Calcium DEBATE!!

[revhtree]

I tested my Calcium last night and it was at 360. Is that good or should it be higher?

My last water change was 10g about 4 days ago.

My corals list:
Toadstool Leather (large)
Pulsating Xenia
Purple Gorgonia
Button Poylps
Yellow Star Polyps
2 Finger Leather
2 other poylp colonies
branching hammer
mushrooms
cabage leather
zoos

 

[revhtree]

Bump

 

[phases99]

360 CA is on the low end of 350-450 but fine. What is your ALK? should be 8-12 dkh. If you in that range you are good to go.

 

[Bang Guy]

360 is marginal. Nothing is going to die but nothing is going to grow well either.

I agree about the ALK level. It's more important.

If your ALK is OK (3.0Meq/L+) I'd suggest using Calcium chloride over the next week to bump up your Ca level to at least 400ppm.

 

[revhtree]

Ok thanks I'll check.

 

[phases99]

Calcium chloride is fine for a short term solution to raise your CA level. Some folks get themselves into trouble by shooting for abnormally high CA levels. My corals are happy and growing well and I keep my calcium in the 360-380 range. ALK is stable at 10 dkh.

 

[Bang Guy]

To each his own. I prefer balanced levels of Ca & ALK, and at least the level of NSW.

If something works though there's no reason to change.

 

[mojoreef]

Your Calcium level is tied to your Salinity level, Let us know that and we can tell you what the level should be


Mike

 

[Bang Guy]

Your Calcium level is tied to your Salinity level, Let us know that and we can tell you what the level should be

That's a joke, right?

 

[seaham358]

Is that new information???
I run mine 400-450 it hits 500 when I do a water change. Alk around 10.
If you need to raise it up do it gradually

 

[mojoreef]

That's a joke, right

Hmm no. Actually its the basis for it?? Your salinity is the sum of all the elements with in it. So if you run your tank at 35ppt then you have a combined element total of 35000 parts. If you lower the salinity then the total amount of parts go down. Here is how it effects your calcium level

the proper calcium level for a tank that runs a salinity level of 1.027 is 412
the proper calcium level for a tank that runs a salinity level of 1.023 is 354

Both these numbers are perfect for NSW or your tank, so as you can see it makes a big difference. If you run you salinity at 1.023 but have a calcium level of say 450 it would mean that your over by a hundred points, and since thier is only 35K of point in the tank you are driving some other element of SW out of your tank. Not only that but in running a 100 points higher you are stressing out your corals, as calcium is poiseness to them.


Mike


Mike

 

[acid_burn]

Hmm no. Actually its the basis for it?? Your salinity is the sum of all the elements with in it. So if you run your tank at 35ppt then you have a combined element total of 35000 parts. If you lower the salinity then the total amount of parts go down. Here is how it effects your calcium level

the proper calcium level for a tank that runs a salinity level of 1.027 is 412
the proper calcium level for a tank that runs a salinity level of 1.023 is 354

Both these numbers are perfect for NSW or your tank, so as you can see it makes a big difference. If you run you salinity at 1.023 but have a calcium level of say 450 it would mean that your over by a hundred points, and since thier is only 35K of point in the tank you are driving some other element of SW out of your tank. Not only that but in running a 100 points higher you are stressing out your corals, as calcium is poiseness to them.


Mike


Mike

If thats the case why does everybody recommend such a higher Ca. level than what you say?

Also some sea salts measure Ca. levels of 400ppm right out of the bag...is that too high??

I'm a bit confused on that one because when I had a Ca. level of 350ppm I was being told to raise it or my corals would not grow right.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[mojoreef]

If thats the case why does everybody recommend such a higher Ca. level than what you say?

The calcium levels that I have quoted are what they are in NSW, Why someone would recommend higher then natural would be a question for them my friend. In order for a coral to divide its cells and multiply it must drive the calcium out of the cell itself. The calcium is pushed to the outer wall of the cell where carbonate draws it out and plant it onto a seed surface (in the case of a coral it is the skeliton). Running high or saturated levels of calcium the person is making the coral work that much harder to complete the removal. What happens is that the coral grows faster because the skeliton is added more to but its not healthy for the coral. Again thier is a safety zone, but if you run a really high calcium level you are endangering the coral.

Also some sea salts measure Ca. levels of 400ppm right out of the bag...is that too high??

Again it depends on the level of salinity. If you run your salinity at 1.025, 400 would be pretty much dead on.

not sure if I cleared that up, let me know


Mike

 

[acid_burn]

not sure if I cleared that up, let me know

Somewhat, for instance...I run my tank at a SG of 1.024 and Ca. is between 450-480ppm. Am I in the safety zone? So what i'm doing is speeding up the corals growth but actually at the same time giving it a somewhat toxic environment??

Thanks,
Rich

 

[mojoreef]

At 1.024 salinity what would be considered normal level of calcium (balanced) would be around 370. So I would say you are to high, the top end of the normal zone for calcium at 1.024 would be around 400. Its not that you are making the water toxic, its that you are making the coral work that much harder. The more energy it has to spend on this the less it has to spend on all the other things it needs to do. What usually happens to folks that run their calcium so high is that the tissue being formed is a lot thinner then it should be, also with the coral working so hard if an event comes along the coral will have a lot less energy to deal with it as it is riding the line more.


Mike

 

[acid_burn]

Gotcha, so it would be in the coral and my best interest to slowly lower my Ca. down to 380-400ppm?

I am doing a water change tomorrow or Tuesday, what would you recommend my Ca. level in my change water be? If my tank water is at 480ppm right now.

Also what is the formula to get the balanced SG and Ca.?

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Bang Guy]

At 1.024 salinity what would be considered normal level of calcium (balanced) would be around 370.

Sorry Mike you lost a lot of credibility there.

A Salinity of 1.024 is basically fresh water so I can only assume you mean Specific Gravity (which is only loosely coupled to Salinity).

Keeping a reef at a Salinity lower than 35ppt is just counterproductive so why bother discussing it? The balance between Carbonate and Calcium is much much more important.

I agree that for the typical hobbiest, keeping Calcium higher than NSW is risky but they do grow faster.

So, just my opinion, but balancing Calcium with Salinity is total hogwash.

Advising Acid_Burn to lower Calcium below 410 is irresponsible IMO. The better question would be "What's you ALK?"

 

[mojoreef]

I wouldnt worry about having to lower the cal level with WC's. the calcium will be naturally reduced by the corals and such in your tank. So let them reduce it and then try to maintain a level close to 400.

Also what is the formula to get the balanced SG and Ca.?

Its not so much that calcium is in balance with the salinity as it what is the natural level of calcium at any particular level of salinity.
Here are the proper levels
At a SG of 1.027 your calcium should be 415
At a SG of 1.026 your calcium should be 400
At a SG of 1.025 your calcium should be 386
At a SG of 1.024 your calcium should be 367
At a Sg of 1.023 your calcium should be 357

Now remember your alkalinity should be balanced with the above numbers, its really easy to figure out. the difference between 1.027 and 1.026 is 3.5% so all the elements that make up the total salt should be 3.5 % lower and for each point you go down you have to drop it another 3.5%. So apply that to alkalinity and magnesium to.


hope it helps


Mike

 

[mojoreef]

A Salinity of 1.024 is basically fresh water so I can only assume you mean Specific Gravity

Sorry excuse me I meant specific gravity.

Keeping a reef at a Salinity lower than 35ppt is just counterproductive so why bother discussing it? The balance between Carbonate and Calcium is much much more important.

As I have mentioned prior salinity is the basis that you start from. running below 35ppt is not counter productive, Reefs in the wild can be found anywhere between 1.023 and 1.027 so what are you talking about?? If he is running his calcium at 410 at a salinity of 1.024 that would be the equivilant to 470 at 35ppt, you think that is a better level??

I agree that for the typical hobbiest, keeping Calcium higher than NSW is risky but they do grow faster

Well if risking your corals is what you want to do all the power to ya. I think its better for the individual to know both sides of the story, that way they dont have to learn the hard way.

So, just my opinion, but balancing Calcium with Salinity is total hogwash.

Again I never said balancing I said it gives you the starting point, and the figures for all elements in a balanced manner per the Salinity of your tank.

Advising Acid_Burn to lower Calcium below 410 is irresponsible IMO. The better question would be "What's you ALK?"

thats ridiculas, you have to have a starting point. Your alk and cal could be balanced but the only way to know is to know where the starting point is and how it relates to the balance of other elements in your tank.
example If you run at 1.024 and have a calcium of 450 and alk of 11 in your terms he would be fine, balanced and set him on his way. But in reality both his alk and cal would be at the point of saturation, and his mag would almost be depressed...Now which is irresponsible??


Mike

 

[Bang Guy]

Mike,

You don't even know what Acid_burns Salinity lavel is. He hasn't given you enough information to derive it.

Reefs in the wild range from a Specific Gravity of 1.023 up to 1.034 so the rang you specified is a bit restrictive.

However, you keep ignoring Salinity for some bizzare reason. Salinity of wild reefs never ever average lower than 35ppt.