believe me, they are far from the sterile looking aquariums we keep at home so algae in a tank doesn't bother me at all. You just don't want to be growing "blue/green algae" because it's toxic to fish. On a personal level, I've not really had algae issues other than regular biofilm because I've been changing water religiously since the very beginning because my Mentor told me that was how to keep fish correctly. He was THE professional so I listened and followed. Turned out, he was right IN fact, in my saltwater tanks, I aggressively tried growing algae in the tanks so the fish had natural foods to feed on all day long. In marine systems, algae play an important part of the life circle because it gives the fish vitamins not usually present in man-made foods. So many species live on it so there must be something to it.

As for " Very sad how indiscriminate breeding has ruined certain species", Yes it is. For some of us old timers, it's sickening.

 

[EGGBERT]

Andy—uh oh: i DO have blue green algae!!!
At least that’s how it appears to me!!!
I can manually remove it. What makes it dangerous? & is what i’ve photographed here in fact the type ur referencing?