Can anyone identify these angelfish?
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Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
You can't tell a Pinoy from the outside because "Pinoy" means it contains two Philippine Blue genes and at least one dark gene. So technically they are mutts because of this. They are too young ( from the pic) to know for sure if they are Pinoy Smokeys or whatever but they look like potential Smokeys. The blue coloring from the Blue genes doesn't usually come out until the fish matures so you won't see it in juvenile fish. It's unlikely they are Zebras but they could be because a good Zebra is a mix of Zebra and Black. If the Black is more dominant, the fish will be darker rather than striped.
I'll add that if the breeder doesn't know what they sold you or what the store they sold them to who sold them to you, they are probably mutts. I'd want papers ( Like AKC papers for dogs. LOL ) before I sold any of them as a particular line.
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lol. The breeder is a weird kid. A double dose, DD, Pinoy wouldn’t display any blue, the ones I have seen are pitch dark. I’ve seen no signs of blue in these fish, yet they are not entirely dark like a DD Pinoy would be. But yes, probably mixes/mutts. And they are very young.
Thanks, Andy!
Thanks, Andy!
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
Like I said, you can't see the genes that are inside. What makes a Pinoy is on the inside, not the outside.
This is a pic from another post 
of a DD pinoy. As you can see there is some blue showing. That's the double blue gene coming through. That's also an older fish. So your fish have a ways to go before you can say that no blue will show through. Andy, I have seen many adult DD Pinoys that are jet black without any blue shining through. Let me see if I can find a screenshot of an explanation from a Pinoy expert. He has a Facebook group all about the them and Philippine blues. But I would be delighted. Should any blue appear as these fish mature. Well, I guess it’s on my other iPad.
He said these fish and neither Pinoy or zebra, probably some kind of mix.
He said these fish and neither Pinoy or zebra, probably some kind of mix.
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
The point is that you may not see the blue as juvies but can as adults. It's that blue gene in them that makes that possible. Personally, I'm not a fan of any of the " Philippine Blue" Angels. To me they are just another color form of scalare. I'm not sure how your expert knew the fish in question was not a Pinoy unless they did some DNA analysis or knew it's genetic makeup from the breeder fish. Considering that today there are so many mixed phenotypes inside one fish, I wouldn't put money on identifying a fish just by color or pattern anymore. The only " pure" angelfish are wild fish and as I said before, there is doubt that even that is true anymore in some areas.
Lastly, if you bred a true Pinoy with a non Pinoy, that double blue gene would be inside some of whatever was produced by that pairing wouldn't it?
My Pinoy expert pulled 5 sacred crystal balls out of his butt and later read tea leaves. Then he consulted with some elves in the forest. How could he be wrong?
Of course, the Philippine blues are just another variation of P. scalare.
Whoever said anything else? They are truly beautiful fish. But I have a few that I think were crossed with the great white shark. I can send a few to you and you guys can play in the swimming pool. I would Advise that you wear tight fitting Speedos.
Of course, the Philippine blues are just another variation of P. scalare.
Whoever said anything else? They are truly beautiful fish. But I have a few that I think were crossed with the great white shark. I can send a few to you and you guys can play in the swimming pool. I would Advise that you wear tight fitting Speedos.
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
Then I’ll have to think of another aquatic Christmas gift for you.
I had the saddest Angelfish experience ever the other day. I purchased two very pricey adult Veil Pinoys from a breeder down south. South of me that is, not of you. After photographing one , I needed to move it to a big tank while I photographed the other. The second fish became very agitated when the net was inserted into the tank. Now I had netted this fish twice before and had my hand in and out of the tank rearranging plants. It was docile and practically swam into the net.
So this extreme agitation upon insertion of the net was quite surprising. I returned less than a minute after moving the one and the other was attempting to jump out of the water. I have not completely closed the lid after netting the other fish. I did and the fish disappeared behind the dense plants at the rear of the tank. This was not really surprising. However, upon closer inspection, the fish was dead. Prior to this point it appeared to be in excellent health and ate well that morning. This was a very large rather expensive Angelfish, in fact, the biggest and most pricey one I owned. So it all came as a terrible shock and disappointment to me.
I contacted the breeder who said that for whatever reason the net freaked the fish out and it banged its head against the glass and killed itself. He said this is very rare, but he has witnessed it a few times. I suppose nothing else makes sense. Until the insertion of the net when he became highly agitated, this fish was in excellent condition and behaved as would any other fish. What do you think Andy? Isn’t this as weird as hell?
I had the saddest Angelfish experience ever the other day. I purchased two very pricey adult Veil Pinoys from a breeder down south. South of me that is, not of you. After photographing one , I needed to move it to a big tank while I photographed the other. The second fish became very agitated when the net was inserted into the tank. Now I had netted this fish twice before and had my hand in and out of the tank rearranging plants. It was docile and practically swam into the net.
So this extreme agitation upon insertion of the net was quite surprising. I returned less than a minute after moving the one and the other was attempting to jump out of the water. I have not completely closed the lid after netting the other fish. I did and the fish disappeared behind the dense plants at the rear of the tank. This was not really surprising. However, upon closer inspection, the fish was dead. Prior to this point it appeared to be in excellent health and ate well that morning. This was a very large rather expensive Angelfish, in fact, the biggest and most pricey one I owned. So it all came as a terrible shock and disappointment to me.
I contacted the breeder who said that for whatever reason the net freaked the fish out and it banged its head against the glass and killed itself. He said this is very rare, but he has witnessed it a few times. I suppose nothing else makes sense. Until the insertion of the net when he became highly agitated, this fish was in excellent condition and behaved as would any other fish. What do you think Andy? Isn’t this as weird as hell?
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
Actually no it isn't. Fish can freak out when they get disturbed. I've watched fish have what appears to be heart attacks during acclimation only to survive. I've also had them do that and die. If the fish runs into say the glass or something solid, it very well can do enough damage to itself to die. To be honest, I wouldn't be handling or netting " new" fish until they have been with me for quite some time. The more you move them, the more they can get unnerved. If you need pics that bad, take them in their main tank so they don't need to be moved.Then I’ll have to think of another aquatic Christmas gift for you.
I had the saddest Angelfish experience ever the other day. I purchased two very pricey adult Veil Pinoys from a breeder down south. South of me that is, not of you. After photographing one , I needed to move it to a big tank while I photographed the other. The second fish became very agitated when the net was inserted into the tank. Now I had netted this fish twice before and had my hand in and out of the tank rearranging plants. It was docile and practically swam into the net.
So this extreme agitation upon insertion of the net was quite surprising. I returned less than a minute after moving the one and the other was attempting to jump out of the water. I have not completely closed the lid after netting the other fish. I did and the fish disappeared behind the dense plants at the rear of the tank. This was not really surprising. However, upon closer inspection, the fish was dead. Prior to this point it appeared to be in excellent health and ate well that morning. This was a very large rather expensive Angelfish, in fact, the biggest and most pricey one I owned. So it all came as a terrible shock and disappointment to me.
I contacted the breeder who said that for whatever reason the net freaked the fish out and it banged its head against the glass and killed itself. He said this is very rare, but he has witnessed it a few times. I suppose nothing else makes sense. Until the insertion of the net when he became highly agitated, this fish was in excellent condition and behaved as would any other fish. What do you think Andy? Isn’t this as weird as hell?
There's an old expression that I usually use for saltwater hobbyists but it really applies to all fish keepers: " The less you mess, the greater the success." Fish are not animals that enjoy being handled. Some of the more intelligent ones ( i.e. Oscars) may instigate it but for the most part, they want to go the other way when they see things that are not food. Unfortunately you suffered the most common example of Murphy's law for fish keepers: The most expensive or your favorite fish will die first in a tank when nothing is wrong.
they were in a QT tank that doubles as a photo tank. Never in my life have I seen a fish become so distressed. I’ve always found P.scarlare the easiest to net. Not sure if that means they’re stupid or smart. Could be a smart move because I’ll net them sooner or later.
Here’s a pic of the survivor. The other was very similar.
Dang, on other iPad. I’ll send it from there,
Here’s a pic of the survivor. The other was very similar.
Dang, on other iPad. I’ll send it from there,
Andy Sager
Aquarium Advice Addict
I guess I've been around more fish than you.
Besides breeding, I also was a collector for awhile so you see traits in fish when they are in the wild and to carefully collect them, you need to understand them. My partner and I were out collecting marine fish one day. He was on scuba gear and I was just snorkeling. I caught more fish than he did even tho he had the better equipment. On another trip, I used what's called an umbrella net that we used in NJ to collect Spearing to fish for Bluefish. This changed everything because the net was used in a way that the fish came to the net instead of us chasing the fish. We caught more fish that day and I never had left the boat. He only got in the water to let me know when to pull the net into the boat. LOL So you see a lot and over time, you learn a lot about a fish's mentality and habits and you adapt. When it comes to domesticated fish, you expect them to be different from wild ones but in reality, the differences are not that great. With Angelfish, not one person I know who has had them starting 30-40 years ago has said that today's Angels are better than the ones from " the old days." They are just weaker both genetically and physically. Back in the day, you could drop an Angelfish onto the floor, kick it down the hall a couple of times while trying to pick it up, finally get it back into the tank and the fish would just brush itself off and go about it's business like nothing happened. With today's fish, sadly, if you look at them wrong, they can die. Whenever I use this description to an " old timer", they never disagree because they did it themselves. LOL That's just the nature of the fish these days. You said you had netted this fish at least twice and had your hand in the tank and the fish was docile. Maybe that's because you scared the crap out of it when you did those things? Third time was the straw that broke the camel's back. If fish are in QT, they should be left alone to adjust. If the plants weren't in there before the fish were, I would have waited until the fish were out of QT before planting more. QT is an adjustment period for the fish so that they get used to lights and foods and maintenance practices, etc. Past that, they should be left alone IMO. When in QT, I don't even watch the fish up close. I am often in another room or using mirrors when they first come. I just leave them alone so they get settled. But maybe that's just me?
I'm just " The Incredible Mr. Limpet " in reverse. I was a fish that became a man. 
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