Betta sick - amm spike, need help ASAP

[BlueVelvet]

Hi,

I’m new to this forum and would like to say Hi but also I need help. My betta fish Royalty is just sitting at the bottom of the tank. It’s a 10 gallon tank with live plants and gravel and he’s the only fish in the tank. I have a foam, carbon, ammonia and bio filter for media and it’s a hang on back filter.

At first I thought it was swim bladder and that maybe I fed him too much, but I realized when I tested my water I was having an ammonia Spike. I got bad fish advice since I’m new to the hobby in the last year that I could just rinse my carbon filter out and I would be fine instead of changing every month. Well clearly, that has now affected my fish and I’ll never do that again. I will change it once a month.

Once I discovered the water issue, I’ve added a new carbon & ammonia filter (except I rinsed them out on tap water ����*) and have done 20-30% water changes w/ Prime last 3 days

I know it takes a bit to get things back but should I be medicating him too or just doing daily water changes? I don’t want to do too much since hes already having a hard time but he does have some red streaks on the bottom of his white. Any help is appreciated as I’m not sure what else to do and I feel horrible he’s not able to move, just sitting at the bottom like that.

Thank you,
Blue

 

[Aiken Drum]

Im going to start off by saying that the levels of ammonia you are seeing in your test are practically zero and of no risk to your fish. Your ammonia might even be zero as a zero test result often has a slight green tinge and can look like a 0.25ppm result. Test some bottled water which you know is zero ammonia, if the results look the same you have zero ammonia.

Unless your ammonia has historically been much higher than what your test shows now, then look for another cause.

Moving onto your filter media.

You have 3 types of filter media. Mechanical, biological and chemical. Mechanical media is your sponge and this removes detritus from the water. Biological media is your ceramic rings, and sponge also provides biological filtration. Biological filtration is what consumes ammonia converting it into nitrate.

Then we have chemical media which has very specific uses and most of the time isnt needed and provides no useful function.

Carbon removes organic compounds. This usually means tannins released from driftwood, medication after a course of treatment, and phenols which cause smells. Tannins eventually leech out, medication is a short term thing, and if you keep up with water changes your tank shouldnt smell. Unless you are dealing with any of these things carbon is doing nothing useful. Change your carbon, leave old carbon in the tank, take it out altogether, it will probably make no difference to whats going on in your tank and rinsing off your carbon cartridge won't have caused an ammonia spike. Carbon does only last a couple of weeks, and to function it needs to be replaced, but you can probably save some money and just remove it.

Your ammonia filter is probably something like zeolite. This will chemically remove ammonia. The nitrogen cycle needs ammonia to grow bacteria and cycle your tank. Your ammonia filter is preventing this from happening and your zero nitrate is a sign this is happening. Your cycle turns ammonia into nitrate, so a cycled tank should have nitrate in the water. With zeolite in the filter you are forever relying on it to remove ammonia as your cycle cant establish and do this. Like carbon, zeolite only lasts so long. Once its used up it stops working and needs replacing. This is far more likely where your ammonia is coming from.

Remove the ammonia filter and cycle the tank. Monitor water quality, if you see ammonia + nitrite combined above 0.5ppm change water to bring it down. When you consistently see zero ammonia and nitrite you are cycled.

Keep the water in good quality with plenty of water changes, raise the water temperature to 78/80f (25/26c) and keep any lighting low. Add aquarium salt to the water. Half teaspoon for every 1 gallon/4 litres of water.

Don’t feed the fish for 3 days.

If you don’t see improvement try feeding your fish cooked peas. Boil or microwave a frozen pea for a few seconds so the consistency is not too soft or too hard. Remove the shell. Your fish may or may not eat the pea.

When you return to feeding your fish avoid any food that floats.

If that doesn’t improve things move onto broad spectrum anti-biotic medication. The effectiveness of over the counter medication will vary depending on your country and whether anti-biotic medication needs vet prescription or not.

 

[Colin_T]

Hi and welcome to the forum

Aiken covered most of it. I would avoid adding any medication until we can work out what is wrong with the fish. Medications put the fish under stress and if you use the wrong medication, it does nothing to help but will increase the risk of drug resistant diseases.

If you can post a couple of pictures of the fish (one from each side) that clearly show the issue, then we will have more to go on. In the mean time, do a big water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week and see if it helps.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

With the filter, remove the ammonia part and let it run for 6 weeks before cleaning it. If it clogs up and the flow slows down you can clean it but try to wait 6 weeks. Then wash/ squeeze the filter media/ materials in a bucket of tank water and re-use the media. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the lawn. After that you should clean the filter once a month in the same way.

The only time you replace filter media is if it starts to break down (fall apart). You can normally add sponge from other brands of filter to replace the filter pads/ cartridges. Just find one that is slightly bigger than what you have and use a pair of scissors to cut it to fit. Sponges last for years and get cleaned in a bucket of tank water like other filter media does.

 

[BlueVelvet]

Still at bottom

Thank you very much for your reply. I had no idea the ammonia filter would possibly upset the balance so much.
I just took it out of the filter.

-I did a partial water change yesterday 25%
added 1/2 cap of Seachems Stability bc I didn’t know why my levels were getting worse
-Another water change today about 40% w/Prime but no Stability
(Note: I’m only doing water vacuuming, no substrate)

Yesterday I saw him swim up to the surface, grab air and sink down again

I’m posting pictures of my current ammonia/nitrates
They’re getting worse but I just took that ammonia filter out a few minutes ago.
Should I still add salt?

This is what my betta looks like now.
He’s still sitting at the bottom with clamped fins but his skin is looking a bit better under his chin. He doesn’t have popeye, but he has ammonia burn around his eyes a little. He’s moving a bit more then the other day but still lethargic. He readily eats peas so I’ll try to give him a piece of one in a bit.
I haven’t fed him for 3 days. I tried today but he’s not interested.

I’m very appreciative of your advice bc it was stumping me as to why my levels weren’t getting better with water changes, but worse. So let’s see what taking out the ammonia filter will do.

 

[BlueVelvet]

More pictures from today
Bc his gills are breathing heavy it looks like he has dropsy but I don’t think it is. However I’ll keep an eye on it. It’s hard to get clear pictures bc he’s at the back of the tank and the light keeps reflecting off the glass

Fed him part of a pea. He tried going for it, couldn’t move much and managed to take one bite, that was it. He’s trying to swim to me, like he does every day. You can see in the pictures where he’s looking up at me, he kept doing that, I just wanted to hug him. I know it sounds funny but he had this expression. If you see something I’m not aware of, please let me know.

Again, very appreciative of the advice.

 

[Colin_T]

Can't tell much from the pictures, too blurry.

The ammonia and nitrite levels will probably go up during the next month. This is normal while the filter develops the beneficial bacteria that eats it. Once the bacteria has developed, the levels will drop to 0ppm and should stay there.

The ammonia/ ammonium (NH3/ NH4) and nitrate (NO3) levels aren't that high. Just keep doing water changes to keep the levels down. If you want to dilute things in the aquarium quickly, do bigger (50-75%) water changes.

Is there a nitrite (NO2) reading?

If you can gravel clean the substrate when you do a water change, it will remove any uneaten food and waste from the substrate and this will help reduce the ammonia.

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You can normally buy live brineshrimp from most pet shops. You could try offering him a few of them and see if he eats. You get a few in a bag so put them in a bowl (in the water they come in) and keep them in the fridge, then scoop a few out and add them to his tank.

 

[BlueVelvet]

Skin and color worse

Here are better pics (hopefully)
I put 1 Tb salt in
Should I do another water change today?
I did one 9 hours ago

His color looks faded and still red on his tail
Do I continue to do daily water changes until he’s better? Or only until tests register at 0 ppm?

 

[Colin_T]

Just do one water change per day.

Do water changes any day you have an ammonia or nitrite reading above 0ppm, or a nitrate reading above 20ppm. Once the ammonia and nitrite levels are 0ppm, you do a water change once a week or more often if you get an ammonia or nitrite reading again.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

I can't see any red on his tail but you are looking at the fish so you will have a better idea of how much red there is.

I would just keep doing water changes and monitor him.

 

[BlueVelvet]

Popeye

He has popeye.

Ammonia is around .10 ppm
Nitrates 5 ppm

This is a video I took today of my fish. If you pause and blow up the video, you can see the popeye, plus he has a touch of fin rot. And he Durant live much from the bottom last 5 days.

Do you think I should start a course of Kanamycin?

 

[Colin_T]

I can't see much on the video, my web browser wouldn't let me expand it or do much except watch it.

I can't see fin rot. If there is fin rot, it's normally caused by poor water quality and big daily water changes will clear it up. You can add some salt (sodium chloride) to the tank to help with minor bacterial, fungal and protozoan infections.

I can't see pop eye on the fish. This is usually caused by damage to the eye, which allows bacteria into the damaged tissue. Again clean water and salt usually does the job.

The fish is breathing very heavily and that could be from something in the water or the fish has an internal injury/ damaged organ and is dying.

I'm not a fan of antibiotics unless there is a known bacterial infection that hasn't responded to more common forms of treatment. Improper use and mis-use of antibiotics has lead to drug resistant bacteria that kill people, birds, reptiles, fish and animals all around the world.

You could try salt (1-2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres/ 5 gallons of tank water) or a liquid broad spectrum fish medication, but if the fish hasn't eaten in 5 days and the water is good, and it's getting worse, chances are it's too late to do anything.

 

[BlueVelvet]

Tried to eat

He tried to eat yesterday and grabbed 1 pellet only bc he couldn’t move for the others. Today I saw him move himself to get at a piece of food from yesterday and he ate it. So he’s been trying to eat. But I just tried to feed him now and he’s not interested at all.

I hear you in the anti biotics in general. Clearly his symptoms are bad enough to warrant medication but I’m not sure what is best.

I have Kanaplex, Sulfaplex and Melafix. I did put salt in yesterday 1.5 tablespoons into a 10 gallon

I have meds if he needs them. Even though I’m not a fan, if it’ll save him, that’s what it’s there for. And he’s getting bad. You’d still not give meds at this stage?

 

[Colin_T]

If your using salt, you need a higher dose rate. Use 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres (5 gallons) of water.

Melafix won't do anything expect possibly put a layer of oil over his gills and make it more difficult for him to breath.

Sulfaplex is a sulfa based antibiotic

Kanaplex is kanamycin, another antibiotic.

I'm reluctant to say use either antibiotic because we don't know what is causing the problem. If it is water quality related then antibiotics aren't going to help. If I had to use an antibiotic, I would probably go for the sulfaplex but I would probably just euthanise the fish and not use either medication.

 

[BlueVelvet]

At what point....

At what point do I euthanize?

I haven’t used Melafix at all, only Prime during water changes, Stability a few hours later and salt yesterday. Just the 1 1/2 Tablespoons of salt.
Should I put in another 1/2 teaspoon now? Bc it should’ve been a 2 Tablespoon dose, I just didn’t want to overdose the tank

Do I do a partial water change again today?
How many days of water changes until you realize it’s something bacterial? Etc

Keep in mind after 4 decent water changes, he seems to be more lethargic. Unless they usually are more at night anyway.

I appreciate your quick replies. I’ve been up all night about this. I really love this Betta.

Ps it’s not fin rot, it’s septicemia the red streaks
I’m assuming even ammonia burn causes that

 

[Colin_T]

You can normally tell if there is an external bacterial infection by the tissue being eaten away on the body or fins (it shows up as red patches and ragged fins). Internal bacterial infections are harder to identify but the most common symptoms include the fish bloating up overnight, stringy white poop, they stop eating and usually die within 24-48 hours of showing those symptoms.

Ammonia burns usually show up as black patches over parts of the body. Black is the dead tissue, a bit like bruising on people.

Septicemia usually kills them pretty quickly, within a few days.

Bettas do come in a red colour form and it might have some red colour in its genetic make up.

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Water changes normally help if it's a water quality issue. Sometimes the water changes make things worse and this is usually caused by chloramine in the water and people only treating for chlorine, not chloramine. Most water conditioners use a double dose for chloramine. I'm not sure what your tap water is being treated with but maybe call or check your water company's website and see if they use chlorine or chloramine to treat the tap water. If your not sure, treat the water for chloramine until you find out.

The other time water changes make things worse is when the fish are new and they came from water that is quite different to the tank/ tap water. then they die for no apparent reason and the best thing to do then is no water changes for 2 weeks. Followed by small 10% water changes every few days. But Bettas don't normally fall into that category and ammonia will kill fish quickly too, so that has to be dealt with first.

I wouldn't do a water change today if there's no ammonia or nitrite or only a slight trace of either.

Don't bother adding any more salt either.

 

[BlueVelvet]

I didn’t add more salt but did a 10% water change today and added Stability again

Ammonia - .25 ppm
Nitrates - 0 ppm
Ph - 7.6+

He ate 2 pellets today and moved around more, but still on the bottom of tank. I thought he had Ich on him but it’s only on one side and nowhere else on the tank I can see, so I’m assuming it’s off coloring from the ammonia. He’s still breathing a bit heavy.

I know he looks like he passed away in the pics but it’s just how he’s sitting pushed into the bottom. He’s moved from this area on the bottom since I took these to my surprise to a different area of the tank.

 

[Colin_T]

In the third picture from your last post, it looks like he is covered in excess mucous. This is normally caused by something in the water irritating the fish.

Do you have a nitrite (NO2) test kit or can you get the water tested for nitrite?
If you do get it tested, write the results down in numbers and post them here.

Do you have a carbon filter in the tank?
It could be chemical or heavy metal poisoning in addition to or instead of ammonia and nitrite problems. If you don't have a carbon filter in the filter, perhaps add one and see if it helps.

 

[BlueVelvet]

I’m wondering if the mucus came from the aquarium salt treatment? I put salt in the tank twice but there were 3 large water changes in between those doses. I will not be adding more.

Filter: I have a Fluval hang on back filter with foam, carbon, ammonia and bio filter.

My biofilter needs to be replaced, but I just put in new carbon and ammonia a week ago. So I got a new biofilter yesterday and put it in with the old one so that at least there’s some new bacteria.

After 7 days of water changes, using Prime each time and Stability the last 2 days, plus salt treatment, not feeding him for 3 days, feeding him a part of a pea, he’s still hanging out on bottom and can’t swim. Plus the popeye is concerning me at this stage. He’s hanging upside down sleeping but it’s in a way that looks wedged in.

So I gave him a dose of Kanaplex tonight and took the carbon out (I know). I’ll be monitoring the water parameters but I feel I did everything and waited a week doing everything by the book. In 2 days when the 1st treatment is done, I’ll do a partial water change again.

I’m torn whether it was the right thing to do but I know he can’t go on much longer the way he is with the fluid build up.

 

[Colin_T]

You don't want ammonia removing granules (Zeolite) in the filter because it stops the beneficial filter bacteria from growing and when the Zeolite is full, it stops removing ammonia and then you get a build up of ammonia in the water.

You don't have to replace biowheels either unless they are falling apart.

If you use carbon, that should be replaced at least once a month but every week is better. However, I don't normally recommend carbon in filters unless you are trying to remove heavy metals or chemicals from the water. Then it's cheaper to buy a big bag of Activated carbon and make up a filter for the tap water. Or put some tap water in a holding container, dechlorinate it, then filter it through carbon for a few days before using it in the tank.

You can buy cylindrical shaped sponges that have a hole through the centre. They are normally used for some brands of internal power filter but can go over the intake strainer on external power filters. They act a s a screen to stop course material getting sucked into the filter and to stop sick fish being drawn in.

You can buy sponges for different brands of filter and a pair of scissors to cut them to fit your filter. Sponges last for years and get squeezed out in a bucket of tank water. the sponge gets re-used while the bucket of dirty water goes on the lawn.

 

[BlueVelvet]

The ammonia filter is what I find confusing because some people I speak to say you want it in there. You want it to absorb the ammonia if you’ve got a problem with rising ammonia levels. And then there’s some people who I speak to, such as yourself, that tell me that it will remove bacteria even though I need the ammonia to be removed right now as well. It’s definitely a catch 22. This whole situation has been a catch 22 because it’s trying to fix one issue and then target the next.

Update after 1st dose of Kanoplex:
The eye is definitely better overnight. He’s moved positions, which I didn’t expect. He’s still on the bottom however and is showing signs of needing more oxygen so I turned the filter flow up a bit bc it was on the lowest setting. I think I need an air pump or something but I’m hesitant bc bettas don’t like heavy flow.

I added a half cap Stability this morning as well.
I can’t currently get a good picture of him, as he’s curled up at the side end of the tank. His breathing isn’t as heavy, but, his gills are still larger then normal.

These are my ammonia and nitrate levels today. The ammonia is better then yesterday by a touch.

 

[Aiken Drum]

You need sufficient bacteria to consume all the ammonia your tank produces. The only way to get enough of this bacteria is to grow it in your filter. The only way to grow this bacteria is to continually feed it an ammonia source until the bacteria is sufficient to cycle out this continuous ammonia source.

Your ammonia filter will absorb ammonia, removing the food source for the bacteria you need to grow, preventing this bacteria from growing, and preventing your tank from cycling.

You could rely 100% on ammonia absorbing filter media, but this media has limited capacity, and when it gets full ammonia will build up to toxic levels. You are then forever reliant on this ammonia absorbing media as you arent cycled. If you fail to replace the media on time, result dead and dying fish.

In the long run its far better to cycle the tank. You will have less issues going forward if the tank is cycled. In the short term you can control ammonia with more frequent water changes.

Ammonia removing media is pushed by manufacturers because it makes them money. It isnt needed if you manage your tank properly. Like a lot of the products available in the hobby, they solve problems that either dont exist or can more easily be resolved just by proper management.

FWIW you have not had an ammonia issue. None of the ammonia levels you have posted are anywhere near toxic levels. I really think you need to get away from thinking your issues are down to ammonia. Nothing you have posted suggests that.