Dropsy with pinecone in fancy goldfish

[jas077]

Hello! Im new to goldfish getting dropsy. I didnt quite catch her symptoms sooner. Now, in last 7 days I treated her in a hospital tank with shallow water level, airstones, interpret anti bacterial dosage like it instructed. The hospital tank does not have a heater cuz the temperature is 15C (i heard higher temp lowers oxgyen.) can anyone help me out please?

The fish hasn’t recovered.. she is more swollen from her belly I’m really concern. I would have to wait 7 more days before I treat her with new meds. I don’t want to give up since she is still fighting through. Her body doesn’t tilt upside down. I want to help her.

 

[Andy Sager]

Hello! Im new to goldfish getting dropsy. I didnt quite catch her symptoms sooner. Now, in last 7 days I treated her in a hospital tank with shallow water level, airstones, interpret anti bacterial dosage like it instructed. The hospital tank does not have a heater cuz the temperature is 15C (i heard higher temp lowers oxgyen.) can anyone help me out please?

The fish hasn’t recovered.. she is more swollen from her belly I’m really concern. I would have to wait 7 more days before I treat her with new meds. I don’t want to give up since she is still fighting through. Her body doesn’t tilt upside down. I want to help her.

The problem with Dropsy is that Dropsy isn't really a disease, it's more a symptom of a bigger problem. When the fish's organs are effected and they stop working, the fish loses the ability to " osmoregulate" which means it can't push fluid out through it's cells. What happens is that the fluid just builds up inside the fish and once it reaches the point where it's expanding the skin, the scales extend giving that pinecone appearance. Sadly, once the fish reaches that point, the recovery rate even with the best medications is extremely low. In order to treat " dropsy", it needs to be caught very early on which ironically, most cases aren't diagnosed until it's too late.
If your water's pH is outside of the 7.0-7.5 range, I'm afraid you were using the wrong medication. If your water's pH is outside that range, I'd consult your local Aquatic Veterinarian and get a medication that works best in the pH and Hardness of your water. Depending on how far along the dropsy has progressed, they may also be able to draw out some of the fluid to give the fish a chance while a new medication is being administered. As I said tho, once pineconing gets severe, the prognosis is poor at best.

As for the cause, one of the most common causes of organ failure is an internal bacterial infection with poor water quality being the 2nd most common cause. Internal infections can be caused by improper diet, injury or parasites. Let's start with what have you been feeding the fish ( food type and frequency)? Is this fish alone in the main tank or if not, what other fish are in with him/her? Has the fish had any parasite issues in the past year? Water quality: how often do you change water in the main tank? ( How much and how often.) How big is the main tank? What is the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate level in the main tank?
Let's start there.

 

[jas077]

The problem with Dropsy is that Dropsy isn't really a disease, it's more a symptom of a bigger problem. When the fish's organs are effected and they stop working, the fish loses the ability to " osmoregulate" which means it can't push fluid out through it's cells. What happens is that the fluid just builds up inside the fish and once it reaches the point where it's expanding the skin, the scales extend giving that pinecone appearance. Sadly, once the fish reaches that point, the recovery rate even with the best medications is extremely low. In order to treat " dropsy", it needs to be caught very early on which ironically, most cases aren't diagnosed until it's too late.
If your water's pH is outside of the 7.0-7.5 range, I'm afraid you were using the wrong medication. If your water's pH is outside that range, I'd consult your local Aquatic Veterinarian and get a medication that works best in the pH and Hardness of your water. Depending on how far along the dropsy has progressed, they may also be able to draw out some of the fluid to give the fish a chance while a new medication is being administered. As I said tho, once pineconing gets severe, the prognosis is poor at best.

As for the cause, one of the most common causes of organ failure is an internal bacterial infection with poor water quality being the 2nd most common cause. Internal infections can be caused by improper diet, injury or parasites. Let's start with what have you been feeding the fish ( food type and frequency)? Is this fish alone in the main tank or if not, what other fish are in with him/her? Has the fish had any parasite issues in the past year? Water quality: how often do you change water in the main tank? ( How much and how often.) How big is the main tank? What is the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate level in the main tank?
Let's start there.

Since I started the treatment for 7 days she hadn’t been fed. Today marks day 8. With my research, giving her food would mean more pressure on her organs. She is alone in hospital tank with 74ltr. No parasite issue that I noticed. I haven’t check water parameters yet but I can quickly check that today. Since I treated her with anti bacterial (interpret) I only kept like shallow water enough for her to swim around and did 30% water change today as its the end of medication course.

Thank you for replying quick!

 

[Andy Sager]

Since I started the treatment for 7 days she hadn’t been fed. Today marks day 8. With my research, giving her food would mean more pressure on her organs. She is alone in hospital tank with 74ltr. No parasite issue that I noticed. I haven’t check water parameters yet but I can quickly check that today. Since I treated her with anti bacterial (interpret) I only kept like shallow water enough for her to swim around and did 30% water change today as its the end of medication course.

Thank you for replying quick!

Check the pH before retreating. If the pH is out of that range, using that med is useless.
At this point, we need to figure out why the fish got sick so the other questions I asked about were in regards to the main tank, not the hospital tank.

 

[jas077]

Check the pH before retreating. If the pH is out of that range, using that med is useless.
At this point, we need to figure out why the fish got sick so the other questions I asked about were in regards to the main tank, not the hospital tank.

Oh sorry for misunderstanding,

Let's start with

1. what have you been feeding the fish ( food type and frequency)?

- Flake food once a day and sinking pellet once a day. Small quantity with twice a day. Someday I give them green peas and broccoli.

2. Is this fish alone in the main tank or if not, what other fish are in with him/her?
- with her there us three more fancy goldfish.


3. Has the fish had any parasite issues in the past year?

- None

4. Water quality: how often do you change water in the main tank? ( How much and how often.)

How big is the main tank?

- Main tank is 120 ltr, I change 30% of water every 2 weeks.

What is the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate level in the main tank?

I don’t have the measuring kit but the other fish are doing fine, just this one fish started showing signs of dropsy.

 

[Andy Sager]

Oh sorry for misunderstanding,

Not a problem All info is good to know.

Let's start with

1. what have you been feeding the fish ( food type and frequency)?

- Flake food once a day and sinking pellet once a day. Small quantity with twice a day. Someday I give them green peas and broccoli.

This is actually not enough food to keep them healthy. Goldfish do not have a digestive system like other fish ( they lack a stomach for storing food for later digestion) so they need multiple feedings per day. The fish should be fed as much as they can eat in 1to2 minutes 3 to4 times per day at least.

2. Is this fish alone in the main tank or if not, what other fish are in with him/her?
- with her there us three more fancy goldfish.

This means we can't rule out internal injury caused by another fish.

3. Has the fish had any parasite issues in the past year?

- None

4. Water quality: how often do you change water in the main tank? ( How much and how often.)

How big is the main tank?

- Main tank is 120 ltr, I change 30% of water every 2 weeks.

This is where we run into a big problem. Goldfish, when fed properly, are very dirty fish so the more water they are in, the longer it takes for the water to go foul. Your tank is the recommended size for a single "fancy" (ie Oranda, Lionhead, Ryunkin, etc) goldfish. For the 4 you have, they should be in a tank at least 280 liters. The larger the better. As for the water change amounts and frequency, that 30% should be weekly or even twice weekly depending on the water parameters. Goldfish need clean water to stay healthy.

What is the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate level in the main tank?

I don’t have the measuring kit but the other fish are doing fine, just this one fish started showing signs of dropsy.

Unfortunately, "but the other fish are doing fine" is not how you judge the health of a tank. You have to consider that these goldfish are all man made creations so their genetics have been manipulated over time. This means that some fish may be genetically inferior to others and more susceptible to poor water quality than healthier lines. It's similar to the "Canary in the coal mine" where miners kept Canary birds in the mines to show them when the air quality was unhealthy. If the bird died, the men, still alive, needed to get out and get out fast. So just like the men in the mine doesn't mean the mine is safe, the other fish still doing okay isn't a sign that there is nothing wrong with the tank. I suggest you get a good liquid test kit ( API and Fritz Aquatics master kits are typically the ones most frequently used by hobbyists) and keep tabs on Ammonia and Nitrates. With goldfish, because of the amount of food that is necessary to feed, a healthy bed of nitrifying microbes will be converting all that ammonia from the "poo" eventually to nitrates. Some nitrates is safe, a lot of nitrates is not. You really don't want the level to be above 40 ppm unless you are keeping live plants that need the nitrates for food. For them, a nitrate level of 5 to 10 ppm is usually enough. Without plants, the lower the better.

So there are really a few items that may have caused this fish to get unhealthy that it will be hard to isolate which one(s) caused this. You now have a game plan on how to move forward to hopefully keep the others healthy. ( I would seriously consider a much bigger tank or rehoming at least 2 of the remaining 3 fish. Not to sound like a " Debbie Downer" but I don't hold much hope for the one with dropsy so I wouldn't rehome all of the remaining fish just yet. ) If the bigger tank is not an option for you, I'd plan on doing water changes at least 2 to 3 times a week to keep the other 3 fish healthy and don't add any more fish.

Hope this helps.

 

[jas077]

Not a problem All info is good to know.

This is actually not enough food to keep them healthy. Goldfish do not have a digestive system like other fish ( they lack a stomach for storing food for later digestion) so they need multiple feedings per day. The fish should be fed as much as they can eat in 1to2 minutes 3 to4 times per day at least.

This means we can't rule out internal injury caused by another fish.



This is where we run into a big problem. Goldfish, when fed properly, are very dirty fish so the more water they are in, the longer it takes for the water to go foul. Your tank is the recommended size for a single "fancy" (ie Oranda, Lionhead, Ryunkin, etc) goldfish. For the 4 you have, they should be in a tank at least 280 liters. The larger the better. As for the water change amounts and frequency, that 30% should be weekly or even twice weekly depending on the water parameters. Goldfish need clean water to stay healthy.

Unfortunately, "but the other fish are doing fine" is not how you judge the health of a tank. You have to consider that these goldfish are all man made creations so their genetics have been manipulated over time. This means that some fish may be genetically inferior to others and more susceptible to poor water quality than healthier lines. It's similar to the "Canary in the coal mine" where miners kept Canary birds in the mines to show them when the air quality was unhealthy. If the bird died, the men, still alive, needed to get out and get out fast. So just like the men in the mine doesn't mean the mine is safe, the other fish still doing okay isn't a sign that there is nothing wrong with the tank. I suggest you get a good liquid test kit ( API and Fritz Aquatics master kits are typically the ones most frequently used by hobbyists) and keep tabs on Ammonia and Nitrates. With goldfish, because of the amount of food that is necessary to feed, a healthy bed of nitrifying microbes will be converting all that ammonia from the "poo" eventually to nitrates. Some nitrates is safe, a lot of nitrates is not. You really don't want the level to be above 40 ppm unless you are keeping live plants that need the nitrates for food. For them, a nitrate level of 5 to 10 ppm is usually enough. Without plants, the lower the better.

So there are really a few items that may have caused this fish to get unhealthy that it will be hard to isolate which one(s) caused this. You now have a game plan on how to move forward to hopefully keep the others healthy. ( I would seriously consider a much bigger tank or rehoming at least 2 of the remaining 3 fish. Not to sound like a " Debbie Downer" but I don't hold much hope for the one with dropsy so I wouldn't rehome all of the remaining fish just yet. ) If the bigger tank is not an option for you, I'd plan on doing water changes at least 2 to 3 times a week to keep the other 3 fish healthy and don't add any more fish.

Hope this helps.

Thats very helpful thank you very much. I’m gonna go better and opt in for a bigger fish tank 280 ltr and get those API kits. So with the dropsy fish I should consider euthanasia her?

 

[Andy Sager]

Thats very helpful thank you very much. I’m gonna go better and opt in for a bigger fish tank 280 ltr and get those API kits. So with the dropsy fish I should consider euthanasia her?

Before doing that, I'd first try to get your pH level to know if the med you used was going to do anything productive. ( anything outside of 7.0-7.5 and that answer is No. ) If your pH is within that range, then I would consider euthanizing. If it's out of that range, I would try to contact an aquatic vet and see if they can prescribe something that would work in your pH range before considering euthanizing ( especially if this is an expensive exotic fish). I'd take a sample of your hospital tank and main tank's water to a local fish store for testing to see if they are different.
As for the API kits, they make a " master" kit which is usually cheaper than getting each test kit separately. Save yourself some money. It comes with a high pH and a low pH test so depending on what pH your test results show, you will only need to use one of those tests. Also, if you are getting this kit from a shop, look at the expiration dates on the reagents. You want to get the kit with the reagents with the longest expiration dates. The fresher the reagents the better.

Hope this helps and keep us posted.

 

[jas077]

Before doing that, I'd first try to get your pH level to know if the med you used was going to do anything productive. ( anything outside of 7.0-7.5 and that answer is No. ) If your pH is within that range, then I would consider euthanizing. If it's out of that range, I would try to contact an aquatic vet and see if they can prescribe something that would work in your pH range before considering euthanizing ( especially if this is an expensive exotic fish). I'd take a sample of your hospital tank and main tank's water to a local fish store for testing to see if they are different.
As for the API kits, they make a " master" kit which is usually cheaper than getting each test kit separately. Save yourself some money. It comes with a high pH and a low pH test so depending on what pH your test results show, you will only need to use one of those tests. Also, if you are getting this kit from a shop, look at the expiration dates on the reagents. You want to get the kit with the reagents with the longest expiration dates. The fresher the reagents the better.

Hope this helps and keep us posted.

Thank you so much!! These tips and your quick reply are super helpful. I’m gonna take your advice and keep updated here ☺

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you so much!! These tips and your quick reply are super helpful. I’m gonna take your advice and keep updated here ☺

I try to check in here at least daily ( sometimes more than once a day) so if you have more questions, just ask. I'm not the only one here that can answer you.

 

[jas077]

I try to check in here at least daily ( sometimes more than once a day) so if you have more questions, just ask. I'm not the only one here that can answer you.

Heyy here’s an update:

1) I checked the PH of the hospital tank it came to 7.0 so its a level to keep eye on and do water change?
2) In the mean time, I made sure the goldfish got good heating temperature around 20-22 C and slightly added epsom salt to hospital tank.

This slowly healed one side of the fish so her pinecone has now completely gone on right side.

3) Lately, I’m doing water changes as required (daily for me), keep the water just enough for her to swim around and not add more pressure on her body. I have been feeding her some green peas and some flakes submerge in water. I noticed she is so active now and with epsom salt bath, she has her pinecone healing on the other side too!!

Any thoughts on what has happened?

- Epsom salt is USP grade and with no scent.
- I have only been doing 15mins salt bath in a seperated 10 litre bucket with 2 teaspoon salt with airstone in the bucket so she can breathe. I watch her closely to check for any stress.

 

[Andy Sager]

Heyy here’s an update:

1) I checked the PH of the hospital tank it came to 7.0 so its a level to keep eye on and do water change?
2) In the mean time, I made sure the goldfish got good heating temperature around 20-22 C and slightly added epsom salt to hospital tank.

This slowly healed one side of the fish so her pinecone has now completely gone on right side.

3) Lately, I’m doing water changes as required (daily for me), keep the water just enough for her to swim around and not add more pressure on her body. I have been feeding her some green peas and some flakes submerge in water. I noticed she is so active now and with epsom salt bath, she has her pinecone healing on the other side too!!

Any thoughts on what has happened?

- Epsom salt is USP grade and with no scent.
- I have only been doing 15mins salt bath in a seperated 10 litre bucket with 2 teaspoon salt with airstone in the bucket so she can breathe. I watch her closely to check for any stress.

As I stated, if the pH of the water was in that 7.0-7.5 range, the medication you used would have a chance of working. Between the medication and the epsom salt, whatever was causing the fish to retain fluids must have been corrected. YAY!!!!!! If the fish is eating and the pineconing is subsiding as well, I'd continue doing just what you are doing until the pineconing is 100% gone. Just keep that water pH in the 7.0-7.5 range so that the medication can work.

 

[jas077]

As I stated, if the pH of the water was in that 7.0-7.5 range, the medication you used would have a chance of working. Between the medication and the epsom salt, whatever was causing the fish to retain fluids must have been corrected. YAY!!!!!! If the fish is eating and the pineconing is subsiding as well, I'd continue doing just what you are doing until the pineconing is 100% gone. Just keep that water pH in the 7.0-7.5 range so that the medication can work.

YYAYA!! That’s great to hear and thank you now I understand it.