Gill flukes?

[confused_aquarist]

My fish is showing regular scratching of gills, mostly under the gill.
It is not scratching anywhere else on the body.

(Assuming a pathogen is involved) Is this likely to be gill flukes? Or, is it more likely to be another external parasite?

 

[Andy Sager]

My fish is showing regular scratching of gills, mostly under the gill.
It is not scratching anywhere else on the body.

(Assuming a pathogen is involved) Is this likely to be gill flukes? Or, is it more likely to be another external parasite?

It COULD be other parasites as Ick, Parasitic Copepods and Leeches among others all attack the gill area as well. Best thing is to treat the tank with Praziquantel. That can be found in numerous medications by multiple brands. Just follow the directions on the packaging.

 

[confused_aquarist]

It COULD be other parasites as Ick, Parasitic Copepods and Leeches among others all attack the gill area as well. Best thing is to treat the tank with Praziquantel. That can be found in numerous medications by multiple brands. Just follow the directions on the packaging.

Thank you. I thought that was the case. Have been treating with Praziquantel double dose for 3 days, no effect at all just worsening appetite. Never knew ich could affect gills without affecting skin, never knew there could be ich without any white spots. Or it could be some other parasite, maybe velvet. Being a beginner is a scary thing. Will proceed with malachite green.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you. I thought that was the case. Have been treating with Praziquantel double dose for 3 days, no effect at all just worsening appetite. Never knew ich could affect gills without affecting skin, never knew there could be ich without any white spots. Or it could be some other parasite, maybe velvet. Being a beginner is a scary thing. Will proceed with malachite green.

I wouldn't double dose Paziquantel. Dose as directed on the packaging. That could be the reason the fish are losing appetite. I'd do a water change to dilute the Prazi before adding any Malachite green.

As for Ick in the gills, the parasite just needs access to the fish's blood and the gills are actually the easiest place on a fish for the parasite to get it. What happens is that the first parasite may be in the gills until it leaves the fish to reproduce. ( They reproduce in the substrate.) After then, you will most likely see multiple white spots around the fish.
As for Velvet, is not usually on the gills but more along the back of the fish because that parasite uses light for photosynthesis. The best med for Velvet is copper. Copper will kill them, other meds may suppress the infestation but copper really kills them.

At this point however, let's discuss why the fish has the parasite to begin with. What specie of fish are you talking about? Is it a wild caught fish or a farmed fish? What are your water parameters? (pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) What other fish are in the tank? How long has the fish been scratching/ flashing?

 

[confused_aquarist]

Thank you for being willing to help with this. The fish are clown killifish, and I had several deaths, related or unrelated to the gill flashing, at the time of purchase 5 months ago, then a hexamita death (confirmed with a microscope) as well as a hexamita cure 4 months ago, and then now with this newly sick fish displaying gill flashing. It was bullied by alpha male.

Unfortunately it does not seem like this fish will make it, as the disease has been unresponsive to salt, PraziPro, flubendazole, metronidazole, malachite green, and a nitrofuran bath. I know what you’re going to say- but, I find it very hard to identify the precise pathogen causing gill disease/labored breathing on a small fish, and it seems there are often multiple pathogens involved at once, so I had to try all the options I could. The only thing that I haven’t tried is a gill-permeable antibiotic. I just don’t have access to it yet. I’m guessing this killifish is now suffering a severe bacterial infection, due to stress of being bullied, and even if the gill infection is being cured, too much damage has been done in internal organs be it related or unrelated to the gill symptoms. The gills are still very red and appetite is completely lost.

I do not see any spots on the back. The fish are farmed. It was housed with 11 other clown killifish in 56L tank, and ammonia/nitrite/nitrate has always been undetectable since day 1. When I bought them it was a set of 5. The fish arrived on a very hot day, and were anorexic from day 1 until death. 2 eventually recovered for a while and bred but both succumbed to hexamita, with one making an apparent full recovery with metronidazole. Gill scratching has been there since day 1. After the 1 hexamita death, there has not been any fish or fry death, even though 2~3 week old fry also occasionally show scratching behavior. I am so curious what made this bullied individual sick!

The dosing regimen had been:
3 days PraziPro double dose + 2 days metronidazole 5mg/L (a lot of gill scratching, some appetite)

Then, 1mg/L flubendazole 1 day (very little gill scratching, somewhat labored breathing, reduced appetite)

Now 0.5% salt + malachite green half dose + nitrofuran recommended dose now on day 2 (no gill scratching, very labored breathing, no appetite).

I probably made a lot of mistake with my dosing choices, albeit they were not made at random. I wonder how I should go about diagnosing this kind of disease in the future.

Overall, I’m suspecting a case of internal bacterial infection, with opportunistic velvet/ich taking over that is causing a secondary gill infection. Please let me know what you think.

 

[Andy Sager]

Well, I can't say you made any wrong medicine choices because the most common reason for flashing is parasites so you choose medicines that attack parasites. You've treated with the proper meds for internal worms, external parasites including flukes, ick, costia, trematodes, etc. You said the gills were red so that should rule out a fungus. The only last possibilities would be to use formalin in a bath using a separate tank or acriflavin for something external. Not many parasites, including worms, can handle formalin. As for the antibiotic, if your pH is above 7.2, nitrofurazones are not the best option as they have limited success in higher pH. Kanamycin would be the best choice for pH higher than 7.2 unless you can get chloramphenical. This chemical is stronger than Kanamycin but no longer available here in the U.S. over the counter in the pet trade. With that all said, the fish may have a pathogen ( flagellates) in the blood which is why it's not responding to external medicines. Proper treatment for that would be using methylene blue. To be honest, I've had very little success treating fish with blood issues with the toxicity of the meds and there is talk of Methylene blue being discontinued for the pet trade. ( recent batches of M. Blue on the market have been causing more deaths than saving them here. ) If M Blue is discontinued, I am unaware of any other meds that would treat blood pathogens.

The case history is an interesting story since you've had problems since day 1 with these fish. To get fish that are so anorexic from a farm leads one to believe that they came to you with medical issues. Because the fish is a farmed fish, the possibility of drug resistant pathogens is there. Because the fish is a farmed fish, it's possible you are dealing with a virus, potentially a new virus , vs a treatable pathogen since the fish are not curing under these meds ( or the meds themselves may be outdated or too old to work properly). It's really tough to say at this point unless you can get the meds tested or the fish properly analyzed to rule things out more than rule things in. Then there is possibility that this is not an external issue as I explained above.
As for why this particular fish, many pathogens lay dormant inside fish and just need the fish to be stressed, which lowers the fish's immunity to fight disease, to become activated. Bullying is very stressful on fish so in your case, that is most likely why this fish became so sick. It should have been removed from the tank to another tank when first spotted.
As for moving forward, if your other fish show flashing, I'd immediately separate them to a separate tank and treat with formalin and if that does not solve the problem in 24 hours, I'd start a M. Blue treatment if you can get it from a reliable source ( possibly from a veterinarian. )

Hope this helps.

 

[confused_aquarist]

Merry Christmas/Christmas Eve!

Again thank you for sharing all of this knowledge. It has helped me come to a few realizations, to reaffirm some previous thoughts, and to also just let out some real frustrations dealing with this disease series.

It’s funny that you mention viruses and systemic flagellates because I have thought about them, especially systemic flagellates. Here’s a footage of the mother clown killie having previously survived through spironucleus, taken on the day I began to dose salt and metronidazole (and nothing else).

IMG_0837.MOV

drive.google.com

The current sick male is also looking exactly like this, floating with labored breathing no appetite, just that it’s without stringy feces.

As to the mother’s road to recovery, it was long and cruel. This female killifish had been anorexic for 3 days with labored breathing, and stayed anorexic and floated upside down for another entire week. It was only until day 7 when metronidazole began to take effect, and then it began to correct its posture a little and breathe normally. Swim bladder issue remained for another entire week, and finally, a rectal prolapse ensued, which was corrected within hours using Epsom salt. I dosed metronidazole for entire 3 weeks, fearing that this pathogen might come back, whatever it might have been. Honestly, not even sure if the history is typical of systemic hexamita. After recovery it now behaves almost normally and is slowly regaining weight, spawns just like the other killies and eats crazy.

I’m tempted to think that the same pathogen hasn’t resolved completely, has gained some resistance. thus causing anorexia and not responding (well, it still may). Today, I performed another water change and this is what remains in the tank and I will not touch the tank at all for another week since I am at wits end and kanamycin is not arriving where I live:

0.5% Salt, 20ppm formalin, half dose malachite green, 5 mg/L metronidazole
(How on earth would I know what to dose! There are no other external signs, gill flashing maybe red herring, and nothing showed up in the last fecal sample)

Its condition is slightly better compared to how the mother was when metronidazole was started, and sick fish is being nursed by a slightly more experienced fishkeeper, so in theory, it could only recover better and faster. (joking of course)

In my defense as to why I did not separate the bully/bullied fish. “Well the hexamita must be gone and water is relatively clean, so if the fish starts flashing then I’ll just treat with PraziPro”.

(Obviously, not how things will work in my aquarium)

Fortunately, flashing have become less and less common (and I do still think this is velvet, I have had many tell me that it is common for killies with gill scratching being a tell-tale sign), and with this current experience I will also be installing a UV sterilizer, for sure.

Very perplexing to me. Probably a handful of different pathogens involved with some being systemic/resistant

Not hopeful, since males are skinny while females can just use stored eggs.

 

[Andy Sager]

Here's a post about velvet from a medicine company: Velvet/Oödinium .
The symptoms do sound like velvet but they can also be of other pathogens. To confirm it's velvet, turn off the light in the room and aquarium and use a good magnifying glass and a flashlight across the fish but not directly towards the fish. Shine from head towards the tail or the tail towards the head. You usually see velvet on the dorsal side of fish near the fin. You should see what appears to be a coating of yellow to rust colored " dust" on the fish if it's velvet. Many of the meds you've used are supposed to kill Velvet but in my experience, they usually don't. Meds containing Copper are the best tried and true method to kill Velvet. If velvet is confirmed, keep the light off on the aquarium and darken the room or tank as best you can so that the parasites can't photosynthesize food with the light. I will add that usually with oodinium ( velvet), it reproduces quickly and kills rapidly and usually effects all the fish almost simultaneously which is why I have my doubts.

Regarding the resurgence of the condition, not all meds will kill parasites at every stage of life. Resurgences are usually from hatching eggs that meds didn't kill or the treatment happened during a stage when the parasites are able to not be effected by medicines. This is mostly for external parasites however it can also be for intestinal worm eggs.

Regarding " In my defense as to why I did not separate the bully/bullied fish. “Well the hexamita must be gone and water is relatively clean, so if the fish starts flashing then I’ll just treat with PraziPro. " ,that's a very risky ideology. Bullied fish are a magnet for problems so you always remove them from the situation or you remove the bully to avoid future problems.

Keep us posted.

 

[confused_aquarist]

Sadly, has died overnight. I did the examination under a microscope, and it is not conclusive at all.

Samples cannot be sent for pathology (literally there are no such institutions anywhere close), dead for too long anyway, but still decided to do something. I saw not a single protozoan in any of gill slices. Probably because it would have been killed by the drug or maybe escaped. On fish scales there were a few bacterial colonies here and there, not that many, maybe outgrowth from being left overnight. Gill was in bad shape with many bacteria, though again corpse was left for too long. Nothing at all that stood to the eye, no tubercles, etc.

I'm not brave enough to cut open the fish, but cause of death could have been a virus or mycobacteria, or may be some other internal bacteria. Once in a while the fish in the main tank would begin to have mouth lesions, probably due to swimming against the glass, and they would start to get them when they become older. The lesion itself is harmless, does not spread but persist for weeks and months, eventually recovering when mucus is sloughed off but sometimes leaving behind a red scar. The young fish that have them also tend to flash more often, segregating away from group during feeding time, though after a while appear to gain immunity and naturally recover, flash less, entering back to the group.

My impression with these killies is that they are very sensitive, hard to raise. Which is not all how they're supposed to be, they're known to be tough, they all come from very severe environments and apparent usually don't get any diseases until they age and die. These disease experiences have been with 50% water change every 3 days and having clear water mostly devoid of bacteria, maintained that way since purchase. I'm suspecting some nasty pathogen outbreak causing diminished immunity in the group.

 

[Andy Sager]

Yes, wild killies are tough but you were not dealing with wild killies. That's one of the downsides of poor fish farming. If you don't get wild blood into the lines occasionally, the fish gets weaker and weaker the further down the line you go. Unfortunately, new pathogens and viruses have been created on fish farms. New resistant strains of common Bacteria and Parasites have been developed on fish farms. So just because a fish is farmed does not make it a top notch high quality fish. In fact, it's not even recommended anymore that farmed fish and wild caught fish be kept in the same tank because of these things. It's a shame because it wasn't always this way.
I do suggest that if another in your tank starts showing similar symptoms, as soon as you notice it, use the formalin to see if that knocks out whatever is on them before it gets too far along.

 

[confused_aquarist]

Yes, wild killies are tough but you were not dealing with wild killies. That's one of the downsides of poor fish farming. If you don't get wild blood into the lines occasionally, the fish gets weaker and weaker the further down the line you go. Unfortunately, new pathogens and viruses have been created on fish farms. New resistant strains of common Bacteria and Parasites have been developed on fish farms. So just because a fish is farmed does not make it a top notch high quality fish. In fact, it's not even recommended anymore that farmed fish and wild caught fish be kept in the same tank because of these things. It's a shame because it wasn't always this way.
I do suggest that if another in your tank starts showing similar symptoms, as soon as you notice it, use the formalin to see if that knocks out whatever is on them before it gets too far along.

I want to follow up with this because it is still a perplexing issue to me, and sadly, the last fish symptom history has been anything but conclusive.
The smallest fish of the group today was hiding under driftwood with fast breathing. Fast breathing stopped after light was turned off and fish returned to surface. I will isolate if the same behavior is seen again tomorrow- I have not seen flashing behavior from this fish.
However I still do see occasional flashing behavior from other fish, and I have not isolated them for treatment, simply because too many fish show with the symptom, and it has lasted for months with flashing becoming less and less frequent. I do not want to treat the whole tank because I am still not completely sure what is the issue, and having had the experience of the last sick fish deteriorating over the course of treatment, where bullying/gill issue was caught early, I am not comfortable to start whole tank treatment just yet. I tend to think that the fish immune system will deal with it for a while.

So I wonder what is the best treatment to give for the hiding individual, if indeed it turned out to be sick- cupramine, salt bath, or formalin+malachite green, or PraziPro plus antibiotic this time to prevent infection?
So sad that nothing has been learned, though something different will be tried for sure

 

[Andy Sager]

If you really suspect velvet/ oodinium, use the cupramine. Copper is the only med that definitely kills those parasites. If it works for the individual fish, then I'd treat the whole tank OR remove all the fish to a hospital tank treated with the cupramine and leave the main tank without fish for at least 6-8 weeks to starve out the parasite.

 

[confused_aquarist]

Update: the hiding stopped after introducing smaller fry into the tank so I'm not worried particularly about the hiding fish at the moment.

The thing is I'm suspecting everything at the same time (I know... this mess cannot get any worse) including whether I had dosed formalin properly during the last treatment. What I did was adding 1.5 mL of 10% formalin into 7L tank giving approximately (what I think is) 20~25 ppm, that's according to my calculation, but when I follow instruction of some other website and add x amount of 37% formalin the final ppm doesn't turn out to be 20~25ppm even though they say it is. So someone has got to be doing math incorrectly (most likely me).

Should I just have done a short formalin bath with a more concentrated formalin, rather than a long-term bath with 20ppm? What is typically done to treat for worms/unknown protozoan gill pathogens? I'm so lost. I wonder if malachite green would help at all when combined.

Also I've looked so many times and honestly do not see a white spot or golden spot. Is it typical for a fish to die before showing any ich/velvet signs?

 

[Andy Sager]

You hit the nail on the head..... you are thinking everything at one time vs ruling out things one at a time. Because you had the other fish die from similar symptoms, you know what doesn't work which helps rule out certain things providing that your meds were fresh and the fish/pathogens do not have resistance due to over exposure. To be effective, you need formalin to be at least 25-50 PPM in the water or possibly higher. The higher the PPM tho, the shorter the time the fish can safely be in the treatment. Typically, 1 ML of formalin 37% treats 10 U.S. gallons of water to 25 ppm.
There are caveats to this however:

• Treatment period
  Leave the formalin in the aquarium for 12 hours, then perform a 50% water change and replace the filters. Repeat the treatment two more times, for a total treatment period of nine days.
  
  
• Water temperature
  Formalin toxicity increases at higher water temperatures. If the water temperature is above 70°F (21°C), you should decrease the concentration of formalin.
  
  
• Degradation
  Formalin degrades more quickly in aerated aquariums. At 25 ppm, formalin completely degrades within 36 hours in an aerated aquarium.

Since you used a weaker concentration of formalin and are not sure if you reached the proper dosage you can't rule out that your original method won't work. I would try it again using the proper dosage.

Here is some more reading that may help you: Aquarium Medications Part 3 | Parasite & Chemical treatments

 

[confused_aquarist]

You hit the nail on the head..... you are thinking everything at one time vs ruling out things one at a time. Because you had the other fish die from similar symptoms, you know what doesn't work which helps rule out certain things providing that your meds were fresh and the fish/pathogens do not have resistance due to over exposure. To be effective, you need formalin to be at least 25-50 PPM in the water or possibly higher. The higher the PPM tho, the shorter the time the fish can safely be in the treatment. Typically, 1 ML of formalin 37% treats 10 U.S. gallons of water to 25 ppm.
There are caveats to this however:

• Treatment period
  Leave the formalin in the aquarium for 12 hours, then perform a 50% water change and replace the filters. Repeat the treatment two more times, for a total treatment period of nine days.
  
  
• Water temperature
  Formalin toxicity increases at higher water temperatures. If the water temperature is above 70°F (21°C), you should decrease the concentration of formalin.
  
  
• Degradation
  Formalin degrades more quickly in aerated aquariums. At 25 ppm, formalin completely degrades within 36 hours in an aerated aquarium.

Since you used a weaker concentration of formalin and are not sure if you reached the proper dosage you can't rule out that your original method won't work. I would try it again using the proper dosage.

Here is some more reading that may help you: Aquarium Medications Part 3 | Parasite & Chemical treatments

So I actually went ahead and did the math. If 1ml of 37% formalin treats 10 US gallons (38L), that means the final concentration of formalin is diluted to:
Final concentration = % formalin * dilution factor
37%*(1 ml/38000 ml) = 0.0010%
Which is 10 ppm. Not 25 ppm as it should be. I’m so lost.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Are you sure the required 25ppm is formalin, not the overall product?

If you work it out without factoring in the 37% concentration you get pretty close to 25ppm.

 

[Andy Sager]

As Aiken stated, I'm not sure you are using the correct formula. Formalin is actually made up of 3 ingredients. The typical concentration of formalin is 37% formaldehyde by weight, 6–13% methanol, and the rest water. You are not diluting the Formalin when you add it to the tank water, you are treating the volume of water with a pre measured amount of already diluted chemicals.

 

[confused_aquarist]

Are you sure the required 25ppm is formalin, not the overall product?

If you work it out without factoring in the 37% concentration you get pretty close to 25ppm.

Yes, I am sure. 37% formaldehyde is 370,000 ppm formaldehyde or 370,000 ppm formalin excluding methanol and water. You take 1 mL of this and dilute to 38,000 mL therefore it is being diluted by 1/38,000, meaning it will be approximately 10 ppm formaldehyde or 10 ppm formalin excluding methanol and water, not 25 ppm as suggested. If you are in doubt of this calculation, please show your calculation. I am just so lost.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I'm saying you don't need to do a calculation.

You are trying to achieve 25ppm of formalin, not formaldehyde. The fact that formalin is only 37% formaldehyde is irrelevant. Its 100% formalin.

When you are saying that your calculations don't work because of the difference between a 10% formaldehyde solution and a 37% formaldehyde solution, it's because they aren't giving you a dosage for a 25ppm level of formaldehyde, they are giving a dosage for 25ppm level of formalin.

Id stop trying to calculate dosages based on the concentration of active ingredient in the product, and stick to dosing the amount prescribed for the volume of water on the product you purchased.

 

[confused_aquarist]

Ok that makes a lot of sense now. It's weird how they would include methanol and water in the calculation, so odd.

As a side note, I think I have an answer as to why my previous fish didn't respond to any of the medicine! It's probably gill flukes, but they weren't drug-resistant. As a background my main tank is currently experiencing external parasite (likely the said gill flukes) in addition to one of the following: a very nasty bacteria or a virus that causes wasting.

In the main tank I've fixed the gill parasite issue with flubendazole, but now have a 2nd sick fish with wasting. This sick fish never recovered from gill parasite and still flashes in the quarantine tank even with flubendazole present.
What I'm trying to say is that antiparasitics like flubendazole and prazi do work on sick fish, but ONLY if they aren't immunocompromised. They're absolutely contingent upon a healthy immune system.

I tried formalin on this 2nd fish, and voila! It stopped flashing altogether (but still never eats). This shows formalin is more powerful than flubendazole as a temporary solution even if immune system is totally nonfunctional (it doesn't necessarily show it's better as a longterm solution though). The fish doesn't flash or shake its head, but I'm pretty sure it won't make it since it just looks so wasted/anorexic.

I think all of this shows how complicated the treatments can be and whether a drug works or not is totally different case by case contingent not just on drug resistance but also on fish health and presence of co-infections. All sick looking fish need to be quarantined on their own during main tank treatments to reduce pathogen load