Fish slowly dying

[Deepdive]

Dear members,

My 8 month first tank was doing well and death was rare for me. But a few weeks ago i bought some cory sterbai. They started acting weird and dying off. Stuff like sitting at the surface. And hanging sidewards at the top.

But now more have dropped off. Not in big numbers or anything. But enough to warrant attention. I found 2 dead inpaichthys kerri and only see 3 now. So those im not seeing are probably dead too (4). Also found another one fish and one guppy.

So that is quite a lot since that time. I tried to find if a disease enteren but couldnt find any leads.


Tank info:

720 litres and planted.
My ammonia, nitrates and nitrites are 0.
Ph, kh etc are also normal.
Using a oase biomaster and a another small filter for flow.
Cleaned filters(squeeze) and did water changes.
Vacuumed.

Tankmates:
Bristlenoses
gourami lalius single female
otocinclus
apistogramma cacatuoides pair
guppy and mollies
Ellioti pair
angelfish pair
three spot gourami pair
Cory sterbais and gold stripes
A lone accident geophagus Steindachneri.
Sturisoma and farlowella.
Kuhli's.
Some nerites and shrimp

No real agression besides the apisto's house. But even that isnt anything special.

Also added some pics of the cories.
Only the one in the net was dead. Despite the others looking like they were..

Any ideas what it could be.. it seems to be mostly going for my smaller fish.

 

[Andy Sager]

The first most likely suspect is that the Sterbai brought something in with them. The second clue is that the fish in pics 5-8 looks skinny and appears to have some internal bleeding right behind the pelvic fins. This sadly, is typical in catfish diseases. That means there was some internal issue ( parasitic or bacterial). These things can both spread when a fish eats the infected fish's feces or flesh after dying.

For a tank only being 8 months old and probably fully cycled for only 4 months +/-, you have a rather large bioload. I can't say that there is a direct correlation in this case but when the nitrifying microbe bed ( a.k.a. the Biological filter) gets overwhelmed, the water quality goes down and can do harm to the fish even tho it's only short lived. Thankfully ( and unfortunately) , the nitrifying microbe reproduce quickly and unless you have a monitor on the tank that measures the ammonia and nitrites 24/7, you may not catch the rises when you test the water days later.

Regarding your fish, when you say " pair", do you mean a mated pair or just 2 fish? You also have fish that are not the best tankmates. For example, Angelfish and Guppies are not a good mix. The shrimp and the Geophagus are not a good mix. If these pairs are male and female pairs, you have too many potential breeding pairs even tho you have a larger aquarium.

Regarding your water: there is no such thing as water being " normal". There are acceptable ranges but there is no acceptable range that fits all fish. When you see information saying that a fish's range is X to Z, that means that fish can live in those extreme ranges for short periods of time. The majority of the time, the fish live in a range between X & Z and you should aim for it being the middle of X & Z. This goes for Temperature, pH, GH, etc. So for example, if a fish lives in a Temperature range of 20C- 24C, you should set your tank for 22C.

Lastly, it's best to quarantine all new fish before adding them to your main tank. This helps prevent diseases from entering the main tank. In today's hobby, there are fish that are farm bred and raised and there are wild caught fish. Mixing these two is also a problem as some of the farmed fish have been known to have medication resistant strains of pathogens that wild caught fish do not have. So you could have say, ICH and use a " standard" ich medication to treat the outbreak but it only works on the wild fish and not the farmed fish. Needless to say this will pose a problem in your main tank if you assume that just because the one fish is cured that all the fish are cured. If you need more information on setting up a Quarantine tank, I address both Quarantine and hospital tanks in this thread: Quarantine tanks and Hospital tanks, are they really different?

Hope this helps.

 

[Deepdive]

The first most likely suspect is that the Sterbai brought something in with them. The second clue is that the fish in pics 5-8 looks skinny and appears to have some internal bleeding right behind the pelvic fins. This sadly, is typical in catfish diseases. That means there was some internal issue ( parasitic or bacterial). These things can both spread when a fish eats the infected fish's feces or flesh after dying.

For a tank only being 8 months old and probably fully cycled for only 4 months +/-, you have a rather large bioload. I can't say that there is a direct correlation in this case but when the nitrifying microbe bed ( a.k.a. the Biological filter) gets overwhelmed, the water quality goes down and can do harm to the fish even tho it's only short lived. Thankfully ( and unfortunately) , the nitrifying microbe reproduce quickly and unless you have a monitor on the tank that measures the ammonia and nitrites 24/7, you may not catch the rises when you test the water days later.

Regarding your fish, when you say " pair", do you mean a mated pair or just 2 fish? You also have fish that are not the best tankmates. For example, Angelfish and Guppies are not a good mix. The shrimp and the Geophagus are not a good mix. If these pairs are male and female pairs, you have too many potential breeding pairs even tho you have a larger aquarium.

Regarding your water: there is no such thing as water being " normal". There are acceptable ranges but there is no acceptable range that fits all fish. When you see information saying that a fish's range is X to Z, that means that fish can live in those extreme ranges for short periods of time. The majority of the time, the fish live in a range between X & Z and you should aim for it being the middle of X & Z. This goes for Temperature, pH, GH, etc. So for example, if a fish lives in a Temperature range of 20C- 24C, you should set your tank for 22C.

Lastly, it's best to quarantine all new fish before adding them to your main tank. This helps prevent diseases from entering the main tank. In today's hobby, there are fish that are farm bred and raised and there are wild caught fish. Mixing these two is also a problem as some of the farmed fish have been known to have medication resistant strains of pathogens that wild caught fish do not have. So you could have say, ICH and use a " standard" ich medication to treat the outbreak but it only works on the wild fish and not the farmed fish. Needless to say this will pose a problem in your main tank if you assume that just because the one fish is cured that all the fish are cured. If you need more information on setting up a Quarantine tank, I address both Quarantine and hospital tanks in this thread: Quarantine tanks and Hospital tanks, are they really different?

Hope this helps.

Thanks,

I was afraid of that.. i did qt them and used esha 2000. Most meds are precription only here.

The 8 months is without the cycling period. I also doubt that this is it, since it specifically happened when the sterbais came in.

When i say pair i just mean 2 of them. And its isnt always male and female, simply because its hard to gender. The apistogramma's had nests.

Most of them are also still young. Well everyone, some just grow faster than others.

Funnily enough the Geophagus is the biggest wuss. He wasnt intended, but the lfs gave him by accident and i only found out later... the shrimp are also larger. The guppies are for now, my girlfriend has a 40 g for them.

With the okay parameters i just meant they are in my intended range.

Funnily enough i saw your thread and based my qt and hospital tanks around that. I also put them in a hospital tank once it started, but they all passed.

do you have any idea what i could do now? A sort of med.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks,

I was afraid of that.. i did qt them and used esha 2000. Most meds are precription only here.

I would locate a good fish Vet then. Maybe @Aiken Drum has some recommendations? Looking at what the esha 2000 treats, it appears most are external diseases and you would have needed to use something for internal diseases. Most external bacteria are Gram + while most internal bacteria are gram -. I also noticed that the product is for freshwater only, not saltwater so it probably does not work at higher pH levels as marine tanks are kept at 8.0 and higher and are in what's considered hard water. If you don't use the proper med for the water parameters, it doesn't work.

The 8 months is without the cycling period. I also doubt that this is it, since it specifically happened when the sterbais came in.

Let's start with the basics because unless your pH is under 5.0, there has been some nitrification going on in 8 months and if the pH is under 5.0, that is the wrong parameter for Sterbai Catfish. Also, what are your GH, KH and pH numbers?

When i say pair i just mean 2 of them. And its isnt always male and female, simply because its hard to gender. The apistogramma's had nests.

Well, the good news is that you are not talking male & female pairs because breeding pairs of almost any fish can get aggressive towards tankmates when spawning. :^0

Most of them are also still young. Well everyone, some just grow faster than others.

Funnily enough the Geophagus is the biggest wuss. He wasnt intended, but the lfs gave him by accident and i only found out later... the shrimp are also larger. The guppies are for now, my girlfriend has a 40 g for them.

With the okay parameters i just meant they are in my intended range.

Okay, but is YOUR intended range the right range for the fish

Funnily enough i saw your thread and based my qt and hospital tanks around that. I also put them in a hospital tank once it started, but they all passed.

Then you got some top notch information there How long did you quarantine the catfish? Where they new arrivals where you got them from?

do you have any idea what i could do now? A sort of med.

For now, I would not add any new fish and as I mentioned at the top, I would try to locate a vet in your area that deals with fish so you can get better medicines. See what you have available in the Netherlands specifically for internal or Gram - diseases. I know there are medicated foods on the market but not sure if they are available in your area. Looking at the eSha product line for the Netherlands, I didn't see any of their products that would have treated an internal bacterial infection.

Hope this helps.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I'm sorry, I can't recommend any vets in The Netherlands. I did visit Amsterdam in the 90s once, but that's as far as it goes.

Esha2000 isn't going to fix anything serious. I've used it to treat minor things, but they are the sorts of ailments that will sort themselves with good water quality anyway, so it just helps things not get worse. Its good for quarantine just to clear anything up that might go unnoticed.

Waterlife and Esha products are going to be the more likely products to be effective you can get over the counter. Esha do some effective treatments against specific infections, but as a general antibiotic Esha2000 isnt going to be all that effective.

Id look at Waterlife Myxazin as a better broad spectrum treatment, but you really need to identify the problem early and get the correct targetted treatment. Myxazin will stain everything green, so treat in a hospital tank if you can.

 

[Deepdive]

I would locate a good fish Vet then. Maybe @Aiken Drum has some recommendations? Looking at what the esha 2000 treats, it appears most are external diseases and you would have needed to use something for internal diseases. Most external bacteria are Gram + while most internal bacteria are gram -. I also noticed that the product is for freshwater only, not saltwater so it probably does not work at higher pH levels as marine tanks are kept at 8.0 and higher and are in what's considered hard water. If you don't use the proper med for the water parameters, it doesn't work.

Let's start with the basics because unless your pH is under 5.0, there has been some nitrification going on in 8 months and if the pH is under 5.0, that is the wrong parameter for Sterbai Catfish. Also, what are your GH, KH and pH numbers?


Well, the good news is that you are not talking male & female pairs because breeding pairs of almost any fish can get aggressive towards tankmates when spawning. :^0


Okay, but is YOUR intended range the right range for the fish

Then you got some top notch information there How long did you quarantine the catfish? Where they new arrivals where you got them from?

For now, I would not add any new fish and as I mentioned at the top, I would try to locate a vet in your area that deals with fish so you can get better medicines. See what you have available in the Netherlands specifically for internal or Gram - diseases. I know there are medicated foods on the market but not sure if they are available in your area. Looking at the eSha product line for the Netherlands, I didn't see any of their products that would have treated an internal bacterial infection.

Hope this helps.

Yeah, i mostly used Esha because its the most general thing i could get. Since i didnt know what it is. My ph is 7 btw.

Esha was used in the hospital tank. But now since others might be infected, the hospital tank is kinda small. And in the main i have snails and shrimps to worry about.

My apisto can indeed get agressive. But it really isnt that much. Just scares them away in a small corner.

But yeah too many would probably stress out the non cichlids.

I did qt them too short. About 2 weeks. And they were new at my lfs. The apisto i brought them were gone fast. So except non popular fish everything is gone fast. Unless its in qt. And they were pretty small.

Yeah, med wise its hard to find ones with the good stuff. Most is just snake oil. Anything with actual strong meds isnt there. But ill check for some specific stuff now since i now have an idea what it could be.

 

[Deepdive]

I'm sorry, I can't recommend any vets in The Netherlands. I did visit Amsterdam in the 90s once, but that's as far as it goes.

Esha2000 isn't going to fix anything serious. I've used it to treat minor things, but they are the sorts of ailments that will sort themselves with good water quality anyway, so it just helps things not get worse. Its good for quarantine just to clear anything up that might go unnoticed.

Waterlife and Esha products are going to be the more likely products to be effective you can get over the counter. Esha do some effective treatments against specific infections, but as a general antibiotic Esha2000 isnt going to be all that effective.

Id look at Waterlife Myxazin as a better broad spectrum treatment, but you really need to identify the problem early and get the correct targetted treatment. Myxazin will stain everything green, so treat in a hospital tank if you can.

Thanks.

That also isnt available here behind tbe counter. Its mostly Esha, sera, cerpofor, colombo etc and not the stuff with antibiotics.

Also checked for doctors and those are rare.. mostly Koi too.

 

[Deepdive]

Here are some other fish. Maybe something that you guys see that i dont.

would colombo bactyfex or alparex (seems to be external) help? And are they a risk to my cycle. Internal stuff is pretty hard to find or too specific.

Bonus question, do you guys knows if my angels are male of female?

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks.

That also isnt available here behind tbe counter. Its mostly Esha, sera, cerpofor, colombo etc and not the stuff with antibiotics.

Also checked for doctors and those are rare.. mostly Koi too.

But if they cover Koi, they will know about fish diseases.
Sadly, this is the result of the decades of misuse of medications by hobbyists that they needed to be more regulated. Here in the states, medicines have been changed from pill form to powder form to discourage humans using them on themselves. Luckily, they are still available so a fish can be medicated. In your part of the world, with them not being available at all past from a Vet, you are going to lose fish from lack of proper available treatment. This is why quarantining for even longer is going to be your best bet for keeping your main tank healthy. For me, I would not buy fish unless they were at a store for at least a week. Even if that means missing out on a fish because more will come another day. I let the store suffer the losses. They have recourse with their supplier that you may not have with the store. The store may also have a vet on staff or in council with that they have the proper meds to treat new arrivals. The goal is to have a healthy tank to admire, not a container full of sick fish.

 

[Andy Sager]

Here are some other fish. Maybe something that you guys see that i dont.

I'm a little concerned about what is hanging out of the lighter Angelfish's anus. If it is just one time thing, no big deal. If it is a continual thing and the color is a deeper red like in this picture, that could be camellanus worms and needs to be treated.

would colombo bactyfex or alparex (seems to be external) help? And are they a risk to my cycle. Internal stuff is pretty hard to find or too specific.

I am not familiar with these meds so I'd need to see the ingredients to know whether they would effect the nitrifying microbes.

Bonus question, do you guys knows if my angels are male of female?

Unfortunately, angelfish have become so inbred that typical characteristics of males and females are now found on both genders. It's only when their breeding tubes are exposed that you can be 100% positive as to their sex. That said, based on body shape, if I were to hazard a guess, I would say they are both females.

 

[Deepdive]

"Unfortunately, angelfish have become so inbred that typical characteristics of males and females are now found on both genders. It's only when their breeding tubes are exposed that you can be 100% positive as to their sex. That said, based on body shape, if I were to hazard a guess, I would say they are both females."

That is new... i would have noticed it.

Also im prepping a new tank. And i noticed that it was showing any ammonia. So i used an old tetra test to check... the yellow is colombo. The tests were the new tank btw. Gonna do the other when i get home.

 

[Andy Sager]

"Unfortunately, angelfish have become so inbred that typical characteristics of males and females are now found on both genders. It's only when their breeding tubes are exposed that you can be 100% positive as to their sex. That said, based on body shape, if I were to hazard a guess, I would say they are both females."

That is new... i would have noticed it.

Also im prepping a new tank. And i noticed that it was showing any ammonia. So i used an old tetra test to check... the yellow is colombo. The tests were the new tank btw. Gonna do the other when i get home.

Make sure the test reagents weren't expired. Expired reagents can give you a false reading.

 

[Deepdive]

Make sure the test reagents weren't expired. Expired reagents can give you a false reading.

The colombo i bought 2 weeks ago. The other is older, but i believe that one more. I dosed water to check of it would give a reading.. nope. No ammonia after adding ammonia.

But maybe the kit itself was older. Gonna use the old test on my main when i get home.

 

[Deepdive]

Make sure the test reagents weren't expired. Expired reagents can give you a false reading.

Could it be finrot bacterial infection?

Just saw a cory swirling around, falling over. Swimming and falling over. Then dying. It seems like fins are torn.

Also my geo has been really shy all of a sudden..

 

[Andy Sager]

Could it be finrot bacterial infection?

Just saw a cory swirling around, falling over. Swimming and falling over. Then dying. It seems like fins are torn.

Also my geo has been really shy all of a sudden..

I believe it's most likely a bacterial infection but not fin and tail rot. Fin and tail rot is not torn fins but a gradual eating of the fin by the bacteria. Unhealthy fish however can have torn fins from being unable to generate the nutrients to keep the fins healthy or from healthy fish trying to eat the sick one. It's internal and more common in Cory cats than you'd expect. The med you used would not treat this. None of the esha products I saw on their web page would treat this. You need an antibiotic that works on internal bacteria ( most likely gram - bacteria) and is effective in low alkaline pH water. If you were in the States, I would be recommending a combination of Kanamycin and Nitrifurazone because the Kanamycin is absorbed into the fish via the gills and the combination with nitrofurazone causes an unexplained " super" antibiotic. ( Unexplained because Kanamycin works best in higher Alkaline water. Nitrofurazone works best in low pH water but for some reason, there is a "sweet spot" of 6.8 to 7.2 where this combination works better than either med alone. My chemist hasn't been able to figure out why. ) Another way of treating internal bacteria is by using medicated foods. Do you have anything like that offered in the Netherlands?

 

[Deepdive]

I believe it's most likely a bacterial infection but not fin and tail rot. Fin and tail rot is not torn fins but a gradual eating of the fin by the bacteria. Unhealthy fish however can have torn fins from being unable to generate the nutrients to keep the fins healthy or from healthy fish trying to eat the sick one. It's internal and more common in Cory cats than you'd expect. The med you used would not treat this. None of the esha products I saw on their web page would treat this. You need an antibiotic that works on internal bacteria ( most likely gram - bacteria) and is effective in low alkaline pH water. If you were in the States, I would be recommending a combination of Kanamycin and Nitrifurazone because the Kanamycin is absorbed into the fish via the gills and the combination with nitrofurazone causes an unexplained " super" antibiotic. ( Unexplained because Kanamycin works best in higher Alkaline water. Nitrofurazone works best in low pH water but for some reason, there is a "sweet spot" of 6.8 to 7.2 where this combination works better than either med alone. My chemist hasn't been able to figure out why. ) Another way of treating internal bacteria is by using medicated foods. Do you have anything like that offered in the Netherlands?

Thanks.


Yeah afted my comment i started doubting rot since its too little for it to be the main reason.

The closest is baktopur direct from sera i think. Basically the only one that does something internal. That is what i was going to check.

After my post i also found more dead ones. My female apistogramma died and male is acting weird too.

Its basically hiding, not eating, swimming weird, falling, swimming weird (at least for cories and the male apisto moved weird but it isnt dead yet) and dying.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks.


Yeah afted my comment i started doubting rot since its too little for it to be the main reason.

The closest is baktopur direct from sera i think. Basically the only one that does something internal. That is what i was going to check.

After my post i also found more dead ones. My female apistogramma died and male is acting weird too.

Its basically hiding, not eating, swimming weird, falling, swimming weird (at least for cories and the male apisto moved weird but it isnt dead yet) and dying.

Unfortunately, this type of bacteria can be transferred when the fish poop and the other fish eat it or taste it. I'm afraid that they really need to be medicated quickly if you are going to save them. I suggest doing it in a hospital tank and doing a good cleanout of the main tank.

 

[Deepdive]

Thanks.

Big issue is that i dont have a size big enough for so many fish.. or getting them out of this one. With all the rocks and wait and size. Als the brakes of the tank.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks.

Big issue is that i dont have a size big enough for so many fish.. or getting them out of this one. With all the rocks and wait and size. Als the brakes of the tank.

Well, you have a problem. The good meds usually suppress the nitrifying bacteria so treating the main tank may cause an alternate issue. The fact that there are new fish ( your old ones) coming down with disease ( assuming your water parameters are still correct so not the cause) is a sign that the Sterbai may have had other issues that they brought into the main tank that we haven't discussed ( or figured on). Another issue is that with all the rocks and decorations, if you don't know how much water they are displacing, you may be under medicating or over medicating causing yet another potential issue. So your conundrum is potentially losing all the fish and needing to sterilize the tank and starting over or your fish hopefully recovering with whatever you do try. If it helps, it's a common problem that many have gone through. ( Even yours truly many, many, many ,many years ago. ) It's the potential end result for those who don't quarantine new fish long enough and part of the why I wrote that post about using hospital and quarantine tanks properly. It's Russian Roulette to the Nth degree.
With that, I'd get that Baktopur as quickly as possible and follow the directions ( because I have never used that medication) as listed and hope for the best.

 

[Deepdive]

Well, you have a problem. The good meds usually suppress the nitrifying bacteria so treating the main tank may cause an alternate issue. The fact that there are new fish ( your old ones) coming down with disease ( assuming your water parameters are still correct so not the cause) is a sign that the Sterbai may have had other issues that they brought into the main tank that we haven't discussed ( or figured on). Another issue is that with all the rocks and decorations, if you don't know how much water they are displacing, you may be under medicating or over medicating causing yet another potential issue. So your conundrum is potentially losing all the fish and needing to sterilize the tank and starting over or your fish hopefully recovering with whatever you do try. If it helps, it's a common problem that many have gone through. ( Even yours truly many, many, many ,many years ago. ) It's the potential end result for those who don't quarantine new fish long enough and part of the why I wrote that post about using hospital and quarantine tanks properly. It's Russian Roulette to the Nth degree.
With that, I'd get that Baktopur as quickly as possible and follow the directions ( because I have never used that medication) as listed and hope for the best.

Thanks. Lets hope for the best.

2 more fish died.. i saw one die and (as much as i hated it) researched... to help others. And i could rule out ammonia and other poisoning. Also took a sick fish to my lfs where there is one guy who seems to know his stuff. Checked my water and fish and basically said that the symptoms dont make much sense when looking at the common stuff. He would need to take some hard measures to really know. Which basically means taking a live fish under a microscope and take a look inside, which it obviously wouldnt survive. Since there was nothing on the outside nor the gills. Unless the fish i took wasnt sick like i thought... but my male apisto has been hiding non stop, not eating and lifeless since his mate died.

By a proces of elimination we came to the best meds, which arent available anymore. So i got the closest thing.

The sad thing is, i didnt want those extra cories. My wife wanted some more sterbais when i was there for something else. Since i was basically done adding fish altogether. And i almost had no deaths in this tank, my first tank too. So i was so close to it being a succes. If i didnt do that batch or it was okay i would have been settled for a long time.

I lost like 6 fish before this, in 8 months.. And one was because he jumped the bag and hurt itself (probably). The others were sensitive fish. One died in the bag(elephantnoses).

Now its 5 in the last 2 days. 17 after the cories came.